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Ex-governor of Texas says he is "ashamed" he helped the rich (dubya) avoid Vietnam

post #1 of 54
Thread Starter 
"I'm very ashamed"

Said the ex-Gov, the video found in Windows Media HERE he admits to letting the well-to-do talk their way into the National Gaurd . . . as if we had any doubts about that happening, with such things as "Champagne Squadrons" etc

Anyway, here is from Barnes:
Quote:
Ben Barnes, a former lieutenant governor of Texas, apologized for his role in getting a young George W. Bush into the Texas Air National Guard while young men who were not from prominent or wealthy families "died in Vietnam."

"Let's talk a minute about John Kerry and George Bush, and I know them both," said Barnes in the video, which was filmed at a gathering of about 200 Kerry supporters in Austin on May 27. "I got a young man named George W. Bush into the Texas National Guard when I was lieutenant governor, and I'm not necessarily proud of that. But I did it. I got a lot of other people in the National Guard because I thought that was what people should do when you're in office, and you help a lot of rich people."

"And I walked to the Vietnam Memorial the other day," Barnes continued, "and I looked at the names of the people that died in Vietnam, and I became more ashamed of myself than I have ever been, because it was the worst thing I ever did, was help a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance get into the National Guard. And I'm very sorry about that, and I'm very ashamed, and I apologize to you as voters of Texas."

This is an old story (Barenes letting GWB into the gaurd), first broken in 99, but it seems relevant. Back then Barnes said that there was a Bush family friend (Sidney Alger) that approached him with the request . . . . so this precedes the SBV4B by quite a bit . . .

Its not the worst but it says alot about the difference between teh two 'characters' at the time, in the 70s.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #2 of 54
What? Bush avoided serving in Vietnam and Kerry tried to avoid serving in Vietnam but couldn't?
post #3 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
What? Bush avoided serving in Vietnam and Kerry tried to avoid serving in Vietnam but couldn't?

Im not sure where you got that? . . . if you watch the video he clearly says that Kerry could have very easily just chosen to get another degree and thereby get a deferment.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #4 of 54
Can anyone confirm that Bush is on record saying that family influence did not get him preferential treatment?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #5 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
What? Bush avoided serving in Vietnam and Kerry tried to avoid serving in Vietnam but couldn't?

Prove it, which I know you can't since you've already been proved wrong.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #6 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Prove it, which I know you can't since you've already been proved wrong.

Which part? What do you want proven?
post #7 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
What? Bush avoided serving in Vietnam and Kerry tried to avoid serving in Vietnam but couldn't?

Kerry voulenteered to go to Vietnam and requested swift boat duty.
Bush requested that he not be sent abroad.

Military records prove this beyond any doubt.
post #8 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Which part? What do you want proven?

Jesus, Scott, what the fuck?

Have your fun with pretending there is controversy about Kerry's medals, but claiming that asking to serve in Vietnam is a clever way to avoid service?

There is a point at which scurrilous political dirt turns into just nuts.

And not even interesting or entertaining nuts, just depressing alone in a room arguing with the sink nuts.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #9 of 54
Delusion is the only way he can avoid admitting he was wrong. The sad thing is Scott and Trumpt actually believe themselves. They're not lying. Not knowingly, anyway. They actually believe they are right.

They believe they are right to make statments like "Kerry tried to avoid going to Vietnam but couldn't" when there is factual, documented evidence that says otherwise. They actually believe that Bush performed his duty when there is absoloutely no factual evidence (where clearly there should be) that backs up this claim.

Their beliefs and claims are all based on faith.

On the faith that they cannot possibly be wrong.

On the faith that Kerry is a liar and Bush is honest.

Despite the evidence.

Despite the documented records.

Despite the arguments on the one hand that have been proven wrong, and the arguments on the other that have been fully corroborated.

Despite the fact that we have lifelong conservatives supporting Kerry, yet not a single Democrat has come out in support of Bush.

Despite all of this, the delusion continues.

I would definitely not avoid classification of such selective ignorance as a mental illness. These guys are not stupid. They just cannot, under any circumstances ever, no matter what the evidence, admit that they are wrong.

I feel sorry for the wives. I bet "I'm sorry, honey" has never been heard from a male in either of those households.
post #10 of 54
Quote:
I feel sorry for the wives. I bet "I'm sorry, honey" has never been heard from a male in either of those households.

++
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #11 of 54

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #12 of 54
Facts speak for themself even if the republicans are trying their best to spin history. one a hero the other not..... still amazed that 45% of people going for Bush with all his atrocities,lies,spin and poor poor record this past 4 years. I would rather randomly pick any person in the country to do a better job then Cheney/Bush. Cheney/Bush are the Chickenhawks. Chickenhawks find it easy to send someone else's kids to die for their lost cause but where were they when other chickenhawks needed them? thats right dodging the Wars. Cheney/Bush= Chickenhawks facts dont lie.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #13 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Cake
Kerry voulenteered to go to Vietnam and requested swift boat duty.
Bush requested that he not be sent abroad.

Military records prove this beyond any doubt.

He requested swift boat duty because at the time swift boats had easy duty and were not very involved in the war. He wanted to avoid the fighting.
post #14 of 54
It amazes me how the country can focus on this nonsense instead of the real issues. Hopefully we can sort out what each of theses clowns did 30 years ago prety soon so we can move on with the present and the future.
post #15 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Beige_G3
It amazes me how the country can focus on this nonsense instead of the real issues. Hopefully we can sort out what each of theses clowns did 30 years ago prety soon so we can move on with the present and the future.

Kerry is the one that made his Vietnam experience a major focus of his campaign.
post #16 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Beige_G3
It amazes me how the country can focus on this nonsense instead of the real issues. Hopefully we can sort out what each of theses clowns did 30 years ago prety soon so we can move on with the present and the future.

This is just what Bush wants,talk about something 30 years ago so he doesnt have to address the failures of the past 4 years but when we focus on 30 years ago we find Bush was shown favoritism,he dodged the war, and was missing from the guard........our president
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #17 of 54
Kerry is the one that brings it up over and over. He even knew that some veterans were still pissed off at him for his senate testimony. Yet he thought he could use Vietnam as his ace in the hole. It aint working.
post #18 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Kerry is the one that made his Vietnam experience a major focus of his campaign.

Well he has to tackle the issue of security, so his Vietnam experience is essential. Plus, I assume he'll expand on his campaign after the RNC. If he doesn't, then he's an idiot.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #19 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
He requested swift boat duty because at the time swift boats had easy duty and were not very involved in the war. He wanted to avoid the fighting.

So you mean when you said:
Quote:
"...Kerry tried to avoid serving in Vietnam but couldn't?"

you were lying?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #20 of 54
Making something a focus of your campaign invites scrutiny and discussion.

It does not provide carte blanche license for making shit up.

Or else, Scott, perhaps you would agree that because Bush has made the WOT a centerpiece of his campaign, that fully justifies MoveOn.org running a series of ads saying: "George Bush planned and funded the 9/11 attacks. I know. I was there".

I mean, after all, Bush brought it up, so anything goes, right?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #21 of 54
I was not pointing fingers at either candidate Scott. I just find it silly that the nation is spending its time debating what Kerry and Bush did during the VN war. I suspect that we will never really know the truth about this. If you are a Republican, you believe one group of vets. If you are a Democrat, you believe the other.
post #22 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Beige_G3
I was not pointing fingers at either candidate Scott. I just find it silly that the nation is spending its time debating what Kerry and Bush did during the VN war. I suspect that we will never really know the truth about this. If you are a Republican, you believe one group of vets. If you are a Democrat, you believe the other.



No.

The basic narrative of what these men did during Vietnam defines them. Kerry volunteered for service overseas, risking his life for what he thought was the right thing to do. According to the official Navy records, he served honorably. Kerry later led the anti-war movement at home after his experiences in Vietnam changed his opinion and the opinion of other veterans as well. By contrast, Bush used his upper-class connections to obtain a spot in the National Guard, while hundreds of thousands of poorer soldiers went to Vietnam-- tens of thousands of which died... He *is* the "fortunate son."



That's what it's all about for me.
post #23 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman




Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #24 of 54
If the past is ANY indication, I think avoiding the draft is actually a qualification for being president.


FYI: For the rest of the evening I recommend Bushmills and a decent lager chaser in between SIPS.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #25 of 54
Shawn, this is all a he said they said situation. As many vets will tell u Kerry is a dolt as will call him a hero. Yes, what Bush and Kerry really did may define them, but the truth is what? Bush did nothing during the war, that is clear, but I think important issues are getting lost while we decide if Kerry was a good soldier or not. We were not there, niether of us will ever know what really happened.
post #26 of 54
dmz let me tell you why I prefer Presidents who have been in the military. They are Commander in Chief. That's a pretty big responsibility. Like, the biggest one in the world. Duh? People who have been in the army and seen the horrors of war are usually less likely to want to start a war. They know the cost. Firsthand. But if they must, they will be more competent. Look at Bush. His advisors recommended way more troops in Iraq and guess what, he ignored them.

dmz would you like to go over to Iraq and die? Would you like to go to Vietnam and watch fellow soldiers rape and kill women and children?

Vietnam was bad. ok? there is no room for debate on it.
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #27 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
dmz let me tell you why I prefer Presidents who have been in the military. They are Commander in Chief. That's a pretty big responsibility. Like, the biggest one in the world. Duh? People who have been in the army and seen the horrors of war are usually less likely to want to start a war. They know the cost. Firsthand. But if they must, they will be more competent. Look at Bush. His advisors recommended way more troops in Iraq and guess what, he ignored them.

dmz would you like to go over to Iraq and die? Would you like to go to Vietnam and watch fellow soldiers rape and kill women and children?

Vietnam was bad. ok? there is no room for debate on it.

What bothers me is George said to the military and Cia where is the evidence for going into Iraq? what did they show him nothing? then he still kept going after it when the evidence was very week at best. Its clear to me there was no good evidence for War but George kept pushing and pushing WMDs and spin. Chickenhawks find it easy to go to war with someone else getting shot at. George and Cheney are Chickenhawks. America doesnt need a chickenhawk at the helm ever.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #28 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Beige_G3
Shawn, this is all a he said they said situation. As many vets will tell u Kerry is a dolt as will call him a hero. Yes, what Bush and Kerry really did may define them, but the truth is what? Bush did nothing during the war, that is clear, but I think important issues are getting lost while we decide if Kerry was a good soldier or not. We were not there, niether of us will ever know what really happened.

While I agree the political debate could be more productively directed towards the actual challenges facing the US, I completely reject the notion that this is a "he said/she said" discussion.

The official record is clear. The self contradictions of the people attacking Kerry is clear, as is their motivation. The numerous factual inaccuracies of these same people are there for all to see, and on the record.

It is vital that we not abandon the notion of objective truth. There is such a thing, just as there are concepts such as "the preponderance of evidence", "credible sources", and "documentary record".

If the swift boat liars can be reasonably credited with an "alternate theory" that requires us to suspend judgment, then virtually any historical event can be likewise debased.

All it requires is a group of participants that agree to roughly the same story.

And that's all, because that's all the swift boat liars have offered up. Not a shred of evidence more, and no plausible rebuttal of the actual evidence at hand.

So that if a group of disgruntled white supremacists, all whom had been residents of NYC on 9/11/01, were to come forward 30 years from now and simply assert that they had witnessed the black population of that city making preparations for the attack, clearly demonstrating foreknowledge of same, we would obliged to honor their version of events by holding out the possibility that the African American population of Manhattan had been in league with al Qaeda.

Not because there was the slightest shred of evidence, but because they said so. And reasonable people would be forced to say "Well, I guess we'll never know for sure. Some say no, some say yes, and that's just how we'll have to leave it."

Is that really what you want? Because by treating the swift boat lies like this, you are helping to engender the imaginative space that makes that possible.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #29 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
This is just what Bush wants,talk about something 30 years ago so he doesnt have to address the failures of the past 4 years but when we focus on 30 years ago we find Bush was shown favoritism,he dodged the war, and was missing from the guard........our president

pretty sure it's Kerry who keeps going back 30 years and failing to address the failures of the past 4 years. maybe if he tried that he'd be a bit more successful. right now his game plan sucks.


Quote:
Well he has to tackle the issue of security, so his Vietnam experience is essential. Plus, I assume he'll expand on his campaign after the RNC. If he doesn't, then he's an idiot.

there is no correlation there.
post #30 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
pretty sure it's Kerry who keeps going back 30 years and failing to address the failures of the past 4 years. maybe if he tried that he'd be a bit more successful. right now his game plan sucks.




there is no correlation there.


Sorry but I really do believe you've got that backwards there.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #31 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Sorry but I really do believe you've got that backwards there.

o really?

democrats keep saying that the past 4 years have been full of failures, bush is incompetant, and has all but doomed us......

yet Kerry takes any chance he gets to talk up his service, criticize bush for his avoiding service, and ignores going after the 4 years of failure.

this election should be easy. Kerry is messing up almost as bad as Gore
post #32 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
o really?

democrats keep saying that the past 4 years have been full of failures, bush is incompetant, and has all but doomed us......

yet Kerry takes any chance he gets to talk up his service, criticize bush for his avoiding service, and ignores going after the 4 years of failure.

this election should be easy. Kerry is messing up almost as bad as Gore

i agree on the point of his talking up his service, but HE does not talk down Bush's service . . . there was some media uproar about it that seemed semi-quashed by dental records and almost destroyed pay-stubs . . . but the only time that I know of where Kerry mentioned it was when he said 'if you want to talk about our service records than bring it on' (paraphrase)
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
o really?

democrats keep saying that the past 4 years have been full of failures, bush is incompetant, and has all but doomed us......

yet Kerry takes any chance he gets to talk up his service, criticize bush for his avoiding service, and ignores going after the 4 years of failure.

this election should be easy. Kerry is messing up almost as bad as Gore


Quite simply " You wish ".

It was the republicans and their lackys that dredged this stuff up in a attempt to distract from the real issues.

Bush is going down.


OUT THE DOOR IN 2004!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Quite simply " You wish ".

It was the republicans and their lackys that dredged this stuff up in a attempt to distract from the real issues.

Bush is going down.


OUT THE DOOR IN 2004!

Huh? It was the republicans that force kerry to bring up his millitary service over and over again? How did they manage that?
post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
How did they manage that?

By getting their minions (Swift Boat Vetrans) to lie about Kerry's record and divert the campaign away from Bush's failures.
post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by ROFF
By getting their minions (Swift Boat Vetrans) to lie about Kerry's record and divert the campaign away from Bush's failures.

But Kerry was going on and on about his military record long before these "Swifties" came out of the woodwork. Must be some kind of time machine?
post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Quite simply " You wish ".

It was the republicans and their lackys that dredged this stuff up in a attempt to distract from the real issues.

Bush is going down.


OUT THE DOOR IN 2004!

check your timeline sir.
post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
But Kerry was going on and on about his military record long before these "Swifties" came out of the woodwork. Must be some kind of time machine?

Kerry spoke to his record at the convention. Since then it's been about defending himself against lies.

What does "going on and on about" mean, anyway?

Never mind, I'm not interested in your thought process.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Kerry spoke to his record at the convention. Since then it's been about defending himself against lies.

What does "going on and on about" mean, anyway?

Never mind, I'm not interested in your thought process.

his record is what he tried to sell himself on. he's still doing it. it's been a poor strategy.

and none of your arguments are really proving that he isn't living 30 years in the past for this campaign.
post #40 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
his record is what he tried to sell himself on. he's still doing it. it's been a poor strategy.

and none of your arguments are really proving that he isn't living 30 years in the past for this campaign.

And his record is still worth us respecting him . . . the slander targetted his strength and threw lies and shit at it . . . some people are turned off because they don't have the time or energy to look through all of the evidence which shows that the SBVets are outright lyers . . . and so the poll-points are down . . . . but the truth is still that we should consider the difference of character implicit in past

but still, Kerry brought up his service because he served well, and his service shows character and leadership when the pinch is on . . . . . he didn't stop to stare vacantly for seven minutes -with a school marm prattling away- amidst a catastrophe and danger, he thought fast and acted and saved someone . . . he also was willing to take a real burden on himself rather than simply take a defferment . . . and then he risked all for stating what he felt was the Truth in a volatile era.

There is nothing wrong with Kerry bringing up his service . . . it isn't his fault that it makes NeoCons so enraged that they will dishonor themselves to smear him . . . partly out of fear that Bush's record will look like drug binging and cushioned spoon-feeding in comparison and partly because they think that the hippies lost Vietnam
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
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