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Russia losing the War on Terror

post #1 of 85
Thread Starter 
It's been a helluva week...
- First, last Tuesday, there was the near-simultaneous downing of two airliners, almost certainly by bombs, which killed 89.
- Yesterday, a suicide bomber killed nine and wounded dozens outside a Moscow subway station.
- And today, terrorists take over a school and hold 400 people hostage.

Man, those Russians must sure be grateful for the awesome job we're doing of winning the War on Terror. It's our pleasure, guys!

Eh, those Russians just need to stop coddling terrorists. Terminate them, like the Gubinator said tonight. Pansy, tree-hugging Russians. Of course, having an ocean between them and Chechnya might help, too.
post #2 of 85
It's unfortunate. This deaths will lead to anothers retaliations in Chechenia and more civilians will paid for this. Terrorism lead to nowhere except death.
post #3 of 85
All they need to do is found the Russian Republican Party. Why don't they do this?

Russians are used to chickenshit democracy, propaganda, abrogation of civil liberties for the Greater Good and rank hypocrisy and corruption in their government. All they need to do now is throw away their international reputation and they'll be winning their War on Turrrrism in a matter of days.

RUSSIA IS BACK! goes the headline.

And when they're really winning it, and Russia Is Safer Than It's Ever Been, they can institute a sort of Terrorist Threat warning system, maybe based on the colours of traffic lights, and perhaps get paranoid about Darkies, Sand Niggers, Bearded People generally (excluding Hassidim) and People From 'Foreign' Who Aren't American (Brazilians, for example.) People who might look a bit like me, for example. Or maybe you.

Why don't they do this? Why don't they become sell out sacks of shit to save what their nation stands for?

Why don't they do this?
post #4 of 85
^
Nicely said.

Re: Russia, they don't have a hope in hell of stopping this sort of thing until they grant Cheycheyna (sp?) full independence. The puppet government 'autonomy' they have now won't cut it.

The question is: when? Will the hawkish "OMG if we step down now da TerRa is teh WiNN!11!!!" attitude prevail or can they meet a middle ground before the terrorists/rebels can put the smack down on something substantial (e.g. nuclear power plant)?

In any event we could learn something from the abject failure of Russia's relentless military crackdowns in Chechiyana (sp again...) to curb terrorism.
post #5 of 85
First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller
post #6 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read.
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post #7 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Damn well said, Scott, damn well said. A deservedly famous quote and still pertinent today.

I have not, not for the frigging life of me, got the faintest idea why you've chosen to post it here, what you think you're replying to or what point you wish to make by it, but yes, I think we can all agree that it's important to speak out when someone elses liberties are curtailed by the actions of your government because eventually it will probably be you they come for.

I can also say now quite unequivocally that irony ain't a friend of yours.
post #8 of 85
Tisk tisk Hassan. You know "they" are the islamist.
post #9 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Tisk tisk Hassan. You know "they" are the islamist.

Maybe you need to be blind so that you can be truly ignorant of others.
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #10 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Then they came for me
and there was no one Left
to speak out for me.

I'm a bit stoned. And I've been reading PO.

Not sure it's a good mix.
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And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #11 of 85
sad news today.

I think that the Russians may be learning a lesson about the manner that they hae chosen to deal with Chechnya.

They never allowed a political solution and what happened is that the region became the Afghanistan/Mujahadeen of the 21st century . . .

the stance of force first created much more virulent opposition than diplomatic solutions would have . . . . sure there is the chance that any diplomacy would have gailed, but if you watched what was happening there, the Russians never tried to work anythng out . .. they went in with guns blazing.

There is a not too subrle lesson to be learned here:
1. These Muslim-Extremists are crazy mutha's and deserve to be wiped out
but
2. Attempting to directly confront this extremism through force first makes the idea a lightning rod for more extremists and they perpetuate the ideology easier

That leaves two options:
1. try to balance force with cultural change and . . . never using excessive force where changing the terrain might lead to the loss of impotence on the part of the opposition
or
2. Act as Subedai Khan acted and kill every Male member of the opposition and their families.

Clearly the second option is not effective or humane and would result in our becoming what we behold . . . however, the use of direct force before the exploration of othe means seems to lead towards that conclusion via a fast slippery slope.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #12 of 85
radical islam is no friend to the world.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #13 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
radical islam is no friend to the world.

Fellowship

Yes, obviously, and . . . . ?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #14 of 85
Once again I ask the leaders and members of Islam to speak out on this ? Where are they? It is this lack of responce from Islam in general that makes people think they all are like the terrorists. If someone acts wrongly in your name, you must wail to exaustion to distance yourself from those persons.

Moe
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #15 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Once again I ask the leaders and members of Islam to speak out on this ? Where are they? It is this lack of responce from Islam in general that makes people think they all are like the terrorists. If someone acts wrongly in your name, you must wail to exaustion to distance yourself from those persons.

Moe

They do, it's just not reported. When the French reporters were being threatened the French Muslim community was very outspoken against the threats. You wouldn't WANT to know that so you would never find information like that.

Go look it up.
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post #16 of 85
A beautiful circle of conservative ignorance.

"I see Arab terrorists on FoxNews, but they never show other Arabs apologizing. So Arabs must all like terrorism!"
proud resident of a failed state
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post #17 of 85
Um you do all realize the issue behind all this has more to do with Chechnya becoming an independent state than radical Islam don't you? Because much of the population is Muslim, they may have been radicalized thanks to Bush and his WOT but that is not the origin of the conflict. Although, to be fair, they've probably been more radicalized by the Russian response over the years.

Seems terrorist has become synonymous with radical Islam. I'm expecting people to start saying the IRA were radical Islamisits any day now.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
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post #18 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by crazychester
Um you do all realize the issue behind all this has more to do with Chechnya becoming an independent state than radical Islam don't you? Because much of the population is Muslim, they may have been radicalized thanks to Bush and his WOT but that is not the origin of the conflict. Although, to be fair, they've probably been more radicalized by the Russian response over the years.

That sounds suspiciously like a nuance.
post #19 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by Towel
That sounds suspiciously like a nuance.

Well it's not. It's a fact. This is primarily about independence. Indeed, if you look into the history of it, you'll find it's extremely hard to pick who are the good guys and who are the bad guys with this one.

If you think what the terrorists have just done is bad, go further back and check out what Russia did in Chechnya.
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post #20 of 85
Nice spin crazychester but those "rebels" in Chechnya were that way long before 9-11. You're anti-American spin fell short on that one.
post #21 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
A beautiful circle of conservative ignorance.

"I see Arab terrorists on FoxNews, but they never show other Arabs apologizing. So Arabs must all like terrorism!"

If a Christian or a Jew or Hindu or a Buddhist ever committing the crimes that Islamic terrorists are committing weekly, you would be hearing it condemned so loudly and repeatedly you would not be able to avoid it.

The silence of Arab and Muslim leaders on terrorists is deafening. Possibly because they have a hand in funding them?
post #22 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666


The silence of Arab and Muslim leaders on terrorists is deafening. Possibly because they have a hand in funding them?

Whats with the possibly?
post #23 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
If a Christian or a Jew or Hindu or a Buddhist ever committing the crimes that Islamic terrorists are committing weekly, you would be hearing it condemned so loudly and repeatedly you would not be able to avoid it.

Just like how the Vatican has condemned the child raping priests over the years?

"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #24 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Nice spin crazychester but those "rebels" in Chechnya were that way long before 9-11. You're anti-American spin fell short on that one.

Did you even read her post? Do you ever contribute anything worthwhile to a thread?
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post #25 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Did you even read her post?

Obviously not otherwise he wouldn't have so clumsily given support to my point that this is not at heart a religious war.

Because indeed Scott, the conflict with Chechnya was well under way before 911. That's because it has far less to do with Islam vs The Russian Orthodox Church than it does with the collapse and subsequent break up of the Soviet Union.

What's more, you'll also find conflict between the centralised power in Moscow and the outer provinces/states (especially where they identify as different ethnic groups), pre-dates even the October Revolution.

But it's OK, I realize how easily distracted you are when you see the word "Bush" and the acronym "WOT" in close proximity to each other.

Getting back to the good old IRA, those old enough might remember that they used to blow things up and shoot people on a regular basis and while they were condemned for it, nobody was shitting themselves like they are now. That's maybe partly because a lot of people realized that despite the violence, they kind of had a point. Just like some people today realize the Palestinians kind of have a point. Or the way some people understand why the Iraqis haven't dropped to their knees to give thanks to the great white saviours they never asked to save them.

This evil Muslim shit really creeps me out. There are too many parallels with the less than chummy relationship between the Third Reich and the Jews for it to be a good thing. But then it WAS Hitler who said,

"The mass of people will more easily fall victim to a great lie than a small one."

Special bonus distraction for Scott: Whoever lent George their copy of Mein Kampf, please get it back off him now.
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And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #26 of 85
It is about religion. They want an independent Muslim nation,
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #27 of 85
Get yer burkas ready.
post #28 of 85
Don't feed the troll boys and girls.

Edit: IBL
meh
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post #29 of 85
> Getting back to the good old IRA, those old enough might remember that they used to blow things up and shoot people on a regular basis and while they were condemned for it, nobody was shitting themselves like they are now. That's maybe partly because a lot of people realized that despite the violence, they kind of had a point. Just like some people today realize the Palestinians kind of have a point. Or the way some people understand why the Iraqis haven't dropped to their knees to give thanks to the great white saviours they never asked to save them.<

Actually, they dont have a point. That sounds like good ole European appeasement.
When terrorists committ atrocities to get us to understand their 'point', they should be basically throwing their side of the story out the window. The only way to deal with them is to kill them, preferrably before they reach their target, and then make sure that whatever side they are on never gets their way. The key is to kill them first.
It doesnt matter if Russia was right or wrong on the issue, they are now automatically correct. Terrorism cant be allowed to succeed, therefore their goals cant be allowed to be met. All that is doing is legitamizing terrorism as a means to an end. Europe did that with the Palestinians and see the result.
post #30 of 85
Quote:
Actually, they dont have a point. That sounds like good ole European appeasement.
When terrorists committ atrocities to get us to understand their 'point', they should be basically throwing their side of the story out the window. The only way to deal with them is to kill them, preferrably before they reach their target, and then make sure that whatever side they are on never gets their way. The key is to kill them first.

This isn't trolling, so I'll point out it's just fucking bullshit.

1) Name a terrorist movement that has been ended by violence. (Clue: you won't be able to. How's it working out in Palestine?)

2) Appeasement is something the US excels in, so save that tired Euro-bullshit, there's a fellow. The US 'appeased' Saddam Hussein, Pinochet and the Shah of Iran as well as a bunch of others. Put the Koolaid down s'il vouz plait.

3) The US appeases Israel. If I may add that.

4) Name a terrorist movement that was ended by dialogue and addressing root causes. (Clue: Northern Ireland).

It may be very inconvenient for you, but dialogue and addressing root causes can end terrorism, but violence alone will only breed more violence. But if you base your policies on faith, that is entirely irrelevant.
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post #31 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
[B]

This isn't trolling, so I'll point out it's just fucking bullshit.

1) Name a terrorist movement that has been ended by violence. (Clue: you won't be able to. How's it working out in Palestine?)

2) Appeasement is something the US excels in, so save that tired Euro-bullshit, there's a fellow. The US 'appeased' Saddam Hussein, Pinochet and the Shah of Iran as well as a bunch of others. Put the Koolaid down s'il vouz plait.

3) The US appeases Israel. If I may add that.

4) Name a terrorist movement that was ended by dialogue and addressing root causes. (Clue: Northern Ireland).

It may be very inconvenient for you, but dialogue and addressing root causes can end terrorism, but violence alone will only breed more violence. But if you base your policies on faith, that is entirely irrelevant.


1. The Palestinians may not be getting entirely what they want out of terrorism, but they still have Europe on their side no matter what atrocities they committ, even when its right in the middle of a peace process.
2. France, Italy, Germany among others practically begged the Arabs not to hurt them and allowed them free passage as long as they didnt attack their own country. That, sir, is appeasement in the worst way.
The US has made many foreign policy gaffes and I wont excuse them, but thats not appeasement, it was stupidity.
3. You cant appease a Democratic Govmnt. Thats foreign policy. You may not like it, but thats a seperate issue. And I would much rather be on Israel's side than on a bunch of Arab Dictatorships that kill more Arabs than Israel has in over 40 years. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
4. Northern Ireland still hasnt been solved. The IRA should have been exterminated.

Dialogue doesnt work when the subhumans you are talking to value life so little that they will send their own children to kill themselves and as many innocent civilians along with them at the same time. When the terrorist tell you their aim is to kill you, you kill them first.
post #32 of 85
What Harald said.
post #33 of 85
Taken from another message board. I agree 100% with this assessment.



< My friends in Delta (U.S. Anti-Terrorist Operators) who cross train with Russian (Alpha Operators )and many other Countries to include (British SAS)indicate to like minds of a much higher body count. It may not be made public but 500 dead is the number I hear.......stand by.
In future, look for combined Teams of U.S. and other Countries Counter Terror Operators to go after Terrorists with.... NO RULES OF ANY KIND SLOWING THEM DOWN AND KILL THEM.... being observed.
This event will be the glue which combines "FORCES" to tear out the guts of terrorists groups WORLDWIDE<
post #34 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
4. Northern Ireland still hasnt been solved. The IRA should have been exterminated.

Answer me these questions bucko:

Who were the IRA and on whose behalf were they fighting?

Were there any other groups using terror tactics in Northern Ireland? If so, who did they represent?

Assuming all terrorists must be killed, how many people would this have left alive in Northern Ireland?
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post #35 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by crazychester
Answer me these questions bucko:

Who were the IRA and on whose behalf were they fighting?

Were there any other groups using terror tactics in Northern Ireland? If so, who did they represent?

Assuming all terrorists must be killed, how many people would this have left alive in Northern Ireland?

The actual number of terrorists, those willing to kill innocent civilians probably wasnt very high. All groups using terror as a tactic should have been wiped out, bucko.
post #36 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
The actual number of terrorists, those willing to kill innocent civilians probably wasnt very high. All groups using terror as a tactic should have been wiped out, bucko.

Thanks. You didn't answer the questions I posted. But you did answer the question I was actually asking, namely:

Q.What do you know about the history of the conflict in Northern Ireland?
A.Very, very little.

Sorry. I really don't enjoy putting people down like that but if you insist on showing how dangerous a little bit of knowledge can be, I feel it's warranted.
Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
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post #37 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by crazychester
Thanks. You didn't answer the questions I posted. But you did answer the question I was actually asking, namely:

Q.What do you know about the history of the conflict in Northern Ireland?
A.Very, very little.

Sorry. I really don't enjoy putting people down like that but if you insist on showing how dangerous a little bit of knowledge can be, I feel it's warranted.

Yes, and you so conveniently decide that you're the expert. Gee, i guess the rest of us should stop posting because crazychester is the only one who knows anything. Oh wait, no, if you happen to agree with crazychester, than you can continue.
post #38 of 85
So Steve,

When the US tolerates Pinochet's mass murder, and actively backs up the Shah's violent dictatorship, that's not 'appeasment' but a foreign policy mistake. When the EU invests in Palestinian infrastructure that's appeasment.

By the way, the first of those two resulted in hundreds of thousands of atrocities and two overthrown democratic governments.

Policies based on faith not fact are doomed.

You cannot eradicate violence with violence. Please, tell me ONE THING. Given that it has NEVER WORKED EVER, but violence in Northern Ireland is largely a thing of the past, why do you think that violence not addressing root causes is the way to go?
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post #39 of 85
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Taken from another message board. I agree 100% with this assessment.



< My friends in Delta (U.S. Anti-Terrorist Operators) who cross train with Russian (Alpha Operators )and many other Countries to include (British SAS)indicate to like minds of a much higher body count. It may not be made public but 500 dead is the number I hear.......stand by.
In future, look for combined Teams of U.S. and other Countries Counter Terror Operators to go after Terrorists with.... NO RULES OF ANY KIND SLOWING THEM DOWN AND KILL THEM.... being observed.
This event will be the glue which combines "FORCES" to tear out the guts of terrorists groups WORLDWIDE<

What fun.

But tell me, is the expectation that "the terrorists" will all be wearing shirts with big red "T"s on them so they will be easy distinguish from the local population when it comes time to "kill them all"?

Or does "NO RULES OF ANY KIND" mean you get to kill everything in sight, just to make sure you get all the "terrorists".

For the Russians, this would seem to mean simply killing everybody in Chechnya, which I suppose is one way to do it. Of course, such an atrocity would probably lead to other groups beginning to attack Russia, but after, say, 4-5 million dead maybe everybody would get the idea and leave Russia the fuck alone. Or not.

War on terrorism "won", World War III just getting going.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #40 of 85
Actually it's WWIV
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