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Another leftist attack bites the dust?

post #1 of 278
9/9/04 at 3:16pm
Thread Starter 
It looks like the latest attempt by CBS and 60 Minutes to attack our President may be based on bad information. Ah the desparate left! When will they learn?!

http://www.chronicallybiased.com/ind...emid=1486#more
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #2 of 278
9/9/04 at 3:27pm
Typewriter History:

The IBM Electric typewriters were a series of electric typewriters that IBM manufactured, starting in the late 1940s. They used the conventional moving carriage and hammer mechanism. Each model came in both Standard and Executive versions; the Executive differed in having a multiple escapement mechanism and four widths for letters, producing a near typeset quality result.

One model of the series was introduced in the late 1940s:
IBM Model A Two models of the series were introduced in the 1950s:
IBM Model B
IBM Model C One model of the series was introduced in the early 1970s:
IBM Model D Modified Standard versions of the A, B, and C models were commonly used as "console typewriters" or terminals on many early computers (e.g., JOHNNIAC, IBM 1620, PDP-1). Following the introduction of the IBM Selectric typewriter in 1961, which was much easier to interface to a computer, these typewriters were rarely used anymore as "console typewriters" or terminals.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #3 of 278
9/9/04 at 3:31pm
ARE THE KILLIAN MEMOS REAL?....The big question swirling around the blogosphere at the moment is whether the "Killian memos" that CBS aired last night on 60 Minutes are real or not. Powerline appears to be the central clearinghouse for amateur discussion of typefaces, terminology, signatures, etc.

For what it's worth, I spoke to someone a few minutes ago who's familiar with how the documents were vetted, and the bottom line is that CBS is very, very confident that the memos are genuine. They believe that (a) their sources are rock solid, (b) the provenance of the documents is well established, and (c) the appearance of the documents matches the appearance of other documents created at the same place and time. In addition, people who knew Killian well have confirmed that the memos are genuine.

This won't stop the arguments, of course, since CBS's sources are anonymous and are apparently going to stay that way. But while caveat emptor is always good advice, I thought it was worth passing on the fact that CBS is pretty sure of itself on this.

Washington Monthly
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #4 of 278
9/9/04 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Typewriter History:

The IBM Electric typewriters were a series of electric typewriters that IBM manufactured, starting in the late 1940s. They used the conventional moving carriage and hammer mechanism. Each model came in both Standard and Executive versions; the Executive differed in having a multiple escapement mechanism and four widths for letters, producing a near typeset quality result.

One model of the series was introduced in the late 1940s:
IBM Model A Two models of the series were introduced in the 1950s:
IBM Model B
IBM Model C One model of the series was introduced in the early 1970s:
IBM Model D Modified Standard versions of the A, B, and C models were commonly used as "console typewriters" or terminals on many early computers (e.g., JOHNNIAC, IBM 1620, PDP-1). Following the introduction of the IBM Selectric typewriter in 1961, which was much easier to interface to a computer, these typewriters were rarely used anymore as "console typewriters" or terminals.

"Common Man" is too young to have ever seen the dark gray IBM typewriters with the spherical hammer.


Note the 'T' on the right side second row from the top. It has serif's on it...



http://www.nmsi.ac.uk/piclib/imagere...sp?id=10236912

Enjoy not so "common man".
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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post #5 of 278
9/9/04 at 3:35pm
Here's some more on the subject......


http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #6 of 278
9/9/04 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
"Common Man" is too young to have ever seen the dark gray IBM typewriters with the spherical hammer.


Note the 'T' on the right side second row from the top. It has serif's on it...



http://www.nmsi.ac.uk/piclib/imagere...sp?id=10236912

Enjoy not so "common man".

I used those old IBM typewriters in typing class in junior high. These were OLD machines when I was learning to type on them in 1983 (wow am I getting old). They were at least ten to twelve years old THEN.

But, I was always amazed at how good my documents turned out. It was the first time I realized there was such a thing as simulated typesetting. Also, you could change that little ball and have a different font with different symbols. One ball would give the fixed width font and the other would give you a typeset font. It was kinda cool then.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #7 of 278
9/9/04 at 3:47pm
Let us not forget the classic ASR 33 Teletype...



...with it's cylindrical, uppercase-only print head.

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Peter came out and gave us medals
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #8 of 278
9/9/04 at 3:50pm
Hay "not so" Common Man: you should refer your favorite spin-publisher to this thread so they can correct their story.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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post #9 of 278
9/9/04 at 4:00pm
most importantly.....from this story.

Quote:
Yet, it was the White House not Kerry's campaign that distributed four memos from 1972 and 1973 from Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, now deceased, who was the commander of the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron in Houston where Bush served. The White House obtained the memos from CBS News, which said it was convinced of their authenticity, and the White House did not question their accuracy. There was no explanation why the Pentagon was unable to find the documents on its own.

this is just starting sports fans, it's going to be a bumpy 2 months.
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post #10 of 278
9/9/04 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
most importantly.....from this story.



this is just starting sports fans, it's going to be a bumpy 2 months.

Well, I submited a response to the mans site. I used the above info--Thanks SKMDC. I guess we'll see if they allow my response to go public (they moderate posts).
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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post #11 of 278
9/9/04 at 5:37pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
I used those old IBM typewriters in typing class in junior high. These were OLD machines when I was learning to type on them in 1983 (wow am I getting old). They were at least ten to twelve years old THEN.

I remember when those typewriters first became available. Very clearly unfortunately. How we marvelled.

Oh yeah. Boingy Boingy Get you're own PDF copies! The Fark threads.

Go the blogosphere. Internet phenomena are a hoot. This one's a doozy. (sp?)
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And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #12 of 278
9/9/04 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
It looks like the latest attempt by CBS and 60 Minutes to attack our President may be based on bad information. Ah the desparate left! When will they learn?!

http://www.chronicallybiased.com/ind...emid=1486#more

Who wants to bet that this was made on a bootleg copy of office running on a bootleg copy of windows...
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #13 of 278
9/9/04 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by a_greer
Who wants to bet that this was made on a bootleg copy of office running on a bootleg copy of windows...

Amen to that, I don't think it was impossible for the "proportionally spaced type"



But in all seriousness, I'm not sure that the military had the budget to use the models that Northgate quoted. Beyond that, the "th" ligature/use seems to be the rub.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #14 of 278
9/9/04 at 6:53pm
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Amen to that, I don't think it was impossible for the "proportionally spaced type"


But in all seriousness, I'm not sure that the military had the budget to use the models that Northgate quoted. Beyond that, the "th" ligature/use seems to be the rub.

OT: I just noticed that you have quotes from Wilde and Eliot in your sig. That's pretty funny.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #15 of 278
9/9/04 at 7:15pm
Quote:
This person is on your Ignore List. This post may contain valuable information pertaining to this thread.

To view this post, please click [here]

Sorry I didn't catch that Common Man, what?
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #16 of 278
9/9/04 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Sorry I didn't catch that Common Man, what?

He was trying to warn you that the Republicans are exposing your info to anyone that wants it.
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post #17 of 278
9/9/04 at 8:26pm
Latest from Drudge.. the fit may be getting ready to hit the shan as they say.

Quote:
CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.

The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being "shell-shocked" by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent.

Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.

Couple this with the fake drug allegation and you have all the makings of a desperate campaign by Kerry operatives to smear Bush as he pulls away in the polls.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #18 of 278
9/9/04 at 8:30pm
A bit more for all our typewriter experts here.

Quote:
Among the points Flynn and other experts noted:

The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.

The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.

The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.

The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas the bible of fonts does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.

The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #19 of 278
9/9/04 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Couple this with the fake drug allegation and you have all the makings of a desperate campaign by Kerry operatives to smear Bush as he pulls away in the polls.

Or maybe not. What fake drug allegation? Do you have proof or even evidence that it might be fake? What pulling away in the polls?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #20 of 278
9/9/04 at 9:18pm
It sure is interesting that the people who stuck their heads in the sand back in 02, when it became clear through mountains of documentation and facts that Bush was lying to push us into war, all of a sudden have done a 180 when it's in their political interests.

It's particularly interesting to see what parts of each subject they trim off to create their little bonsai arguments.
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post #21 of 278
9/9/04 at 9:25pm
Not to mention that some individuals (here and elsewhere) scouring the web for scraps of info to prove forgery are the same folks who ferociously defended the swifties. The hypocrisy is unfuckingbelievable. Or maybe unfuckingreal. I can't decide.
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post #22 of 278
9/9/04 at 9:32pm
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Or maybe not. What fake drug allegation? Do you have proof or even evidence that it might be fake? What pulling away in the polls?

Sure I have this little thing I like to call... the primary source.

Sharon Bush denies

Quote:
But Sharon Bush, who is divorced from the president's brother Neil, said in a statement: "I categorically deny that I ever told Kitty Kelley that George W. Bush used cocaine at Camp David or that I ever saw him use cocaine at Camp David. When Kitty Kelley raised drug use at Camp David, I responded by saying something along the lines of, 'Who would say such a thing?'

"Although there have been tensions between me and various members of the Bush family, I cannot allow this falsehood to go unchallenged."

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #23 of 278
9/9/04 at 9:33pm
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Sure I have this little thing I like to call... the primary source.

Sharon Bush denies



Nick

What the hell does that have to do with the polls?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #24 of 278
9/9/04 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
What the hell does that have to do with the polls?

I thought you were asking about the drug thing.

polls

And next time you take that tone, put on the leather hood and grab the paddle.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #25 of 278
9/9/04 at 9:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's particularly interesting to see what parts of each subject they trim off to create their little bonsai arguments.

Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
...fake drug allegation...

Sure I have this little thing I like to call... the primary source.

Sharon Bush denies

Nick

Ah, yes. Yet another example. Here we have a (s)he said/she said article and trumpt trims everything down, omitting various individuals disputing Sharon Bush's version, in order to support his predetermined belief that it's a "fake drug allegation."

It's just a bonsai (or penzai, if you prefer) argument. Problem is, it's far from elegant.

In addition, by using that as his source he proved that he doesn't have anything remotely resembling conclusive information, so the stance he's taken is based on nothing remotely resembling critical thought. It's just simply to argue.
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post #26 of 278
9/9/04 at 10:06pm
If the memos are faked its screwed up.

at least I'll admit the possibility . . . (ever here that from the right?)

I somehow doubt they are fake and until it is proven conclusively I will assume they are not.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #27 of 278
9/9/04 at 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Ah, yes. Yet another example. Here we have a (s)he said/she said article and trumpt trims everything down, omitting various individuals disputing Sharon Bush's version, in order to support his predetermined belief that it's a "fake drug allegation."

It's just a bonsai (or penzai, if you prefer) argument. Problem is, it's far from elegant.

In addition, by using that as his source he proved that he doesn't have anything remotely resembling conclusive information, so the stance he's taken is based on nothing remotely resembling critical thought. It's just simply to argue.

Yep, the he said, she said... of course without the he...

and what she said happens to support he...

But keep trying...

But thanks for condemning me for using the Washington Post.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #28 of 278
9/9/04 at 10:25pm
Apparently CBS is very sure of themselves, and feel that the vetting they did before running this story is pretty much iron-clad.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #29 of 278
9/9/04 at 10:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Apparently CBS is very sure of themselves, and feel that the vetting they did before running this story is pretty much iron-clad.

Yup.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #30 of 278
9/9/04 at 11:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Yep, the he said, she said... of course without the he...

No, there's a he. Apparently Susan Bush's own PR person, who contradicts her statement. Among other people's comments that you left out when cherry-picking information in that article to pad your fantasy.

Keep on trimming. Everyone else here just sits back and watches you play jester.
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post #31 of 278
9/9/04 at 11:34pm
I've also read that while all the chatter is coming from people looking at PDFs, PDFs can't tell you if there are impact impressions on the paper.

I think it's pretty obvious that CBS would be aware that an immediate tip off to a computer generated forgery is the flatness of the ink or laser jetted letters, compared to the indentations that a typewriter makes.

Assuming the originals have such indentations, does that put an end to the speculation?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #32 of 278
9/9/04 at 11:37pm
I've studied some of the claims made by the forgery crew, and I'm starting to think that the documents are probably fake. This is a bad reflection on a few Kerry supporters.

But now let's look at the issues, please.

Bush's policies as a president have been failures.

Saddam was not a threat.

Bin Laden is probably dead, but Al Qaeda are still going strong.

90% of the world now hates the USA, where before the war, it was probably only 40%.

Let's get this country back on track.

Regime change where it counts.
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post #33 of 278
9/10/04 at 4:54am
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
I've studied some of the claims made by the forgery crew, and I'm starting to think that the documents are probably fake. This is a bad reflection on a few Kerry supporters.

From the link I provided earlier:

Quote:
Someone posted the two images (White House released and Word generated), so I fired up an image editor and had a look. While the font character spacing are very similar, most typography experts in the threads agreed that the original had type-write like characteristics (number 8 slightly high on the line, etc.) that would be hard to reproduce in Word. More importantly, the superscript "th" which caused most of the interest is not in the same position in the two images (see attached superimposed comparison).

It's possible that the original was generated on a typewriter with a proportional width Times New Roman font wheel or ball (available at the time), with the same common margin settings as Word uses by default. The superscript used in Word is artificially generated (smaller font size, elevated baseline), whereas the typewritter superscript "th" would need to be carved in the same space as other characters, which is why it appears lower.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #34 of 278
9/10/04 at 5:31am
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
No, there's a he. Apparently Susan Bush's own PR person, who contradicts her statement. Among other people's comments that you left out when cherry-picking information in that article to pad your fantasy.

Keep on trimming. Everyone else here just sits back and watches you play jester.

Perhaps you are engaging in a bit of drug use yourself.

I provide links, and quotes. You provide Kitty Kelly, an assertion with no backing, and of course an insult or two just to keep your posting style consistant.

What will you do next, tell us you heard Bush used cocain on Coast to Coast?


Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #35 of 278
9/10/04 at 5:45am
Speaking as a journalism major with a metric assload of course hours in print... there is no way to say these are forgeries from where we sit and there is no way these were made in Word.

To mess with the kerning and tracking enough in Word to make that document look the way it does (just look at the "18", that tells you immediately this was not likely produced by a word processor) would point to some big freaking idiots doing it. If you are going to do that, use better software, play on the safe side, use no superscript.

If the document was created in Word it should be easy to create an exact copy, not just a similar one. There should be no inconsistency at all. None. If you type the same document 5 billion times in Word the same way it will look the same every time. And someone trying to make them look the same will easily be able to do so. Easily.

And then I just have to ask, what kind of printer did they use to get the text to look like a typewriter-produced document?

This could be a fake, but when I first saw it I didn't think that at all. I am no expert but I saw the superscript sitting low and the "1" and "8" on different levels and the last thing that entered my mind was "word processor".

From the BoingBoing article:
Quote:
The superscript used in Word is artificially generated (smaller font size, elevated baseline), whereas the typewritter superscript "th" would need to be carved in the same space as other characters, which is why it appears lower.

There is really no way at all to tell whether or not any document is forged without both (1) access to the originals and (2) a clear knowledge of the circumstances.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #36 of 278
9/10/04 at 6:37am
Someone had a hissy fit about my little gif above. I formally 'report' myself to the mods! Here is the source of this evil plot from the government to find out secret info from you: http://www.danasoft.com/
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post #37 of 278
9/10/04 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Speaking as a journalism major with a metric assload of course hours in print... there is no way to say these are forgeries from where we sit and there is no way these were made in Word.

To mess with the kerning and tracking enough in Word to make that document look the way it does (just look at the "18", that tells you immediately this was not likely produced by a word processor) would point to some big freaking idiots doing it. If you are going to do that, use better software, play on the safe side, use no superscript.

If the document was created in Word it should be easy to create an exact copy, not just a similar one. There should be no inconsistency at all. None. If you type the same document 5 billion times in Word the same way it will look the same every time. And someone trying to make them look the same will easily be able to do so. Easily.

And then I just have to ask, what kind of printer did they use to get the text to look like a typewriter-produced document?

This could be a fake, but when I first saw it I didn't think that at all. I am no expert but I saw the superscript sitting low and the "1" and "8" on different levels and the last thing that entered my mind was "word processor".

From the BoingBoing article:


There is really no way at all to tell whether or not any document is forged without both (1) access to the originals and (2) a clear knowledge of the circumstances.

Speaking as someone who has is getting too old and has used computers for far to long, I can also tell you that there are indeed fonts that are created in order to replicate the look of typewriters. I don't just mean that they are courier font, I mean they also have certain letters set up to look uneven, some that appear to have only been partial hits, uneven hits, or that the ribbon is getting old and in need or replacing.

This site right here offers just a few examples.

Typewriter fonts

That is why I also mentioned these points in a prior post.

Quote:
Among the points Flynn and other experts noted:

The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.

The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.

The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.

The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas the bible of fonts does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.

The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #38 of 278
9/10/04 at 7:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Speaking as someone who has is getting too old and has used computers for far to long, I can also tell you that there are indeed fonts that are created in order to replicate the look of typewriters. I don't just mean that they are courier font, I mean they also have certain letters set up to look uneven, some that appear to have only been partial hits, uneven hits, or that the ribbon is getting old and in need or replacing.

What Nick should have also said:

"However, these computer generated fonts are uniformly imperfect meaning if the letter 'T' is produced with a missing spot then all 'T's will be reproduced with the same missing spot. Random selection of different versions of 'T' from within a font tree is impossible using word though a particular font tree may include different versions of a given letter."

Now, if I where going to forge a document, I'd use an old piece of equipment to do it. Finding an old typewriter is not that hard. I wouldn't use word, nor do I think a credible forger would either. I bet dollars-to-doughnuts that the memo was inspected by CBS prior to presenting it because of how controversial it is. Just a hunch...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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post #39 of 278
9/10/04 at 7:32am
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Speaking as someone who has is getting too old and has used computers for far to long, I can also tell you that there are indeed fonts that are created in order to replicate the look of typewriters. I don't just mean that they are courier font, I mean they also have certain letters set up to look uneven, some that appear to have only been partial hits, uneven hits, or that the ribbon is getting old and in need or replacing.

Really?!?! Next thing we know someone who has "used computers for far too long" will tell us there's even a font that looks like little greek letters.

Of course, ignoring that for a moment, the discussion breaks down once you move beyond obvious flaws. If it was discovered that it actually was typed on a typewriter, it still could have been forged, and we all know that partisans would still be claiming just that.
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post #40 of 278
9/10/04 at 7:37am
Quote:
Speaking as someone who has is getting too old and has used computers for far to long, I can also tell you that there are indeed fonts that are created in order to replicate the look of typewriters. I don't just mean that they are courier font, I mean they also have certain letters set up to look uneven, some that appear to have only been partial hits, uneven hits, or that the ribbon is getting old and in need or replacing.

I know this, but even these fonts are not inconsistent, they will consistently produce the errors they are meant to. Typewriters, especially those not regularly serviced, can fall victim to the smallest of physical defects or obstructions. The letter "i" in one part of a typewritten document can look different than the letter "i" in another part of a typewritten document, the same is not so for typewriter-emulating fonts in word processors.

At least I don't know of any fonts that dynamically intelligent.

As far as proportional fonts and super/subscripts, those existed on typewriters. I don't know what the National Guard used and I sincerely doubt those technologies were prohibitively expensive.

These could be fakes, they are likely real.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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