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Another leftist attack bites the dust? - Page 6

post #201 of 278
Um, and you see no real difference between those and the others?

It is pretty hard to get past the centering issue.

all of these machine might have offered proportional spacing, but not the kind of kerning that is evident in the "new"memos. It was still fixed for any particular letter. the space for a "w" is much more than an "i" (as seen here" except that it is always the same despite usage. Same with the "space". New versions of word automatically double space between sentences. That may also be an indicator.
post #202 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Um, and you see no real difference between those and the others?

It is pretty hard to get past the centering issue.

all of these machine might have offered proportional spacing, but not the kind of kerning that is evident in the "new"memos. It was still fixed for any particular letter. the space for a "w" is much more than an "i" (as seen here" except that it is always the same despite usage. Same with the "space". New versions of word automatically double space between sentences. That may also be an indicator.

You must've missed this the first time I posted it

Quote:
Philip Bouffard, a forensic document examiner in Ohio who has analyzed typewritten samples for 30 years, had expressed suspicions about the documents in an interview with the New York Times, one in a wave of similar media reports. But Bouffard told the Globe Friday that after further study, he now believed the documents could have been prepared on an IBM Selectric Composer typewriter available at the time.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #203 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Took a PDF of Kerry's Bronze start citation off his website.

Typed up a copy in Word (courier medium).

Exactly the same. Same line breaks, letters line up the same, everything.

So either Kerry's naval record has also been forged, or retyping a document in the same font makes it come out the same.

You guys are such tools.

Now, now Adda, be nice. You don't want to hurt Grove and giant's assertion that MS Word could NEVER be used to emulate a typewriter.

But of course you neglect to mention the other details about Kerry's naval records that we have to deal with here. Things like they often come on official forms, or letterhead, or come from the Naval archives.

That is very different than coming from the private files of a man who has been dead for almost a couple decades with no letterhead, no signatures on about half the pages, and no willingness to cite your experts, your sources, and have all the people you used for confirmation be misled and recant.

Then you have to use those documents to help substanciate the new claims of a man who previously made the opposite claim, raised and gave well over a quarter million dollars to the candidate helped by the change in claim, and lastly is refuted by his own family member.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #204 of 278
Final nail... meet coffin.

CBS docs are forgeries

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #205 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Final nail... meet coffin.

CBS docs are forgeries

Nick



where's that dead-horse smily?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #206 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Final nail... meet coffin.

Really, that page was embarassing.

So, if the documents are real and Bush was gone for 5 months, doesn't everyone agree that he would have to be considered AWOL? I believe someone could be missing for up to 3 months without being considered AWOL.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #207 of 278
Bush quote:

Quote:
I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I had a choice, I'd rather go to war.

Would John Kerry be allowed to get away with this?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #208 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Bush quote:



Would John Kerry be allowed to get away with this?


When the hell did Bush personally go to war?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #209 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
When the hell did Bush personally go to war?

I think that it is supposed to be a joke: he raised twins and therefor went to 'war'

Or was that more than obvious?
To much coffee, not enough sleep

I guess the outrage comes in at belittling war: but Bush seem to get away with that all the time . . . ."where are those confounded WMD, are they under here?" . . . anybody remember that?
Or,
"bring it on" . . . yeah, thanks alot big guy.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #210 of 278
Hey look, nothing left to say after that, so let's attack Bushie....

He's a big poopie head.
post #211 of 278
Seriously. If John Kerry had not fought in a war and had made the allegation that he had, would the GOP and the media have jumped on it? Because it appears that any statement, no matter how benign or how old, is "fair game" according to the GOP playbook.

So would the media, at the prodding of Ed Gillespie, have jumped all over Kerry's allegations that he fought in a war?

it's a fair question.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #212 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Seriously. If John Kerry had not fought in a war and had made the allegation that he had, would the GOP and the media have jumped on it? Because it appears that any statement, no matter how benign or how old, is "fair game" according to the GOP playbook.

So would the media, at the prodding of Ed Gillespie, have jumped all over Kerry's allegations that he fought in a war?

it's a fair question.

You're joking, right?

It has already been asked who gave their mother more trouble...

Oh yeah, an it was actually investigated by reporters.
post #213 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
I have 5 dollars that says trumpt will start arguing that the memos are real if I say they are forged.

I bet that Giant is right.
post #214 of 278
I bet Bush's lead in the polls widens when this thing shakes out.
post #215 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Final nail... meet coffin.

CBS docs are forgeries

Nick

You must've missed this the first two times I posted it

Quote:
Philip Bouffard, a forensic document examiner in Ohio who has analyzed typewritten samples for 30 years, had expressed suspicions about the documents in an interview with the New York Times, one in a wave of similar media reports. But Bouffard told the Globe Friday that after further study, he now believed the documents could have been prepared on an IBM Selectric Composer typewriter available at the time.

Thirt years forensic experience V an internet hack you be the judge.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #216 of 278
I wouldn't be so quick to jump on Bouffard as your source...

http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000859.php

Apparantly he saw the GLobe article, and got a hold of the INDC blog to clarify his position, and that the Globe MISQUOTED him.

Whoops, 30 years of experience isn't willing to stay on this sinking ship. Next please...
post #217 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by gekkobear
I wouldn't be so quick to jump on Bouffard as your source...

http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000859.php

Apparantly he saw the GLobe article, and got a hold of the INDC blog to clarify his position, and that the Globe MISQUOTED him.

Whoops, 30 years of experience isn't willing to stay on this sinking ship. Next please...

Great catch and first post gekkobear! Welcome.

Although I fear that you will be torn apart by the usual operators here. So be prepared for the personal attacks.

Anyway, welcome.
post #218 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by gekkobear
I wouldn't be so quick to jump on Bouffard as your source...

http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000859.php

Apparantly he saw the GLobe article, and got a hold of the INDC blog to clarify his position, and that the Globe MISQUOTED him.

Whoops, 30 years of experience isn't willing to stay on this sinking ship. Next please...

Oh, nice. The gentleman offers this up to a right wing blog after receiving hate-mail and harassing phone calls.

And what he offers is the kind of detailed character by character caveats that mean nothing working off a copy of a copy.

If any of this is even true....
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #219 of 278
Sure, its not like he'd contact them with a correction, I mean its not like they were the ones who initialliy interviewed him on this story.

http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000838.php

Nope, he's not trying to clear the record or to protect his good name. He's obviously been pressured into this and the Boston Globe are the only ones who got his "true feelings" on the matter.

Or maybe he figured since Bill at INDC Journal had an interest in the story and had already reported once; fully crediting him and clarifying his points and his concerns, such as he didn't have an original and so he couldn't be 100% sure, just 90% or so. Even going so far as to post a correction when a point was clarified later...

Hmm, maybe you would go back to a source like that to clarify when you've been misquoted by another media source. Especially when the media source does such a bad job...

And no, he isn't 100% sure its a forgery, but he certainly isn't putting his 30 years of forensic experience on the line stating he believes its probable these are valid.

Um, you lost the one expert you claimed supported the memo's typography being valid. And it seems the handwriting expert has just backed out as well...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Sep13.html

But since the great and powerful Dan Rather says its true, we don't need to look behind the curtain. Dan Rather, all the news that sounds too good to verify.
post #220 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9

blah blah blah

Forgot to take your amphetamines today, faust9? You missed your usual 10 new threads/ day quota.
post #221 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
Forgot to take your amphetamines today, faust9? You missed your usual 10 new threads/ day quota.

Moderators.

This member has been banned.
post #222 of 278
post #223 of 278
post #224 of 278
Two things I don't understand.

1: Where are the originals? Surely this could be settled now if the original documents were produced? The longer there's no definite proof, the more suspicious it looks.

2: Why hasn't the White House made an official denial? All Bush has to do is go on TV and say 'These documents are fake; I did not ignore a direct order', explicitly. The longer he doesn't, the more suspicious it looks.
post #225 of 278


Allow me to refresh your memory Hassan:

Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
I'm pretty well convinced that CBS and Co. were not the victim of a hoax, but Rather (LOL) the perpetrators of that hoax. With hundreds of Swiftvets signing affidavits and prepared to testify on camera that was way too cold to push. We want to fact check that one, till, say, midway through Kerrys second term. But a handful of memos by one dead guy passed on to them by Mr. Barnes, a Kerry campaign operative from Austin that meets basic standards and we gotta get it out there, right away.

Amazingly, this guy, Lt. Col. Killian, in 1973 had the only $3,000 rich man's typewriter toy available to Air National Guard using a prototype version of the default letter writing program called Microsoft Word, complete with a tiny little superscript thingy that automatically changes April 1st to 187th. But these bigmedia Bolshevik mofos think we're still in the '70's, when they could pass on their vile, lying Marxist piece of shit propaganda and because they have the big voice no one would hear the truth.

It's very obvious that:
1. CBS was a willful party to this forgery.
2. CBS knows that someone close to the Kerry campaign is involved in this.
3. CBS thought they could get away with it because this wasn't the first time they've done this.

They deliberately run a manufactured story, based on an obvious fraud, in a blatant attempt to influence the election. This is journalistic fraud at an Enron level. We put people in jail for falsifying financial statements. These arrogant Bolshevik criminals at the Communist Broadcasting System belong there as well.
post #226 of 278
Correction:

That should read $30,000 and not $3,000 when taking inflation into account.
post #227 of 278
Mods: this member has been banned.

Fuck off, Mika.
meh
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meh
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post #228 of 278
ding ding ding!

Why did Dan Rather and CBS News, against all expectations, impeach their own credibility to defend the authenticity of memos that are almost certainly forgeries? The obvious answer is that they did it to save the faltering Kerry campaign from a final and decisive blow. If CBS were to admit that the documents were forgeries, it would have no grounds for protecting its sources. In fact, CBS would have a positive obligation to do everything in its power to expose the malefactors behind the forgeries. If the trail led back to the Kerry campaign, president Bush's reelection would be assured. Dan Rather has been at pains to derogate those who are interested in where the documents came from. This sounds suspiciously like Rather is concerned about what a revelation of his sources might mean. Certainly, if Rather personally received the forgeries from a Kerry operative, it would be a disaster for Rather. That alone might seem to be sufficient to explain CBS's refusal to admit its error. (It now appears that CBS News may well have received the documents from a partisan and highly questionable source.)

post #229 of 278
Expert cited by CBS says he didn't authenticate papers

Quote:
The lead expert retained by CBS News to examine disputed memos from President Bush's former squadron commander in the National Guard said yesterday that he examined only the late officer's signature and made no attempt to authenticate the documents themselves.

Further down...

Quote:
The analysis shows that half a dozen Killian memos released earlier by the military were written with a standard typewriter using different formatting techniques from those characteristic of computer-generated documents. CBS's Killian memos bear numerous signs that are more consistent with modern-day word-processing programs, particularly Microsoft Word.

"I am personally 100 percent sure that they are fake," said Joseph M. Newcomer, author of several books on Windows programming, who worked on electronic typesetting techniques in the early 1970s. Newcomer said he had produced virtually exact replicas of the CBS documents using Microsoft Word formatting and the Times New Roman font.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #230 of 278
This whole thing is very interesting in that bloggers on the internet were able to debunk these memos in a flash. Before that there we be no way any regular citizen could examine these documents for themselves. We'd all just have to take Dan Rather's word for it that they were real.

Power to the people
post #231 of 278
(Note to y'all: there's a "report this post" button in the lower right of each post, the lightning bolt. Use it instead of writing as much in here!)
post #232 of 278
Which is all very well, but the fact remains that the documents aren't necessarily forged. It hasn't been proven.

Until we get the originals we won't know, will we. Or until the White House makes a firm denial, I won't rest easy.

The documents haven't been 'debunked.' Sorry, but they haven't.
post #233 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Which is all very well, but the fact remains that the documents aren't necessarily forged. It hasn't been proven.

Until we get the originals we won't know, will we. Or until the White House makes a firm denial, I won't rest easy.

The documents haven't been 'debunked.' Sorry, but they haven't.

Until they are proven to be authentic, news organizations should not be running stories that make allegations about people based off that information.

As for the White House, how can they issue a denial about the actions of another person who happens to be dead?

Are they supposed to issue a denial that Killian wasn't pressured to sugar coat something from someone who had been discharged and retired for 18 months when the memo mentions them?

How does that work? How do you issue a denial about someone else's actions?

The documents have been more than debunked. CBS has no originals, no experts or witnesses willing to confirm anything at this point, and are left hanging high and dry since they went down a path so low that even most yellow journalism won't touch it.

Answer me this Hassan, did CBS even attempt to get the other side of the story? In almost all objective news reporting, you at least try to get some of the other side of the story, especially when allegations are being leveled.

Did CBS air one person who doubted the authenticity of the memos? Did they air one person who mentioned the lack of letterhead, the address being a P.O. Box, the lack of procedure, the strangeness inconsistancy of the abbreviations, a member of Killian's family, anyone?!?!

What CBS aired is pure, one-sided, unconfirmable, fraudulent propoganda. There is no balance to their presentation, nor even anyone who was critical. There are no shades of gray nor even a critical word.

But as Hassan will remind us, it is not enough to obey Big Brother, you must LOVE Big Brother.

You have certainly proven your love Hassan. You won't even doubt a pure, uncritical, one-sided propoganda piece.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #234 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
Forgot to take your amphetamines today, faust9? You missed your usual 10 new threads/ day quota.

Wow cleaver. Did you think of that yourself? Here's one--Did put down the republican crack pipe long enough to troll a forum which you've been repeatedly banned from to troll yet again? Yep.

Well enough of the silliness. The clock tower told me it was time for my jog a few minutes ago.

Enjoy your trolling.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #235 of 278
Alright, you guys leave off ghost killa, he is a quick wit and has made some very some very relevent posts. Also Hassan i Sabbah, you should be ashamed of yourself for stamping your foot and refusing to open yourself to the realities of these documents while smearing ghost killa as a banned poster---who is (s)he really?


Also, I used the 1984 reference a couple of weeks ago so it's.....


Mine! MINNNNNNE!!!!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #236 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
The documents haven't been 'debunked.' Sorry, but they haven't.

Forgive me, but shouldn't they have to be proven to be authentic rather than debunked as forgeries? You can't claim this was solid investigating by CBS to support their story, no matter how much you believe their reporting to be true.

Even if these documents prove to be valid, CBS was still remiss in their initial investigation of the story. It will be subsequent science that proves the case for one side or the other, instead of the solid case being presented up front as it should have been.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #237 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Alright, you guys leave off ghost killa,

Fuck that. One of the first things GK did was break the rules and attack me personally.

Fuck that.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #238 of 278
What kind of moron would attempt to forge a note from the 1970s using a word processor?!?!?

I mean, hasn't that crossed anyone's mind yet?

That in itself is so stupid that it is screamingly suspicious:
1. Either they are forgeries and the perpetrators are truly stupid (how hard is it to get a hold of a typewriter?)

or,

2. They are not forgeries and people who are invested in trying to find problems will find them, and those who are 'credible' will be 'gotten to' by the RNC

or,

and this is starting to force itself more and more at me as a possibility:

3. they are forgeries, done poorly and foisted onto an unsuspecting and lazy news source eager for a scoop by the RNC in order to discredit ANY and all questions concerning Bush's record:
Just think about it: what a coup to have forgeries turn up!!
How hard is it, for a crew as dirty and vicious as we know them to be, to come up with that idea: "hey, what would happen if, rather than real records turning up, we managed to have obvious forgeries turn up? . . . that would kill em, just kill em"

I mean, the question, what kinda moran would forge a note from the 1970s using a word processor? is just too relevant to not ask.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #239 of 278
**runs to the kitchen for more tin foil**

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #240 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Alright, you guys leave off ghost killa, he is a quick wit and has made some very some very relevent posts. Also Hassan i Sabbah, you should be ashamed of yourself for stamping your foot and refusing to open yourself to the realities of these documents while smearing ghost killa as a banned poster---who is (s)he really?

don't want to play
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