Another leftist attack bites the dust? - Page 2

I'd like to present into evidence item ZZ--a document produced in 1972 that appears to have used a proportional font. Though the font type is a sans serif the spacing between letters is proportional.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilse...by_Reserve.pdf

just looking at the i's one can easily see the space occupied by the letter is not as large as that occupied by other letters; additionally, the space from the end of the previous character the the beginning of the next character around the i's is smaller than when compared to other letters such as d.

Finally, paragraph 2 the last few words of the last sentence contains the following: Reserve-Inactive. The capital I occupies less space than the Capital R.

Like pfflam said "shame on them if this is a forgery"; however, I'm inclined to believe it is not for the nonce at least.

[edit] Added a comparison...

Reserve-Inactive
Reserve-Inactive

I think CBS has gotten caught with their pants down. How does any sort of typewriter from that time do superscript?

Nick

Actually most fonts act dynamically via kerning. Using kerning definitions, one could create a font that does act like a poorly serviced typewriter.

Nick

That would be determined by the application, not the font itself. This is not something MSWord can do, and the fact that a typography expert would point to Word right off the bat makes me question how much of an expert they are.

It could be done with more powerful software, but anyone who would go to the trouble of manipulating kerning and tracking with typewriter-emulating fonts mostlikely wouldn't be using Microsoft Word but an actual print layout package.

Do you ever do research?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Selectric_typewriter


Combine those two features in 1971-- a year before the memo was produced on a relatively inexpensive typewriter. Bam--you've got superscript and proportional fonts.

<----Click here for details.

As for dynamic fonts: The letter selected depends on the adjacent letters. Look at the memo and tell us what you see.

Wow! It appears that a lot of these documents (not all) from 1963 must be forgeries!

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jf...3/contents.htm

CBS is sticking by their story, saying they ran them by their own experts and adding that one of their sources or points of confirmation for the genuineness of the documents is Killian's then-superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, who is mentioned in one of the documents and was involved in the back-and-forths described in the documents. A CBS source tells the Post that Hodges confirmed that the statements contained in the documents were concerns and thoughts that Killian expressed to him at the time.

The Times, meanwhile, has a piece up quoting Killian's son saying that he believes some of the documents are genuine but doesn't believe his father would have written the 'CYA' document.

By modifiying the kerning, you certainly can make the font look unevenly spaced. Kerning tables will not introduce imperfections in the actual font, though.

I've come across some typewriter fonts that contain multiple glyphs for each of the letters - usually 2 or 3 variations. These variations would not be generated by the word processing software, however. The user would specifically have to introduce them into the document through whatever keystroke is required (shift+alt+T for example).

I can't believe that no one is running down the hotmetal angle here---I'm sure every government office had a linotype.

Holy shit, I didn't even think of linotype.

I give up.

Look at all those 1963 FORGERIES!

What you are talking about would be done in the layout software, for instance, indesign's character pallete, where you control both tracking and kerning.

In other words, learning a new word on a blog doesn't make you an expert.

Hehe.

Somehow I doubt each of these officers were supplementing the heating of their offices with a Linotype.

Nick is half-right. Some fonts do include kerning tables which the applications make use of. These would be variations of kerning based on the character pairs being typed. When you're adjusting the kerning or tracking of a font which has an extensive kerning table in InDesign, you will basically be overriding the spacing which the font designer has implemented.

Maybe there is a typewriter font out there which has an extensive kerning table that allows for inconsistent spacing based on the character pairs being typed. I haven't seen one.

I definitely haven't seen a typewriter font which will change the glyph being used based on the character pairs, which seems to be what he was getting at in his post. Of course, this doesn't mean that there isn't one. I have my doubts, though, as I don't think this is a function of Type 1, TrueType, or OpenType fonts.

You know trumpt is now frantically searching all about fonts and kerning and kerning tables, etc.

Edit after seeing AP's post: yeah audiopollution, you and I know, but trumpt doesn't, hence why I'm not bothering with too much detail with him. We could talk about in detail about making fonts or comparisons of the different typewriter fonts available, but WRT to these memos, if we were talking about a forger sophisticated enough to be making a new font just for this then we wouldn't be talking about proportional spacing, would we?

I was speaking about spacing. I thought Grove was referring to a letter not looking like it had struck quite the same way within a letter. I do understand that if a font has been designed to say, look a bit faded, it will look consistantly faded, but what I was speaking about is how the letters hit the page. Sometimes on poorly serviced typewriters a certainly letter will hit a bit differently depending upon what was typed before it. This spacing can be replicated with kerning.

Nick

If this can make someone actively seek out what I was forced to sit through hours of lectures about then it's a good day.

This is the most hilarious political flamewar ever... typewriter smack!

I don't care about the Killian papers. I just don't.

The simple truth is that as a youth, the right-wing, pro-war George Bush could have tried to go to Vietnam but didn't, while John Kerry could have avoided going but did.

So Georgie was a hypocrite of the moment and is dishonest in retrospect.

It's that simple folks.

They would not have to manually manipulate the kerning and tracking. MSWord can do it because what I am speaking about would be in a standard font definition.

Nick

Actually Kerry applied for a deferment and had it declined before he decided to enlist. He had previously been granted deferments as well.

Nick

And personal insults and quips don't make you right.

Nick

Who exactly is the hypocrite here? John Kerry gave a free pass to draft-dodger Bill Clinton when he said: "we do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have personally always believed that many served in many different ways." Then when he runs for President, he says this: ""The Republicans are running $10 million this week to attack my credentials on defense. This comes from a president who can't even show or prove that he showed up for duty in the National Guard. . . ." or this: "George Bush has yet to explain to America whether or not, and tell the truth, about whether he showed up for duty."

The facts about Bush's National Guard service are this: he at no time did not accumulate the required service points for any year of his service. In fact he accumulated enough service credits for his six year committment that he was allowed an early exit so he could attend Harvard Business School. Get over it! This AWOL charge by Kerry and the DNC is totally unfounded.

You guys are priceless. You assume the documents are authentic but if they aren't the Bush campaign is behind the forgery...

Classic 7E7:

<---Click Me!!!

We're not debating on the content of the memos in most instance. We are debating the authenticity. From what I've seen (I'm not rereading every post to this thread) noone has said Bush was AWOL. The memos criticise Bush but not for being AWOL. Finally I might have missed it but I didn't see anyone claim the docs where made by the republicans if they are not forgeries. If you saw this part please be so kind as to direct my to the respondent so that I read for myself.

Good day sir.

I my experience, the kerning tables will determine the spacing, not the program---sometimes to a fault.There are many differnt types of programs, and there are several different types (no pun intended) of fonts, and just as many versions of "Times New Roman", etc., to deal with. You can write your own font with a custom kerning table to make it look any way you wish. I've had to manhandle the IDIOTIC kerning from some fonts in some programs.


Anyway I have forgotten my point---except that you could, today do ANYTHING you want in typography with Quark and Fontagrapher (or InDesign if you're sick of Quark's shit.)

that cracks me up just thinking about it.


Has anyone here ever seen one up close? Amazing--my wife used to work for a comp who had one---used it for diplomas, and any really hoity-toity stuff---an amzing machine.


Main Entry: hoi·ty-toi·ty Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: |hid.|tid., |hd.|td.
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -es
Etymology: reduplication of hoity, from English dialect hoit, v.
1 a obsolete : thoughtless or frivolous or giddy behavior b : affectation of superiority : patronizing pomposity
2 : a hoity-toity person

Citation format for this entry:

"hoity-toity." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (10 Sep. 2004).

Alright, fuck it. Let's get into detail.

First, though, you already proved gorverat's point: that you can't forge a typewriter using just word. You have to use more sophiticated software.

And of course, why would a forger do that when he or she could just use a damn typewriter?

But let's see the detail. 1st: kerning tables deal with the spacing of pairs of letters, as opposed to tracking, which is overall spacing. This really is only something that would be of significance on an old bar-style typewritter where the bars get bent or stick together. Anyone that has used an old typewriter knows how bent bars behave, and it's not orderly. Kerning shouldn't even matter so much with pairs since the bigger problem with pairs of bent bars, in my experience, has been them sticking or rubbing against one another, changing the velocity of impact rather than the spacing. With a ball typewriter, I fail to see how hitting the same sequence of letters would consistently affect the kerning in a ball typewriter. They are two different mechanisms.

A kerning table will not solve the problems, and algorithmic kerning is notoriously bad (hence the need to adjust it all the time). The only real way to emulate it is to go in and adjust the text manually, as both grove and I have said. That's why normal people just use a real typewriter and why (in addition to the other problems with variation)typewriter fonts suck ass and always will.

But as was pointed out from the beginning, your whole kerning argument doesn't wash for a few major, major reasons, notably the fact that if someone created their own font for this they would not be using word and/or left in the features everyone is harping on.

Personally, I'm on the fence and reserving judgement on the memos. But you're google-searching game is really annoying. No one should have to go into this much detail to show how much of a fraud you are day in and day out.

Have fun making your keyboard smoke with the next series of google searches.

Okay. Bunge in an earlier post in this thread linked an article that made the suggestion that the White House was behind the documents. That is why I posted my reply. From everything I have seen regarding these documents I believe they are indeed fake. The son of the person who supposedly wrote the memos has said that their father in fact admired George Bush during his time with his unit and that he doubted he would have written those memos because it was not his style to do such things. And there are just too many technical inconsistencies in the documents that just cannot be explained away. Even if the technology existed back then does anybody really believe they existed in the office of the Air National Guard at that time?

And being an asshole doesn't make you cool, so I guess you guys tied at life.

No, that would give him another demerit.

And since posting like an asshole on PO automatically takes away your cool points, welcome to the club.

Goose. Gander.

G.H.W. Bush Attacked Nat'l Guard Service of Others

The White House is currently attacking those who raise questions about President Bush's National Guard record. They say the questions about Bush's failure to fulfill his commitment are "dirty politics."1 Yet a look at the record shows that it was President George H.W. Bush - and his top campaign strategist George W. Bush - who tried to smear the National Guard and military record of their opponents.

As reported in the August 23, 1988, Los Angeles Times, then Vice President George H.W. Bush's campaign co-chairman John Sununu went on national television to impugn an opponent's dealings with the National Guard during Vietnam. Sununu specifically claimed Sen. Lloyd Bentsen (D-TX) had improperly helped get his son into the Texas National Guard during Vietnam. Bentsen's son served in the very same National Guard unit at the very same time as George W. Bush. The Bush campaign's attacks came just days after Bush's allies on Capitol Hill launched a vicious attack on Gov. Michael Dukakis (D-MA) for receiving a draft deferment during the Korean War.

At the time of the coordinated attack, George W. Bush was serving as a senior adviser to his father's campaign.

AAAAAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Robert Novak, douchebag for America, just said that CBS should reveal their source!

Still not seeing it. Anywho, someone already posted a link to the NY Times article which quotes the son as saying he 'believes' at least one of the memos is real. Kind of shuttles your argument. Another thing is those typewriters were not as expensive as a mainframe computer. How much do you think they cost? Me I'd say about a $1000 a piece if that. If you don't think the military has the means or the wasteful nature to spend that much on a couple of typewriters then I suggest you join the military and find out. Also, the military used to allocate budgets for bases using the bases previous years spending. If a base didn't spend all the money allocated the previous year said base got less the following year. If bases had some extra $$ lying around near the end of a FY then that money was spent on lots of silly thing--I watched my dad spend almost 1.5 million dollars with a couple of pen strokes because is department had that much unspent. That was in 1978 at Wright Pat BTW.

That is pretty funny


But I will admit that even though the whole font/kerning issue seems merely to sew doubt, the most damning thing about these memos is that they exist at all . . . . why would an officer formely write such a thing down about 'sugar coating' . . . it would seem prudent, as his son has said, to destroy such records or simply not write them, much less type them . .

But, the ease with which the doubts have arisen makes me more suspicious about WHERE these really originated than anything else . . . .

I hate to be a thorough conspiracy theorist, but what would forclose any further questions of Bush's records betterr than to "Catch' the evil Liberal-lefties trying to cheat information?
What better way to raise doubts about anything having to do with them after such a 'fraud'?
If they are fake memos, then I think they were faked by someone OTHER than parties that are pro-Kerry . . . . at least it would be a distinct possibility. . . . it would be a sure-fire coup for BushCo.

I'm not trying to be cool. Just let you know you're out of line. And arrogant.

So let's see what we've got so far.

- Proportional fonts and superscripts have been shown on other Texas Air National Guard documents of the time.
- The font used in the CYA memo doesn't seem to match the font used in the above-mentioned, non-Killian memos.
- Killian's family doesn't think that he would write that, but they don't know he didn't.
- The experts who have seen the original think it's real via handwriting analysis and such. Many other experts who have seen the Internet copy think it might be fake.

Any other relevant facts?


"Do you see this here? Where it says 'I promise this is totally not a forgery. No fooling. Really, it isn't. I double pinky swear.'? I think that this is conclusive evidence that this is a viable document."

IT'S OVER:

Democratic pollster Patrick Caddell told Fox News today that if CBS's National Guard documents are forged, "the race is over":
Longtime Democratic strategist Pat Caddell said Friday that if documents aired by CBS newsman Dan Rather Wednesday night turn out to be forged, as alleged by experts, the presidential race "is over."

"It would be the end of the race," Caddell told Fox News Live. "It would be the end of the race," he repeated.

"[Democratic officials are] so involved in this," the former Carter pollster worried. "They have gotten themselves so involved in this issue [in] the last 24 hours that somebody's going to, if they're not authentic, they're going to be blamed for it. It's incredible to me that they've gotten in this." Caddell said..."I'm trying to save my party, you know, by telling the truth."

He said that forfeiting the presidential race would be the least of his party's problems if Democrats are tied to any forgery scandal.

"The race is over and we've got bigger problems than that," he warned.









An EVEN BETTER **Microsoft Word document** MATCH

**The superscript th in 187th now lines up perfectly with the CBS News original.

Actually, you assume your outcome. The fact that these documents are being questioned is because people think they look like word processing run through a photocopier a couple times. I really don't get how obtuse you are being with regard to this. People are saying it looks like a poor attempt to create typewriting in MS Word. They aren't claiming that it looks done on a perfect replica of a typewriter and that someone went through some insane amount of time and expense to create the false document using sophisticated custom fonts or high end typesetting programs.. They are saying the exact opposite. They are saying it looks fake because it DOESN'T perfectly forge a typewriter.

So if anything, you prove my point. For example someone posted that the Selectric II could be flipped to a vertical spacing of 10 or 12 points. This document had a vertical spacing of 13 points.


Again you assume your final conclusion and work backwards. You complain that my kerning issue is correct, but that it wouldn't apply to a typewriter with a ball mechanism. Why would I have assumed that they were emulating an IBM Selectric typewriter? I was speaking about the issue in a general manner. These letters are not from the Air Force Reserve. They are not on official letterhead. They are supposed to be from the private personal files of Jerry Killian who kept these files relating to people under his command.


The kerning might be bad at adjusting itself when you are wrapping the text along an arc in say a magazine page being done in INdesign, but we aren't talking about anything complicated here. This is straight up lines of text. Also you have it backwards again. Real typewriters could not do anything resembling true proportional spacing in the manner that computers calculate it with kerning. Typewriters are at best, like pianos which actually are a little detuned so that they can play in all keys and sound okay. A typewriter does not calculate anything and uses a mechanical mechanism that gives an appearance that looks better than pure monospaced font, but certainly not as good as the kerning on even the most basic word processing program.


Again, we aren't talking about the Magic Bullet and Kennedy or some such nonsense where a leap of faith (custom fonts and so forth) are required. We are not talking about a note so convincing that only the smallest percentage of people doubt it and do so through the most conspiratorial related publications. We are talking about large percentages of people, questioning through mainstream press that these documents looked fake right off the bat. You are the one wandering off into "super elaborate typewriter hoax" land. I hope you enjoy your stay there. The rest of us are in "This looks just like MS Word" land. The features that they point out in the note relate to how Word treats typing, not how a typewriter, Indesign or anything else treat type.

Nick

Actually aside from the th, that looks pretty darn exact. The other point to bring up is that you can have slight variations when printing from different printers.

I have a question though about typewriters and sub and superscripts that I want a few others here to clarify on. We all know that word usage can evolve a bit over time. I mean none of us here believes (at least I hope) that when we are going to change a font on our computer, we open up the case and change the ball hammering away inside.

When they talk about typerwriters of that period doing sub and superscript, don't they mean producing the same size letters but being able to move the paper in a manner that places it along side the previous letters in a form that represents sub or superscript? I don't recall the font ball having a whole set of extra small letters in a different font size. What I recall is typewriters that could say, move the paper a quarter line up, change the letter spacing a bit and allow you to type small case letters, and then move the paper right back to where it had been without losing its place. We called this sub and superscript, but that would be a very crude approximation to what I see Word do by actually proportionally shrinking the font by reducing its size.

Nick

from Salon warroom

I feel the birth of a new term: to be "swift boated" . . . meaning to have unbelievable criticism leveled against yourfacts in such a shrill and pugnacious manner as to have your credibility questioned despite the fact that the accusations are complete lies: to have shit thrown at you because it will stick no matter what the truth.