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The First Debate - Page 4

post #121 of 183
John Kerry is gonna win the elections.
If not, I'll eat my PowerBook: Including its 512Mb additional RAM.

;-)
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Merry Christmas !
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I'm The Boss... This Is Champaign...
Merry Christmas !
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post #122 of 183
Do you guys remember the Churchlady from SNL?

That's what Bush's expression reminded me of last night. Kind of puckered up and bothered. Most of the people interviewed after the debate said they both did well but Kerry came out the winner. He seemed so calm and easy with his answers. Prepared would be the term I guess.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #123 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
Bush's message is clear, understandable and consistently principled. He is who he is, he wears his heart on his sleeve. All I know is that you can think that 9/11 was a one time deal, to be dealt with in a old-fashioned police manner. Go on living your life like its September 10th, you'll feel better. But here in reality, you have to take the fight to the terrorists before it ends up on your doorstep again. A September 12th mentality is what it takes to lead this nation, and Bush has that.

On Bush's message: at least to me, it hasn't been clear or understandable. All I've been hearing from the republican camp is charges of "flip-flopping" and "we need to fight the war on terror" and "we need to get those terrorists before they get us." Ok... but now we're in Iraq where there were no terrorists because "we need to fight the war on terror"? I'm not sure I understand.

At least to me, it seems fighting the war on terror would be going after Al Queda and the Taliban, hunting down Osama bin Laden, putting an end to North Korea and Iran's nuclear (weapons) programs, and gathering up loose nuclear materials left over from the cold war.

Now don't try and label me a liberal, I'm an independent and regularly vote on both sides of the fence. With regard to foreign policy, all I've seen from the republican camp is attacks on John Kerry. So I'm genuinely concerned about what Bush's foreign policy is. When you say we're going after terrorists and then invade a country without terrorists in it, and provide (still) no exit strategy, it makes me wonder what their intentions really are, and why they really invaded.
post #124 of 183
I don't know about any of ya'll, but by the end of the debate, I wanted to put Bush, his incessant charges of "flip-flopping," his bizarre statements that "____ is hard work!" and his freaky blinking in a lock box.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #125 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
"...uh uh I just know how this world works."

Just like the conservative idiots on this board, full of unqualified one-liners that are just BS.

Exactly [!!!!] what I was thinking.
post #126 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
...in a lock box.

Now you're just trying to annoy me. That word should never, ever, be used in a Presidential debate again!
Any candidate using it should forfeit the election.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #127 of 183
I actually just saw the debate today on re-runs. I can't believe those who called the debate "close"

Kerry won hands down - I couldn't believe how uncomfortable Bush looked. I thought Kerry spent a little too much time writing, but it was a better strategy than just standing there looking like an idiot.
post #128 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by the cool gut
I actually just saw the debate today on re-runs. I can't believe those who called the debate "close"

Kerry won hands down - I couldn't believe how uncomfortable Bush looked. I thought Kerry spent a little too much time writing, but it was a better strategy than just standing there looking like an idiot.

Nothing wrong with writing things down. It's better to write "Bush is a F&*king idiot" on a piece of paper than to show it on your face. Kerry chose to write while Bush chose to show his emotions as facial expressions. Sneers and scowls are not good form during a debate. They give the impression of arrogance and appear like the scowler is asking via facial expression alone "How dare you question me!" No, write all you want Mr. Kerry. You gave the high-school bully the whipping he deserved. You'll do the same in the next two also (I said Kerry would do well here and no-one believed me).

DMZ: "It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." -- Mark Twain

You didn't watch the debate thus you are a fool for commenting on that which you have no knowledge of.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #129 of 183
PBS's News Hour had some interesting commentary last night on the mechanics, rhetorical styles, and things like body language and non-verbal cues.

Note taking was specifically mentioned as a technique used previously to some degree to distract the viewers from the points the other speaker is making. Kerry appeared attentive and one might conclude he was planning replies or noting details.

Bush, by contrast, took few notes, and his primary postures during the times Kerry was speaking seemed to be pursed lips, rolling eyes, and generally appearing distracted and not paying attention.

PBS noted that their coverage of the debate (which I watched) was primarily a single camera, sometimes in a two-shot or cutaway.
CNN, and many of the networks, including C-SPAN, apparently ran much of the debate in a constant split-screen two-shot, so you nearly always watched the responses of the other.

According to the early polling quoted by PBS last night, those who watched the single camera version or read the transcripts after the fact were more likely to conclude Bush had done well, or thought the overall result was a draw. Those who watched the split-screen were quite measurably of the view that Kerry won and/or that Bush had done poorly by comparison.

Some went so far as to argue Bush only does well in folksy town meeting style debates, where the barstool-buddy image seems more important for some reason, but purely on image and statesmanlike appearance, Kerry gained advantage.
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #130 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
[B]I mean, all Kerry has ever done in his 20 odd years in the senate is debate, thats what senators do. Of course his delivery and presentation will seem better. The difference in all of this is that Kerry, like most elitists in the Democratic party, is a thinker. He thinks he has all the answers, he thinks he has the plans.

rob corddry from the daily show, reporting from the bush camp immediately following the debate (somewhat paraphrased by me, so don't nitpick if i don't get every word right... my accuracy is at least as good as any republican soundbite these days):

jon stewart: "so, rob, what's the sentiment there in the republican camp?"

rob corddry: "orgasmic triumph, jon."

jon: "????"

rob: "you see, jon, as we all know, senator kerry is the son of french-speaking homosexual billionaires who has been honing his debate skills since the tender age of three. the fact that the president, who by many standardized tests is, in fact, clinically retarded, managed to escape the debate without bawling in tears can only be viewed as a success. lest we forget, this is a president who was nearly done in by a pretzel."
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #131 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
The difference in all of this is that Kerry, like most elitists in the Democratic party, is a thinker.

Are you saying then that Bush is not a thinker?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #132 of 183
completele off topic. Havn't mentioned for a while.

Pagan SUN Worship

Osiris-Horus-Zeus-Dionysis-Mithras-Jesus-MarcUKus

The age of Aquarius:Precession

"diabolical mimicry." My ARSE.
post #133 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by rok
rob corddry from the daily show, reporting from the bush camp immediately following the debate [. . .]

Here's that link for those that want it: http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play...ines/9040.html
post #134 of 183
A beaten man?

<--- click me.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #135 of 183
I taped the debate and Daily Show report but haven't watched 'em yet. I did see the last 30 minutes however, and watch some of the post debate coverage. Can't wait to see the whole shebang.

Bush was his usual weasel self. Kerry put on a good show.
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post #136 of 183
Just wait until Bush starts blaming others in his administration and then blames the failure on the populace, then you can be sure that Bush is the new Hitler.
post #137 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Just wait until Bush starts blaming others in his administration and then blames the failure on the populace, then you can be sure that Bush is the new Hitler.

But Hitler didn't do any of those things....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #138 of 183
Enjoy your assault on the President, but come election day you not be happy. The President looked angry because he was. He had to stand there for 90 minutes and listen to Kerrry's drivel.



Bush 55%
Kerry 45%


Moe
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #139 of 183
Well here's the truth......

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...oll/index.html

I knew the debates would be telling.


OUT THE DOOR IN 2004!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #140 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Enjoy your assault on the President, but come election day you not be happy.

Ain't that the truth.

Bush-Lite or Bush-Lite.

Democracy and choice is truly a gift from God.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #141 of 183
Well, since Gore sighed and the RepubliFOXes decreed that he lost because of it, then I guess Bush will lose.




"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #142 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
A beaten man?

<--- click me.

Good coverage from Newsweek:

Quote:
A whopping 63 million voters watched the Miami debate, and Kerry was scored the winner by 61 percent of them; only 19 percent thought Bush had won. Among viewers, Kerry overwhelmingly was regarded as the better informed and more self-assured. More ominously for Bush, Kerry was seen as the stronger leader onstage (47-44 percent)and even as the more likable guy (47-41 percent). Bush aides privately had to admit that it was a race again, understating the obvious.
eye
bee
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post #143 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
A beaten man?

<--- click me.

Should I point out the ironicness of you pointing to a Newsweek poll that doesn't balance for party representation or are you just going to admit you were wrong on the whole Gallup issue?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #144 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Should I point out the ironicness of you pointing to a Newsweek poll that doesn't balance for party representation or are you just going to admit you were wrong on the whole Gallup issue?

Nick

"Ironicness"



But good point, Nick. Kerry's lead could be even larger!
post #145 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
"Ironicness"


Besides the damage to this country and the world at large, think of the irreparable harm that might befall the English language if the chimp gets for more years.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #146 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Should I point out the ironicness of you pointing to a Newsweek poll that doesn't balance for party representation or are you just going to admit you were wrong on the whole Gallup issue?

Nick

Try " irony ".


Besides I seem to recall the republicans quoting the Newsweek poll just last week.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #147 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Should I point out the ironicness of you pointing to a Newsweek poll that doesn't balance for party representation or are you just going to admit you were wrong on the whole Gallup issue?

Nick

The ironicness of "ironicness" aside, didn't the Newsweek poll ID skew in favor of Republicans?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #148 of 183
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #149 of 183
The Bush PLAYDOWN/PLAYUP LIST:

1. PLAY DOWN "BRING IT ON" AND "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" AND STEADY WORSENING OF THE SITUATION, ATTIBUTE IT TO "HARD WORK":

Hard Work:
- It's hard work. It's incredibly hard.
- It's hard work.
- And it's hard work.
- It is hard work.
- It is hard work to go from a tyranny to a democracy.
- It's hard work to go from a place where people get their hands cut off, or executed, to a place where people are free.
- You know, it's hard work to try to love her as best as I can, knowing full well that the decision I made caused her loved one to be in harm's way.
- It's hard work.
- Everybody knows it's hard work, because there's a determined enemy that's trying to defeat us.
- We've done a lot of hard work together over the last three and a half years.

2. PLAYUP KERRY'S INARTICULATE GAFF AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE INGORANCE OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND THEIR DISINTEREST OF THE DETAILS OF THE ACTUAL VOTE FOR THE "87 BILLION".

Mixed Messages/Signals:
- He doesn't want U.S. leadership, however, to send mixed signals, to not stand with the Iraqi people.
- I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals to our troops, our friends, the Iraqi citizens.
- I think that by speaking clearly and doing what we say and not sending mixed messages, it is less likely we'll ever have to use troops.
- You cannot lead if you send mixed messages.
- Mixed messages send the wrong signals to our troops.
- Mixed messages send the wrong signals to our allies.
- Mixed messages send the wrong signals to the Iraqi citizens.
- The way to make sure that we succeed is to send consistent, sound messages to the Iraqi people that when we give our word, we will keep our word, that we stand with you, that we believe you want to be free.

3. PLAYDOWN THE DEATHS, ERRORS, WEAKNESSES, EVER SMALLER COALITION AND SPIN IT AS "STRENGTH".

Strong:
- The best way to defeat them is to never waver, to be strong, to use every asset at our disposal, is to constantly stay on the offensive and, at the same time, spread liberty.
- But if we remain strong and resolute, we will defeat this enemy.
- And that's why it's essential that we have strong alliances, and we do.
- And our alliance is strong.
- We're standing with you strong.
- Our coalition is strong. It will remain strong, so long as I'm the president.
- And our alliance is strong.
- By being steadfast and resolute and strong, by keeping our word, by supporting our troops, we can achieve the peace we all want.

4. PLAYDOWN THE FACT THAT WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS AND LOSING
- We're making progress.
- And we're making progress there.
- We're making progress.
- Yes, we're getting the job done.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #150 of 183


New reports that Kerry may have, against the agreed-to rules of both campaigns, brought in an illegal piece of paper. A cheat sheet? Who knows, no one but Kerry and his closest most likely. What affect might it have had?

Story Link.
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post #151 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan


New reports that Kerry may have, against the agreed-to rules of both campaigns, brought in an illegal piece of paper. A cheat sheet? Who knows, no one but Kerry and his closest most likely. What affect might it have had?

Story Link.

Perhaps it was a pen.

Anyway. I suppose this is to be expected. If you can't win, change the subject.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #152 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
New reports that Kerry may have, against the agreed-to rules of both campaigns, brought in an illegal piece of paper. A cheat sheet? Who knows, no one but Kerry and his closest most likely. What affect might it have had?

Story Link.

Ah, the smell of desperation.

Kerry cheated! He used his illegal brainwave disruptor pen to turn Bush into a stammering idiot!

Oh, wait. That was 20 years of heavy drinking and drugs that did that. And maybe falling off the wagon lately. Never mind.
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #153 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
Ah, the smell of desperation.

Kerry cheated! He used his illegal brainwave disruptor pen to turn Bush into a stammering idiot!

Oh, wait. That was 20 years of heavy drinking and drugs that did that. And maybe falling off the wagon lately. Never mind.

Ah, gutless character assassination and personal attacks. At least with Kerry, the attacks are on his political record.
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post #154 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
Ah, gutless character assassination and personal attacks. At least with Kerry, the attacks are on his political record.

I assure you, my character assinations are entirely gutfull -- whatever that might mean.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #155 of 183
If Kerry brought a pen in, that's a violation too. It looks like a piece of paper to me. Either way, it's a no-no.

And I disagree: While Bush was not at his best, he was no "stammering idiot".
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post #156 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
If Kerry brought a pen in, that's a violation too. It looks like a piece of paper to me. Either way, it's a no-no.

Then what did Bush pull out of his pocket? Have you seen the video? They both pull something out of their pockets at the same time, as they step up to the podiums. They sure look like pens to me.
post #157 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Perhaps it was a pen.

Anyway. I suppose this is to be expected. If you can't win, change the subject.

whatever it was....it was against the rules.

Kerry won. He impressed me very much so. I didn't agree with many of his comments/proposals but he impressed me. But this video does make me question what he whipped out of his pocket. In the end, who cares....but he did apparently break a rule...even if it were just a pen.
post #158 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell (in another extra thread)
Read all about it in this Drudge link. It couldn't be that both Kerry and Bush simultaneously pulled pens from their pockets at the same time. Nope. Kerry must have had a cheat sheet to have done so well in the debate.

Cheat sheet? Oh, it's far worse than that.

Kerry cheated by bringing a fully-loaded brain to the debate. He has been shamelessly acquiring knowledge over many years, even, for God's sake, reading things like books and news articles and reports! And then, as if that wasn't bad enough, Kerry has been using his <shudder!> intellect to process and internalize much of that information.

When his opponent's skills are limited to a few quips and aphorisms ("Tax cuts are good!", "Stay the course!", "It's hard work!", "I'm an optimist!", "Gotta be tough on terror!"), when his opponent literally seems to think in slogans and not at all beyond them, Kerry's baldly aggressive battle of wits against an unarmed man can't be seen as anything but dishonorable. It's the kind of thing the French would do, I'll bet!
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #159 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
Cheat sheet? Oh, it's far worse than that.

Kerry cheated by bringing a fully-loaded brain to the debate. He has been shamelessly acquiring knowledge over many years, even, for God's sake, reading things like books and news articles and reports! And then, as if that wasn't bad enough, Kerry has been using his <shudder!> intellect to process and internalize much of that information.

When his opponent's skills are limited to a few quips and aphorisms ("Tax cuts are good!", "Stay the course!", "It's hard work!", "I'm an optimist!", "Gotta be tough on terror!"), when his opponent literally seems to think in slogans and not at all beyond them, Kerry's baldly aggressive battle of wits against an unarmed man can't be seen as anything but dishonorable. It's the kind of thing the French would do, I'll bet!



my god....GROW UP. everyone agrees Kerry won, he appeared better prepared, smarter, calmer........ so why must you do exactly what you are criticizing bush supporters of.....ignoring things.

you're whole post said nothing in regard to what he took out of his pocket.
post #160 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
I think the lack of Scott, SDW, Naples, etc here at the moment is very telling.

Even the ignorants know when they're owned.

Run and hide mofo's

"Your world is crumbling"

Showing up only after Drudge throws you a bone is very telling as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
If Kerry brought a pen in, that's a violation too. It looks like a piece of paper to me. Either way, it's a no-no.

And I disagree: While Bush was not at his best, he was no "stammering idiot".

Tool!
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