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The First Debate - Page 2

post #41 of 183
I predict the next Gallup poll will have Bush on a 20 point lead.
post #42 of 183
I predict that anyone who still defends and supports Bush after that performance (on the ONLY topic with which is supposedly strong), needs a CAT-scan.

To defend that is to be in complete denial about this man's thinking capacity, communications ability and ability to accurately assess complex questions and problems.

My 14 year old nephew has more insight and intelligent things to say about foreign policy than George W. Bush. Who by the way, was obviously coached to repeat the same meaningless chants, over and over and OVER when he was stumped by any question given to him.

What a tool. I don't know how the hell any thinking person can vote for this guy. Seriously. It's like "Wellll, I know he's not the smartest or the best, but I really did enjoy that tax cut."

Pathetic.
Aldo is watching....
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Aldo is watching....
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post #43 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
I don't think Bush understood the concept of kerry being against how bush has handled things. Every time kerry made that point bush said "but you supported them in the first place"

the entire bush crew probably pushed him out on stage whispering "go get him! remember, bring up flip-flopping as often as possible!!!"
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
post #44 of 183
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #45 of 183
Yeah it seemed that way about the flip-flopping. Bush was careful not to use that term, but he might as well have with as many times as he harped on it.

I really got the impression Bush simply ran out of things to talk about in the final 1/3 of the debate. And the fact that foreign policy was to be his strong suit, he could be in for major trouble in the next two debates.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #46 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Watching the debate again on video, I reckon Kerry had a small edge. But it's not going to make much of a difference re. the election, which is what counts. Its almoist a certainty that it's going to be Bush for another 4 years, not that I look forward to that outcome.

He had a huge edge. Im hardly a Democrat sympathizer but Kerry came across as more intelligent, thoightful, and Presidential.
Bush looked like an idiot, way out of his league to be President of anything.
post #47 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Transcript

Thanks, is there a recording available anywheres?
post #48 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Has anybody else noticed that Bush's camera never shakes, never moves, is always rock solid. Kerry's camera seems to have a case of the shakes. Plus the camera is constantly being raised, lowered, bouncing.

Fox?

Bad cameraman or a lens that doesnt have image stabilization.
post #49 of 183
I had the debate on two TVs in my living room, one on CNN and one on FOX, to try and compare the different broadcasts.

I have to say I didn't notice any of the camera shaking that's been brought up, but that could be entirely due to the fact that I wasn't focused on one channel the whole time.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #50 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Thanks, is there a recording available anywheres?

C-span is airing it continuously right now.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #51 of 183
I noticed the camera go out of focus a couple of times, but it happened with both candidates. You'd think that the #1 cable news station would be able to focus cameras on near-stationary points, but apparently not.
post #52 of 183
This is not important and doesn´t show how good a president Bush is and should not be used in the campaign. But:

Mexed missages

"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #53 of 183
bush was a babbling idiot. it was kinda sad. don't like bush but i'm not sure i can bring myself to vote for kerry. may not vote...
post #54 of 183
OMG. Say it ain't so!

Kerry is not the ideal candidate but he is SO much better prepared (mentally and otherwise) to do this job well it's not even funny. Vote Kerry for God's sake! Maybe if some respectable member of the GOP were running against him I'd agree with you but COMMON.

Aldo is watching....
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Aldo is watching....
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post #55 of 183
The way Bush was twitching after almost every Kerry closing comment was pretty telling. Bush looked defeated, scared, unsure of himself AND his policies...he had that "shit I don't think people are buying my rosey world scenario bullshit anymore" look.


And what the heck is up with having to READ what to say time and time again? That was ridiculously lame.
post #56 of 183
I have to say, I'm relieved that the worst of my cynical fears regarding how this debate would be spun by the media haven't come to pass so far, and I can't see how the spin is going to turn pro-Bush anywhere but on Fox News.

Over the next few days, I think were going to be hearing phrases like, "In the first debate, which is generally being regarded as a win for Kerry...".

Of course, what I'd really like to be hearing more of is "John Kerry hit one out of the ballpark!", which is how I feel about it, but I suppose that's hoping for too much and projecting my own views too much.

I get the impression that the Democratic spinmeisters brought out to comment for the Kerry side had been coached beforehand to be politely controlled no matter how much they personally felt Kerry had won, because if I'd been asked, I'd have had a hard time not loudly crowing that Bush had been owned. The would-be President came off very presidential -- knowledgeable, controlled, calm, strong -- while the actual President was unsure, uncomfortable, terribly lacking in specifics, and about as presidential as the losing side of an unprepared high school debate team.

Think of the fact Bush's people spent days coaching and rehearsing Bush for this debate. From the way his performance went, I'll guess that the rehearsals ended up going something like this: "Look, Dubya's just not going to be able to get all this prep material down. Let's just stick to a handful of tried-and-true stump speech lines, a couple of generic fallback phrases like 'we're workin' hard on that', get Dubya to memorize those, and hope he can pull the right stock phrases out at the right times with a little folksy charm thrown in."

And then, after all that debate prep work, Bush couldn't manage to do anything but bumble and burble through his small stockpile of pre-chewed replies, obviously having a hard time during those long, awkward silences and "err, ums" while he was trying to figure out which of his pre-packaged answers he was supposed to use, and struggling to remember just how the wording went.

I just wish there was a TV commentator who the guts to call it like I saw it, saying that Bush's performance was "truly pathetic".
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #57 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
And what the heck is up with having to READ what to say time and time again? That was ridiculously lame.

What do you mean?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #58 of 183
I only saw the last part of the debate.

it seemed to me that Kerry won.

However, if I were inclined to believe at all costs in Bush's 'message' then I understand how it would appear that Bush won.

Generally, though Kerry re-introduced himself to the 'people' and gave a statesman-like and poised performance, whereas Bush seemed to have only 'consistency' where what he is being consistent with is the last four years.

I think the coup for Kerry was the moment when Kerry all but created a new "Issue" that the Bush administration has failed on . . . namely the irradication of old nuclear stocks in Russia.

The one place where Bush has a pressure point is when he brings up the possibility that critiquing the war is NOT supporting the troops . . .

But you can weigh the respective strengths on the depths of those two issues: nuclear remnants floating around, vs, mexed missages.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #59 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
What do you mean?

Faust, I was referring to Bush having to pause, cluelessly, to FIND and read a talking point directly. LIke a kid who gets lost during reading class. It was pathetic.

My 9 year old nephew who has no clue about politics said something like "hah, he's reading big time" . lol...I kid you not.
post #60 of 183
What was up with Poland BTW? "...Britain then Poland but to be fair Costa Rica put us on the do not call list."(Stewart stoner laureate).
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #61 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Faust, I was referring to Bush having to pause, cluelessly, to FIND and read a talking point directly. LIke a kid who gets lost during reading class. It was pathetic.

My 9 year old nephew who has no clue about politics said something like "hah, he's reading big time" . lol...I kid you not.

I didn't know what you refering to. Kerry had the intelligence to take notes throughout the entire debate--and used them-- in order to counter Bush's arguments in a clear concise method. Go figure. Bush OTH wrote down the talking points as soon as he could and just kept rehashing them over and over.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #62 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
I didn't know what you refering to. Kerry had the intelligence to take notes throughout the entire debate--and used them-- in order to counter Bush's arguments in a clear concise method. Go figure. Bush OTH wrote down the talking points as soon as he could and just kept rehashing them over and over.

Not just the hand written notes. Bush obviously had talking points he needed to find and blatantly READ from a few times. It thought that was really sad.
post #63 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
You left out the silent pause before that

Point taken.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bush








































*chirp, chirp*










































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post #64 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by rok
anyone catch the daily show's review of the debate? i mean, clark and guiliani sure had different views on how the debate went, huh?

p.s. if the democratic election crew has two licks of sense among them, they had better have picked up on one crucial detail:

bush does not like to be told he is wrong to his own face. you can see it gets under his skin quickly, and the role of the challenger to an incumbent is to say that the current direction is wrong, so george had better get a thicker skin FAST. i see the democrats seeing a seam in the armor and hitting it for all they're worth now.

Rudy is a total shill!!! I just saw it and man did Guiliani dodge--Stewart called him on it though and it was funny. Catch is at 7PM tomorrow on Comedy Central and be counted as an educated stoner.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #65 of 183
Yeah, I saw that, too.
post #66 of 183
Perhaps crucial for those who only watch the one debate...
or those who take my copywriting or professional practice classes.

Kerry asked for the opportunity to lead blah <transcript has full version of long phrase>
Bush explicitly said "I ask for your vote".

So while Bush didn't use his time well, seemed off topic and repetitive and generally showed less substance in his closing statement than Kerry, he would get bonus points for explicitly asking for the desired behaviour.

Kerry scored a few points but also missed a few opportunities to score more.

Bush seemed mostly repeated platitudes and pouty attitudes (no wonder the republicans wanted the two shots banned) and "I know how the world works" defensiveness, but he remembered to ask for the vote straight up.

Kerry better learn that one, but otherwise he seemed far more presidential.
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #67 of 183
Wow what an all-out failure for Bush. A t-o-t-a-l collapse. HE SUCKED. It was awesome to watch, yet painful (that this cretin is in fact, in charge). Kerry scored major points with me and my crowd (as opposed to merely being the lesser evil)

Bush was EMBARRASING. (Moreso than usual)

Kerry was dignified and suitably incredulous at this baboon.

Can't wait for the next two debates.

BTW, I'm a civilian, I have no requirement to be civil or respectful to Bush. You want respect, you earn it.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #68 of 183
Guiliani gave a speech here in Wisconsin the other day where he was riffing on the fact that Kerry didn't know all the players on the Boston Red Sox . . . the man seriously, and I mean he was serious, said that the fact that Kerry didn't know the players was a sign that kerry was not 'real' . . . was not a 'real' genuine down-to earth person for knowing sports figures from his home town . . .I mean he went off on him because of this, using it as a reason to slander Kerry

and after saying that Kerry's character is not 'real', not a 'genuine' forthright character because he doesn't know the players for the team , he said that it is absolutely important in a time of war to have a 'real' person leading us . . .

so, to lead in a time of war one must know their baseball players.



It was one of the most absolutely unbelievably stupid things I have ever heard in politics

supposedly many people in the audience got up and walked out after he said that
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #69 of 183
I would say the debate won't change the minds of those who follow politics and have a preferred "team". There was no "knockout" from either side.

Kerry came off the better of the two, but that's to be expected. If you can't come off as a better public speaker than Bush, stop wasting everyone's time.

Bush's lack of eloquence actually works in his favour at times, since it clicks with regular people. I don't know middle America well enough to say if that will work this time.

BTW, are some of you (presumably undecideds) really going to decide your vote on the FIRST debate when there are two others left? That's odd.

Is the next one where they debate the "lockbox"
I sincerely hope those rules they agreed on banned the use of that word.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #70 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
BTW, are some of you (presumably undecideds) really going to decide your vote on the FIRST debate when there are two others left? That's odd.

There's only two undecided people who post here. And my margin of error is -2.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #71 of 183
National Review's very pro-Bush Jay Nordlinger calls it, though he can barely bring himself to have to say it, a big win for Kerry:

Dont Shoot the Messenger... 'cause this assessment's grim.
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
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post #72 of 183
We all clapped when a tech-support guy got the video feed on the projector to work 10 minutes after the debate began. I was already conceding defeat days before, so I figured I'd commiserate with the rest of the college kids on campus who decided to watch it together. I figured that would be the high point of the night. But I was pleasantly surprised.

A couple stunners I thought worked for Kerry:

Quote:
LEHRER: New question, two minutes, Senator Kerry.

Colossal misjudgments. What colossal misjudgments, in your opinion, has President Bush made in these areas?

KERRY: Well, where do you want me to begin?

KERRY: The president just talked about Iraq as a center of the war on terror. Iraq was not even close to the center of the war on terror [...] before the president invaded it.

KERRY: The president hasn't put one nickel, not one nickel into the effort to fix some of our tunnels and bridges and most exposed subway systems.

KERRY: Well, you know, when I talked about the $87 billion, I made a mistake in how I talk about the war. But the president made a mistake in invading Iraq. Which is worse?

KERRY: But you can't tell me that when the most troops any other country has on the ground is Great Britain, with 8,300, and below that the four others are below 4,000, and below that, there isn't anybody out of the hundreds, that we have a genuine coalition to get this job done.

You can't tell me that on the day that we went into that war and it started -- it was principally the United States, the America and Great Britain and one or two others. That's it. And today, we are 90 percent of the casualties and 90 percent of the costs. And meanwhile, North Korea has got nuclear weapons. Talk about mixed messages. The president is the one that said, "We can't allow countries to get nuclear weapons." They have. I'll change that.

KERRY: I've had one position, one consistent position, that Saddam Hussein was a threat. There was a right way to disarm him and a wrong way. And the president chose the wrong way.

KERRY: The national intelligence assessment that was given to the president in July said, best-case scenario, more of the same of what we see today; worst-case scenario, civil war.

I can do better.

Okay-- I really can't quote the entire speech here.

The thing was-- I figured Bush's soaring rhetoric would actually play well with a lot of people. This was by no means Bush's worst performance. His spring 2004 primetime press conference (yes-- they've been sparse enough to refer to seasonally) takes the cake easily. A hostile (read: one that does its job) press corps provoked the most stunning silences, garbled answers, and repetitive talking points. None of that tonight.

I think we saw a big miscalculation instead. Bush relied on his folksy charm, emotional pleas, and almost petulant attitude towards the Senator-- as if he was too busy to be bothered to actually explain his views. I thought that impatience was calculated as a way to deride Kerry.

I'm happy but cautious.
post #73 of 183
I went through the transcript. I haven't seen the video so I have missed out the body-language.

Bush is using the F.U.D. tactic and he thinks he is going to win for some reason. He is not addressing the concerns raised by Kerry. He is trying to play with words just to make Kerry look bad.

Kerry is making half-baked promises as all politicians do before an election. At least the thought process is in the right direction. Six months for a Iraq pull out is bull shit. But hey, a Iraq pull out is better than GWB's perenial presence in Iraq even if happens after a year.
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #74 of 183
The only accurate transcript (the one with all the mispoken words and akward shit) is at NYT.com. But no transcript does it justice. You have to see it to know how bad Bush really was.
Aldo is watching....
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Aldo is watching....
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post #75 of 183
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politic...d-debate_x.htm

USA Today asks some undecided voters their view of the debate. Looks good for Kerry.

MSNBC's poll http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/#survey

Enjoy
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #76 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by talksense101
Six months for a Iraq pull out is bull shit

Bush called Kerry out on this one, and then Kerry's explanation was something along the lines of, "I never said we'd be out in six months. What I said is that if things go according to my plan, we get other nations in there [blah blah, etc...], then in six months we can begin to pull troops out and gradually reduce our numbers in Iraq."
post #77 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by Ra
Bush called Kerry out on this one, and then Kerry's explanation was something along the lines of, "I never said we'd be out in six months. What I said is that if things go according to my plan, we get other nations in there [blah blah, etc...], then in six months we can begin to pull troops out and gradually reduce our numbers in Iraq."

I think what you meant to say is that Bush trotted out another lie, trying to put words into Kerry's mouth that he didn't say. Kerry then called him on it, in what I thought was his most devastating reposte of the night. He began by restating his actual words - that, if we follow his plan, we could start to reduce troop numbers in six months. He then wove that into the larger point that we can't win the war if Iraqis and Arabs think we're there to conquer - taking a potshot at the President for giving the impression we were there for the oil, and planned to stay forever. To paraphrase, we can only convince Iraqis to fight for their country - we'll never convince them to fight for us. Most significantly, he explicitly pledged that we had no long-term designs on Iraq, and that we would not base significant numbers of troops there indefinitely. That was a major policy statment, and GWB, given the chance to rebutt it, choose not to.

Aw, heck, since that was my favorite bit (apart from the line about learning not to try to put leashes on his kids), it's worth posting in full. The body language was great, too, which the transcript obviously doesn't capture.
Quote:
The timeline that I've set out, and again, I want to correct the president because he's misled again this evening on what I've said. I didn't say I would bring troops out in six months. I said if we do the things that I've set out and we are successful we could begin to draw the troops down in six months.

And I think a critical component of success in Iraq is being able to convince the Iraqis and the Arab world that the United States doesn't have long-term designs on it. As I understand it we're building some 14 military bases there now. And some people say they've got a rather permanent concept to them.

When you guard the oil ministry but you don't guard the nuclear facilities the message to a lot of people is maybe well, maybe they're interested in our oil.

Now the problem is that they didn't think these things through properly. And these are the things you have to think through. What I want to do is change the dynamics on the ground. And you have to do that by beginning to not back off of Fallujah and other places and send the wrong message to the terrorists. You have to close the borders. You've got to show you're serious in that regard. But you've also go to show that you're prepared to bring the rest of the world in and share the stakes.

I will make a flat statement. The United States of America has no long-term designs on staying in Iraq. And our goal in my administration would be to get all of the troops out of there with the minimal amount you need for training and logistics as we do in some other countries in the world after a war to be able to sustain the peace.

But that's how we're going to win the peace. By rapidly training the Iraqis themselves. Even the administration has admitted they haven't done the training. Because they came back to Congress a few weeks ago and asked for a complete reprogramming of the money. Now what greater admission is there, 16 months afterwards, oops, we haven't done the job. We've got to start to spend the money now. Will you guys give us permission to shift it over into training?
post #78 of 183
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Mexed missages


I'm glad someone else caught that. My friends and I were having a good laugh at that one. The fact he was talking about not sending mixed messages and managed to mess up those words was priceless.
post #79 of 183
Well I think being the Pres is hard work ....and it's tough....X6...WOW what a good debate....Bush had so much to say ...uh I mean what did he say again?????....Kerry looked an acted very tough...they need to hammmer em oh so hard for the next 30 days or so..
post #80 of 183
I love the smell of post-debate coverage in the morning...
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
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