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post #41 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
And no, I do not believe that the religion of Islam is fundamentaly opposed to a democratic society.

Explain.
post #42 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I also realize by looking at history, the most progress Western Society made after the fall of Rome and before the establishment of the nation-state occured in the areas under Muslim rule...

You have access to history books that I don't?
post #43 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
Name them.

Roy Moore
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #44 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
the militaristic aspect of Islam is not a property that is universal in the history of Muslim States.

I'm going to have to call you on this as well.
post #45 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Roy Moore

What about Roy Moore?
post #46 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
I'm going to have to call you on this as well.

Well I'll pipe in and say that when Islam was first spreading the price for traveling as an infidel was 1 dinar. Not too militaristic now is it. The religion is not the tool of war, the people who practice it are. Ask the cainites how they feel (felt) about Judaism.
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #47 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
What about Roy Moore?

Do you know who Roy Moore is?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #48 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Well I'll pipe in and say that when Islam was first spreading the price for traveling as an infidel was 1 dinar. Not too militaristic now is it. The religion is not the tool of war, the people who practice it are. Ask the cainites how they feel (felt) about Judaism.


So when Rome extracted her levies from the locals that wasn't militaristic either, I suppose.
post #49 of 125
You might want to read this before condemning the religion as a whole. http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Shinto, etc, have all had dark periods when the religion was usurped by fanatics as a tool for political control. Are the religions to blame? No. Are the usurpers to blame? Yes.

If you have a problem with islam is it stands now why don't you try to do something instead of starting threads whose central purpose is the spread of more religious fear-mongering?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #50 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Do you know who Roy Moore is?

He's a federal Judge. And they can pretty much do whatever they like in their court room, including building the tower of babel if they wished so.
post #51 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
So when extracted her levies from the locals that wasn't militaristic either, I suppose.

I guess driving down the Ohio turnpike is militaristic now because you have to pay a toll.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #52 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa He's a federal Judge.

Close but no cigar... Shows how much research you're willing to do prior to posting I guess.

Quote:
And they can pretty much do whatever they like in their court room, including building the tower of babel if they wished so.

Wrong again.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #53 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
Explain.

Well, most intelligent people have the wherewithal to separate the religion from the religious. The religion is not the problem, the current interpretations and practices are. Tough to wrap your mind around a thing like this isn't it?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #54 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
You might want to read this before condemning the religion as a whole. http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Shinto, etc, have all had dark periods when the religion was usurped by fanatics as a tool for political control. Are the religions to blame? No. Are the usurpers to blame? Yes.

If you have a problem with islam is it stands now why don't you try to do something instead of starting threads whose central purpose is the spread of more religious fear-mongering?

Religious fear-mongering?

I just call it as it is. Why are you so afraid to look in the mirror?
post #55 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
The religion is not the problem, the current interpretations and practices are.

The current interpretations are the same as they were always. And I don't see anything that will change that.
post #56 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
I guess driving down the Ohio turnpike is militaristic now because you have to pay a toll.

Do they call it a Dhimmie tax?
post #57 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
Religious fear-mongering?

I just call it as it is. Why are you so afraid to look in the mirror?

I'm not the one who fear his reflection. I live in an area with a large muslim population. I've read the Koran. I've been to the ME--including Jerusalem, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Dubai, Oman, and few others. I know these people. I don't base my views of them on the actions and writing of a few. I base my views of them as individuals which I have met and call friend to this day. You live in fear and you are trying to spread that fear in this thread. The religion is not the problem some of the people who practice it are. You might trying reading in order to gain a more full historical world view.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #58 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
I've read the Koran.

And it made sense to you?
post #59 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
The current interpretations are the same as they were always. And I don't see anything that will change that.

This right here shows how ignorant of Islam you actually are. Islam has been redefined a few times since its inception the last being about 600 years ago.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #60 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
This right here shows how ignorant of Islam you actually are. Islam has been redefined a few times since its inception the last being about 600 years ago.


As heresy.
post #61 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
This right here shows how ignorant of Islam you actually are. Islam has been redefined a few times since its inception the last being about 600 years ago.

Which shows its false then.
post #62 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
And it made sense to you?

As much as the Torah(never read this only the interpretations found in the old testiment) and the books of the Catholic bible.

How do define "makes sense" BTW. Does it make sense to torture pegans and jews because of their religion? Does it make sense to enslave the cainites?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #63 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Which shows its false then.

How so? Interpretation occurs in all religions. Do we stone prostitutes at the gates in this day and age? No. False? No. Wrongly applied? Possibly (yes IMO actually).

The heart of most religions is love of god(s) then of people. Are they false? Who knows because death is the undiscovered country where we find out.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #64 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
As much as the Torah(never read this only the interpretations found in the old testiment) and the books of the Catholic bible.

How do define "makes sense" BTW. Does it make sense to torture pegans and jews because of their religion? Does it make sense to enslave the cainites?


The koran is totally useless without the accompanying text on which Islam is really based. I think you're being disingenuous with us when you say the same applies in Christianity or Judaism.
post #65 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
Religious fear-mongering? I just call it as it is. Why are you so afraid to look in the mirror?

Perhaps it is you who should look in the mirror before being so eager to cast a legitimate religious tradition with a history rich in cultural and scientific knowledge to a fallacious and clichéd stereotype.

What gives you right to say such hateful things? Have you actually expended the effort to try to know Muslim people, and understand the context in which attitudes towards the West held by some Muslims have developed?

What the world needs is more people willing to bridge the gap between Christianity, Islam, and Judaism -- to show that it is possible for people of these and other faiths to live with each other in peace.

It's a pity that some people really don't want that at all, and instead are content to be enslaved to their own fattened egos ("My religion is BETTER than your religion -- convert or die!"), or to their own sociopathic paranoia ("Anyone who doesn't think/act like *I* do must be EVIL and must die!")
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post #66 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
The koran is totally useless without the accompanying text on which Islam is really based. I think you're being disingenuous with us when you say the same applies in Christianity or Judaism.

Have you read it? Have you read the Sunna (aka Hadith)? I'll give you the Sharia; however the Shari'a is not from the word of Muhammad but on the interpretation of the Qur'an. The Shari'a is one of the problems not the religion itself.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #67 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9

The heart of most religions is love of god(s) then of people. Are they false? Who knows because death is the undiscovered country where we find out.

The heart of most religions is the rehashing of the pagan concept of worshipping the sun and related mythological idols. Is this false?

Only if you take it literally. There is a good message in all religions, but it is entirely lost when you take the message literally.
post #68 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by rampancy
Perhaps it is you who should look in the mirror before being so eager to cast a legitimate religious tradition with a history rich in cultural and scientific knowledge to a fallacious and clichéd stereotype.

What gives you right to say such hateful things? Have you actually expended the effort to try to know Muslim people, and understand the context in which attitudes towards the West held by some Muslims have developed?

What the world needs is more people willing to bridge the gap between Christianity, Islam, and Judaism -- to show that it is possible for people of these and other faiths to live with each other in peace.

It's a pity that some people really don't want that at all, and instead are content to be enslaved to their own fattened egos ("My religion is BETTER than your religion -- convert or die!"), or to their own sociopathic paranoia ("Anyone who doesn't think/act like *I* do must be EVIL and must die!")


Save the platitudes for the believers. We kufrs (sons of pigs and monkeys as Islam refers to us), don't all suffer from heat stroke you know.
post #69 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Have you read it? Have you read the Sunna (aka Hadith)? I'll give you the Sharia; however the Shari'a is not from the word of Muhammad but on the interpretation of the Qur'an. The Shari'a is one of the problems not the religion itself.



The sharia *is* the religion.
post #70 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
Save the platitudes for the believers.

Oh don't worry. I've got enough left for believers and non-believers alike.

Quote:
We kufrs (sons of pigs and monkeys as Islam refers to us), don't all suffer from heat stroke you know.

And just out of curiosity, what type of "kufr" would you call yourself, then? Christian? Jew?
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-Former Apple CEO Michael Spindler
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post #71 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa


The sharia *is* the religion.

Say 'POP' because you really need to pull out of your ass... The Shari'a is not the religion it is the interpretation of the religion used as the basis for laws. This tome is not used throughout the world as part of the religion, but you don't care about that do you? You only care about spreading more hate.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #72 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
Save the platitudes for the believers. We kufrs (sons of pigs and monkeys as Islam refers to us), don't all suffer from heat stroke you know.

Islam does not call you kufr. That is not found in the Hadith nor in the Koran. It's a colloquialism. Hey what about the caininites? I've mentioned them a couple of times but you've yet to respond about the Jewish slaves. What about pagans? I've mentioned them a couple of times but you've yet to respond about their persecution.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #73 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
How so? Interpretation occurs in all religions. Do we stone prostitutes at the gates in this day and age?


You're mixing tradition and interpretation. Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. And it's obvious that even at the time of Jesus, a most barbarous time by any standard, Jewish religious figures frowned on such barbarity.
post #74 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Islam does not call you kufr. That is not found in the Hadith nor in the Koran. It's a colloquialism. Hey what about the caininites? I've mentioned them a couple of times but you've yet to respond about the Jewish slaves. What about pagans? I've mentioned them a couple of times but you've yet to respond about their persecution.

It does refer to me as the son of pigs and monkeys.
post #75 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
You're mixing tradition and interpretation. Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. And it's obvious that even at the time of Jesus, a most barbarous time by any standard, Jewish religious figures frowned on such barbarity.

The Old Testiment says your wrong. Here I'll give some examples in easy to understand format:

Stone thy son:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the.../dt21_18a.html

Man lay with man:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the...y/lv18_22.html

How long to hang a sinner:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the...y/dt21_22.html

Prisoners of war:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the.../dt21_10a.html

Virginity:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the...y/dt22_13.html

Slavery:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the.../ex21_02a.html

I can go for quite a while. The books of our religion(s) are not free from evil as you believe them to be.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #76 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Hey what about the caininites? I've mentioned them a couple of times but you've yet to respond


Canaanites: the descendants of Canaan, the son of Ham. Migrating from their original home, they seem to have reached the Persian Gulf, and to have there sojourned for some time. They thence "spread to the west, across the mountain chain of Lebanon to the very edge of the Mediterranean Sea, occupying all the land which later became Palestine, also to the north-west as far as the mountain chain of Taurus. This group was very numerous, and broken up into a great many peoples, as we can judge from the list of nations (Gen. 10), the 'sons of Canaan.'" Six different tribes are mentioned in Ex. 3:8, 17; 23:23; 33:2; 34:11. In Ex. 13:5 the "Perizzites" are omitted. The "Girgashites" are mentioned in addition to the foregoing in Deut. 7:1; Josh. 3:10. The "Canaanites," as distinguished from the Amalekites, the Anakim, and the Rephaim, were "dwellers in the lowlands" (Num. 13:29), the great plains and valleys, the richest and most important parts of Palestine. Tyre and Sidon, their famous cities, were the centres of great commercial activity; and hence the name "Canaanite" came to signify a "trader" or "merchant" (Job 41:6; Prov. 31:24, lit. "Canaanites;" comp. Zeph. 1:11; Ezek. 17:4). The name "Canaanite" is also sometimes used to designate the non-Israelite inhabitants of the land in general (Gen. 12:6; Num. 21:3; Judg. 1:10). The Israelites, when they were led to the Promised Land, were commanded utterly to destroy the descendants of Canaan then possessing it (Ex. 23:23; Num. 33:52, 53; Deut. 20:16, 17). This was to be done "by little and little," lest the beasts of the field should increase (Ex. 23:29; Deut. 7:22, 23). The history of these wars of conquest is given in the Book of Joshua. The extermination of these tribes, however, was never fully carried out. Jerusalem was not taken till the time of David (2 Sam. 5:6, 7). In the days of Solomon bond-service was exacted from the fragments of the tribes still remaining in the land (1 Kings 9:20, 21). Even after the return from captivity survivors of five of the Canaanitish tribes were still found in the land. In the Tell-el-Amarna tablets Canaan is found under the forms of Kinakhna and Kinakhkhi. Under the name of Kanana the Canaanites appear on Egyptian monuments, wearing a coat of mail and helmet, and distinguished by the use of spear and javelin and the battle-axe. They were called Phoenicians by the Greeks and Poeni by the Romans. By race the Canaanites were Semitic. They were famous as merchants and seamen, as well as for their artistic skill. The chief object of their worship was the sun-god, who was addressed by the general name of Baal, "lord." Each locality had its special Baal, and the various local Baals were summed up under the name of Baalim, "lords."


You do realize Jews were also Canaanites? But why are you trying to change the subject?
post #77 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
It does refer to me as the son of pigs and monkeys.

And how did your religion refer to the caininites?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #78 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
And how did your religion refer to the caininites?

You said you read the Bible. Why do you need to ask me?
post #79 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
The Old Testiment says your wrong. Here I'll give some examples in easy to understand format:

Stone thy son:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the.../dt21_18a.html

Man lay with man:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the...y/lv18_22.html

How long to hang a sinner:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the...y/dt21_22.html

Prisoners of war:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the.../dt21_10a.html

Virginity:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the...y/dt22_13.html

Slavery:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the.../ex21_02a.html

I can go for quite a while. The books of our religion(s) are not free from evil as you believe them to be.


This is the best you could do?

post #80 of 125
Quote:
Originally posted by ghost killa
Canaanites: the descendants of Canaan, the son of Ham. Migrating from their original home, they seem to have reached the Persian Gulf, and to have there sojourned for some time. They thence "spread to the west, across the mountain chain of Lebanon to the very edge of the Mediterranean Sea, occupying all the land which later became Palestine, also to the north-west as far as the mountain chain of Taurus. This group was very numerous, and broken up into a great many peoples, as we can judge from the list of nations (Gen. 10), the 'sons of Canaan.'" Six different tribes are mentioned in Ex. 3:8, 17; 23:23; 33:2; 34:11. In Ex. 13:5 the "Perizzites" are omitted. The "Girgashites" are mentioned in addition to the foregoing in Deut. 7:1; Josh. 3:10. The "Canaanites," as distinguished from the Amalekites, the Anakim, and the Rephaim, were "dwellers in the lowlands" (Num. 13:29), the great plains and valleys, the richest and most important parts of Palestine. Tyre and Sidon, their famous cities, were the centres of great commercial activity; and hence the name "Canaanite" came to signify a "trader" or "merchant" (Job 41:6; Prov. 31:24, lit. "Canaanites;" comp. Zeph. 1:11; Ezek. 17:4). The name "Canaanite" is also sometimes used to designate the non-Israelite inhabitants of the land in general (Gen. 12:6; Num. 21:3; Judg. 1:10). The Israelites, when they were led to the Promised Land, were commanded utterly to destroy the descendants of Canaan then possessing it (Ex. 23:23; Num. 33:52, 53; Deut. 20:16, 17). This was to be done "by little and little," lest the beasts of the field should increase (Ex. 23:29; Deut. 7:22, 23). The history of these wars of conquest is given in the Book of Joshua. The extermination of these tribes, however, was never fully carried out. Jerusalem was not taken till the time of David (2 Sam. 5:6, 7). In the days of Solomon bond-service was exacted from the fragments of the tribes still remaining in the land (1 Kings 9:20, 21). Even after the return from captivity survivors of five of the Canaanitish tribes were still found in the land. In the Tell-el-Amarna tablets Canaan is found under the forms of Kinakhna and Kinakhkhi. Under the name of Kanana the Canaanites appear on Egyptian monuments, wearing a coat of mail and helmet, and distinguished by the use of spear and javelin and the battle-axe. They were called Phoenicians by the Greeks and Poeni by the Romans. By race the Canaanites were Semitic. They were famous as merchants and seamen, as well as for their artistic skill. The chief object of their worship was the sun-god, who was addressed by the general name of Baal, "lord." Each locality had its special Baal, and the various local Baals were summed up under the name of Baalim, "lords."


You do realize Jews were also Canaanites? But why are you trying to change the subject?

I know this; however you are dodging the subject. The canaanites (I've been misspelling it thanks for the correction) were held to a higher standard than the jews and destroyed for their sins--enslaved as well. I keep mentioning them because I know you're a jew but you don't want to address the evils committed by your religion against other cultures. Islam is no better or no worse than your religion. The practitioners need to reevaluate their stances--especially those in the ME-- but blaming the religion itself is wronge in no uncertain terms. Your wrong.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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