G4 or G5? - Page 2

64 bit laptops is not a new thing. VoodooPC and eMachines systems are powered by Athlons64 for almost a year. There are other 64 bit notebooks for quite some time now, like Tadpole's SPARCLE and SPARCbook, with some impressive specifications (like 160 GB storage and 4 GB ECC RAM). 64 bit notebooks is an old affair and I don't think it sets a pressure per se at Apple. Apple needs to find some other marketing point in a Powerbook G5. 64 bit plus something else, like they did in the case of the iMac G5.

You aren't going to wait for long...the 7448 is being taken out of the closet on the 27th at the Europe SNDF. Go to the Freescale site and have a squiz at the documents for the Forum, the 7457 and 7447A.

Oh, and prepare to be disappointed. An integrated memory controller is a goer, the addition of another FPU is a possibility...but an upgraded FSB ain't there (with perhaps an increase to 200Mhz, although Amorph amongst others have said how difficult it would be to do this).

But as per usual, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating

As for heat, unless Freescale can lower the voltage (a la IBM for the 970), heat is going to hang around as an issue, unless they can make steps towards greater passive cooling as well as decreasing the amount of power used by system controllers, hard drives, displays and video cards. The iMac G5 seems to be a step in the right direction.

Surely liquid cooling in a mobile setting is fraught with danger...the entire setup requires an extra level of durability than you would think would be possible at the current time. Yet, if Apple can throw enough money at the problem, it might go away

Funny I do not care for a PowerBook that can not run on battery power for any length of time. I do not care for hot low reliability hardware either.

As it currently stands the G5 would cripple any PowerBook that it would be installed in. I don't care about wishfull thinking I do care about the fact that IBM has yet to produce the low power version of the G5 that they thought was close at hand. The reality is that if 64 bit portability is needed one can always grab an iMac at this stage.

Now that does not perclude the introduction of a portable that is large than a PowerBook. I'm all for choice here, but I do not want to give up the option of buying a high performance machine that runs on battery in a significant manner. Really what is the sense of having a portable if you are a slave to the outlet. Frankly what Apple needs to do is to make significant strides with respect ot on battery time. They need to get back to 4 or 5 good hours of run time.

What Apple needs is innovation in the laptop segment. Maybe they need to look into solid state drives and low power displays to complement the current processors.

64 bits is where the future is at, don't get me wrong here. It is just that the current 970 FX hardware doesn't seem up to the task. Maybe IBM will get the technology repaired to allow low voltage operation and thus the possibility of a portable, but until then the G4 is the only good alternative. Well Freescale may eventually get to 64 bits but I wouldn't hold my breath there.

Thanks
Dave

I think the wait will be as long as it takes IBM to bring out a low power version of the 970. It is a mistake to believe that the current 970 has all its ducks in a row ready for portable operation.

Disappointed at what? You are responding to a guy that is suggesting a 64 bit device in the PowerBook yet this looks like commentary on the G4. The 7448 has yet to be released, but if Freescale has it running on a good 90nm process (not IBM's) it may indeed be very low power device relative to performance.

Apple has the ability to make significant cuts in power consumption with repect to its portable lines via a couple of avenues. One possibilty is that they can simply go to 100 or 90nm for the majority of the on board logic. This can all be done with the current platform.

On top of that they could go with a a high integration device. Freescale has many CPU's now that could be considered SoC implementations. Throw a 90nm G4 core or derivative into the mix and the potential is there for at least a partial SoC implementation. Just because the rumored 7448 is a drop in replacement for the 7447 and other G4's does not mean that Apple has to drop that into a new PowerBook. The simply could throw out the current logic board in favor of one with a SoC custom processor. Custom processors, built from standard cells, are a point of marketing for Freescale. If not the PowerBook Apple will certianly go this way soon with the iBook.

The 64 bit Powerbook will be a step in the right direction when the processor and support chips are ready. It is pretty clear that isn't the case at the moment. IBM is cetainly working on it but, as far as we know they are focusing on other 970FX problems.

Liquid cooling can mean many things. On the PowerMac that means a radiator from a Chevy. On other machines it can mean heat pipes. I'm sure that there are other possibilities. The big problem with the 970FX is that it has to run very fast, across a very fast I/O bus, to maintain acceptable performance. The resultant heat is an issue, but that doesn't mean that it can't be handled. The problem is that for a given performance level it does look like Apple has a better alternative if the G4 follow on.

Dave

IBM has stated, and always have, that the 970fx is a chip that suits a server, desktop and mobile systems. Now that PowerTune is here, they can cut not only the frequency but the voltage as well, as they are doing currently in the iMac G5. It is up to Apple to produce an enclosure that accomodates the heat of the 970fx plus the FSB, video, discs, etc...it's coming.

The 27th of which month? Care to post some links to support your points?

He's referring to EuroSNDF, which hobold@Ars refers to here.

He notes that Motorola has a mystery track for a high performance, low power PowerPC with Altivec. Occam's Razor says it's the 7448.

Freescale has an actual link to the Smart Networks Developer Forum conference here.

Details:

Session: Scalable PowerPC Solutions, Including the Launch of the New High-Performance, Low-Power PowerPC Microprocessor
Session ID: P1302
Level: Basic
Time: Tuesday, 15h4517h15
Location: 10201021
Presenter: Bill Dunnigan, Freescale Semiconductor Networking & Computing Systems Group
Abstract: PowerPC Host Processors from Freescale offer the highest performance embedded PowerPC processors, as well as offer the highest performance at under 10Wacross the board. This allows designers to both reduce the overall power consumption in their system and maximize the "MIPS per slot" in rack equipmentwhether this is a proprietary design, or an ATCA-based system.

Basically, nothing new from the abstract of it - this is for network devices using embedded platforms, not host processors running Mac OS X.

They're not mutually exclusive. The big routers and telecom switches use 745x parts, too, and 10W is about right for the upcoming G4s.

Agreed, but this is a Networking forum and to imply that they have something for Apple is highly unlikely. It would not be the place for it.

Like in this forum (and thread). - Thank you to point that out

Oh, I know 64 bit laptops were around. But, now there at 90nm. Apple will want to be the first to have an OS to utilize the 64 bit in the pbook. Which is of course tiger. So a pbook G5 will have to come between MWSF-WWDC.

It is up to apple to get an enclosure to fit the G5 and relieve heat(like Rhumgod said). Which leads to LCS in there. IBM has been developing an LCS for portables. Like it or not the G5 pbook will likely have a LCS in there. Then when the G5 gets cooler they can make it fan cooled again. For battery's it will most likely be fuel cell. So all eyes are on apple.

Since when isn't Solaris an 64bit OS? And there are 64 bit version of Linux and iirc some 64bit flavours of BSD too.

[edit] Not to mention that practically all OSs have been able to use 64bit FPUs for ages [/edit]

No offense to people using those two OS's. I should of said, that I am certain apple would want to beat MS to the punch with a 64 bit OS.

Why not?

My whole point was that the two applications aren't even close to mutually exclusive. 7400-series Motorola CPUs have been marketed primarily at embedded and networking markets from the beginning. Besides that, laptops are effectively embedded applications, and that's where this chip will be going if Apple decides to use it.

Why on Earth would Apple care where the CPU was announced? If it's not a PC-centric venue, that just means more of a surprise factor for Apple.

Good points, however, I do not see Apple attending the event. We all know Steve's insistance on being the one-to-announce so I doubt we will see anything geared toward Apple. Stranger things may have happened, but I just don't see it. That, and I cannot get over the fact that Apple has released new PowerBook product codes in the power management files in 10.3.5 that clearly are geared toward the 970fx with PowerTune.

I don't believe anyone does.


Apple has never beaten this kind of announcement as far as I'm aware. The exact specifications for the 603e through the 970 — at a dead minimum — were available publicly before Apple even announced a machine based on those CPUs. The fact is that Apple can't beat CPU announcements at technical forums (because they're made when the design's completed, some time before first silicon) and they don't try. There's no reason to: Who on Earth, outside of the industry, cares a whit about EuroSNDF? Who, stopped on the street and asked, would even know it existed? There's no revelation involved here: Motorola has been telegraphing this introduction since last fall, and details have been available since this past spring. The people who care, know. A new processor isn't news: A Mac shipping with that processor is news.


It's perfectly possible that the 7448/7458 will only appear in the 12" PB and iBook and eMac. It's also possible that Apple won't use it at all, although I consider that unlikely.

However, IBM expected to be delivering laptop-friendly 970s this past spring, and they just recently owned up to the fact that they haven't even figured out how to make them yet. So it's quite possible that Apple went ahead and prepped for a 970-based PowerBook, then fell back on Plan B when IBM tripped over 90nm and fell on its face.

Those specs include fan controls, as well as voltage and frequency reduction. I'd say that they are close to working models if that is the case. If not, why bother with specific specs?

Well to some of us that may be the case. Honestly though I've been facinated by the industry for a very long time. Lots of technology has come and gone (can anyone say transputer), but events like this do give one an opportunity to learn about trends and new technology. What is new may not be successful in an economic sense, but if one looks at modern processors there is a little bit of the past in everyone of them.

I also think it is very likely that they will be used. Hopefully the hinted at device will be a SoC or similar high integration device that would give the iBook or PowerBook both better performance and a much longer run time. Apple has slipped up a bit with what use to be market leadership in run time with the advent of Centino. It would be very rewarding to see them pursue that feature again. Rewarding in the sense that I might actually buy one of these machines.

It is not inconcivable that Apple might skip the 7448 if a suitable SoC become available. So the conference on the 27th could be fairly interesting. Freescale has been making alot of noise about the future of custom processors, Apple could very well be on the band wagon.

I think many people have simply missed this fact when they get excited about the coming G5 portables. Sure some sort of 64 bit portable is coming, but there are significnat hurdles to jump over yet. Those hurdles weren't suppose to be there but they are. What would be really funny is if Freescale where to be able to deliver to Apple a 64 bit device suitable for portables the same time IBM is able to. It would be very interesting to see whcih way Apple goes in that event.

I think you are missing the whole point of the last few bits of this thread. IBM had every intention of producing a 970FX with the abiltiy to run at reduced voltage, but have runned into road blocks. Sure they may get around those issues sooon but IBM doesn't currently have a working low voltage 970FX. The processor core currently operates over a vary narrow voltage range of 1.0 to 1.2 volts depending on frequency. The intention for the low power device was to run at 0.8 volts.

It is not that I don't think Apple is working on 64 bit machines. They may very well have a finalized design, but the chip isn't ready to drive the hardware yet. It may never be ready or it may be ready tommorrow. It really doesn't matter though as I still see Apple using the 32 bit line in atleast some of its portables. If for nothing else because many will reject a machine that sucks batteries dry in a matter of a few minutes.

Dave

Because they expected those specs to be met with the original release of the 970fx... last January. The fact that they're close to working models in the best case means that something went wrong, and Apple probably had to drop to a plan B, given that the 970fx they would have used is going to be at least 10-12 months late. Why not offer a 7448-based upgrade, which would be a simple bump, to tide the market over and give IBM plenty of time to get it right and get yields up on the new process (because a new process is their solution to this problem)?


Oh, you don't have to tell me that. I follow this stuff as closely as I can, given my layman's knowledge. What I meant was, who in the general populace, or in the media that caters to the general populace, cares? Apple knows they're not going to completely surprise the people who live and breathe white papers, but that doesn't matter because they're few and far between relative to the population at large. What matters to them is the impact of a surprise announcement to people who follow the popular media, or maybe Computerworld. They're not hoping to blindside M Isobe.

i recently (3 days ago) went to the apple store at the mall of america. i asked one of the employees there about several things, and the G5 powerbook came up. he said the new G4 powerbooks were coming out january, probably announced at macworld 2005. he said it was VERY unlikely that they'll have a g5 in the PB before summer-ish next year. because logically, the imac is 2 inches thick. the screen takes up relatively little of that space, and the disc drive the same. I/O ports add little space, and otherwise many other parts can be shrunk only so much. so the PB would be at least 1.5 inches and would have terrible battery life and crap for weight. so if you're deciding whether to wait for the G5 or not, don't wait, buy now or in january

why would they announce g4 speedbumps at mac world? especially since the new freescales wont be available for a few months afterwards?

Agreed!, Apple historically does not do this - new models of significance are announced but not spec updates.

Which has me thinking?, the PB and for that matter the ibooks are due for an update , but if they are not updated in October - could it be that we see a PB G5 at MWSF!.

I doubt it - im expecting a G4 update in October and expect to see the PBG5 by WWDC 05.

Just my 2 cents.

The only G4 bump that might be shown in an apple event is a dual core G4. But, that won't be around intill WWDC '05. We have to admit it now that the G4 is dying. It is a shitty CPU. I would rather have an IBM G3 then a G4 with comparable speeds.

Your entitled to express your opinion, but the announcements from Freescale suggests that the G4 at least for the ibook/eMac are very positive for future updates of these products.

As a low power high performance cpu - there very comparable to the Pentium M 'Banias' which powers most of the Centrino class machines. The 'Dothan' however, is awesome - and requires a G5 to be comparable in performance.

Thankfully, the Dothan is VERY expensive and is not used in many laptops - i think only laptops that are much more expensive than apple's 17". So apple does have some time before these prices come down and the PC folk take advantage of them.

We'll just have to wait and see - but its only matter of time before we see G5's in PB's and faster G4's in ibooks/emacs.

It may be a mistake to reference Apples behaviour with respect to the iMac simply because they didn't have any sales to amount to anything with respect to the iMac2. This is just the opposite of what is happening with the portables which still sell well and are atleast reasonably competitive with the rest of the world.

The trick here is to define your needs and then don't look back. If you really need the G5 in a laptop, then wait for it to come. It may take awhile or be here tommorrow. If you just want a G5 then I have to ask why you bothered to post.

The thing is if you needed a portable (I mean truely need one) you would go out and buy it tommmorrow when you woke up. The only reason to wait is if you truely need a G5, so you have to ask just what do I need that chip for. Heck if you really needed it quick, with fast hardware, you might get a laptop running linux on i86 hardware. In sense the chip doesn't mean much, it is the ability of the unit to solve problems or meet your needs that should be considered.

Thanks
Dave

Right, here is my beef. I've always had this philosophy about portables and power. Your can't have both, in their truest most potent form. Its like a balancing act, between power and portability. Water cooled this, 12" GPU that, multi-drive RAID this, multi-processor that. Power has historically been stationary.

And after going to CompUSA today and looking at the x86 notebooks the 17", super-thick, loud blower models don't appeal to me at all. Now the 13.3" wide-screen slim models however hmmm.

Suppose Apple needs to gauge interest in a G5 PowerBook; how it compares with current models. Then go from there, if they haven't already.

I have no problem with Apple offering its cusotmers what they want. If it is a G5 portable by all means go for it even if it ends up three feet thick. What I don't want to see disapear is the slim, light PowerBook of today. I specifically don't want to see a hot, short battery life machine with the weight of a line backer behind it.

Now I believe that Apple has plans for a G5 in a PowerBook type portable but apparently a few things happened to derail it. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the first 64 bit laptop from Apple makes use of a custom processor. A SoC or whatever the chic term at the moment is. If IBM has slipped as badly as some information indicates punting and grabing another play out of the play book might be a reality.

Dave