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I may vote for Kerry and here is why:

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Did you hear that both candidates "believe" WMD Nuclear Proliferation is their gravest concern?

Did you hear that Bush said they "busted" the A.Q. Kahn nuclear proliferation network?

Gee.. that is funny... For such a serious subject Bush and Blair permit Kahn to be pardoned by Musharif and he gets to keep his millions made in the nuclear proliferation business as well as keep his freedom and his multi-million$$ mansions. (and Martha Stewart serves jail time) enough said.


Kerry says it will take Bush 13 years to secure unsecure material in Russia and that he will do it in 4 years.

That is a campaign promise I like the sound of.

It is more important than tax cuts which normally I do side with the president on however you can not put a price on humanity and future generations.

I believe Kerry won this debate and Bush has failed our country and the world.

Call me a flip-flopper if you wish with my ideas with politics but that is the nature of an unbiased thinking individual.

Love me or hate me.

John Kerry John Edwards 04

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #2 of 28
You're kidding right? Haven't you seen Kerry he's orange! no way I'm voting for him.
orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #3 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
You're kidding right? Haven't you seen Kerry he's orange! no way I'm voting for him.

And the botox!!! Curse Kerry for not fighting back against the botox alligation!!!
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #4 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
You're kidding right? Haven't you seen Kerry he's orange! no way I'm voting for him.

exactly...and Fellowship, stop flip-flopping

-Neø
Crunch for the Cure!
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Crunch for the Cure!
http://www.find-a-drug.org/

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God created Adam and Eve, He didnt create Adam and Steve
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post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
All I can say is that Bush found Saddam more important than Osama BL. Bush (oops I mean Americans) spent more on Iraq in temrs of troops and money than on Bin Laden. Bin Laden and co. killed 3,000 Americans.

Saddam killed ? Americans yet he is worthy of our resources according to Bush.

However when it comes to WMD proliferation and nuclear or (nuc-U-Lar) proliferation A.Q. Kahn was "busted" errrrrrrrrrr uhhhhh he was pardoned and got to keep his money and mansions and freedom.

Gee that is tough on the WOT ehh?

Bush is not worthy to be president.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #6 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Call me a flip-flopper if you wish with my ideas with politics but that is the nature of an unbiased thinking individual.

I wouldn't call you a flip-flopper; rather, I'd say I'm impressed. You look at the issues and see which man stacks up better, without just being a cheerleader Dem or a cheerleader Elephant.

That's the way idealists like myself believe it should be. Citizens weighing their choices and voting their assessment, not the media's, or their uncle's, or their team's party line.

:thumbs up:
post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship

John Kerry John Edwards 04

OWN3D, neø
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Kerry says it will take Bush 13 years to secure unsecure material in Russia and that he will do it in 4 years.

That is a campaign promise I like the sound of.

I just want to add that I wholeheartedly agree with the above statement.
post #9 of 28
Fellowship: AI's own little swing voter focus group.
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Kerry says it will take Bush 13 years to secure unsecure material in Russia and that he will do it in 4 years.

That is a campaign promise I like the sound of.

Me too.

But I call bullshit.

Anybody who truly believes an American President can set a time table on ending the proliferation of unsecured armament left over from the Soviet Union from present day Russia is dreaming. Putin is the number one person who should working at this, but he's too busy destroying any semblance of democracy that may have existed in Russia to be bothered with the issue. And without Putin giving a crap, we can't hope to do anything of major significance to curtail the movement of weapons out of Russia.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Me too.

But I call bullshit.

Anybody who truly believes an American President can set a time table on ending the proliferation of unsecured armament left over from the Soviet Union from present day Russia is dreaming. Putin is the number one person who should working at this, but he's too busy destroying any semblance of democracy that may have existed in Russia to be bothered with the issue. And without Putin giving a crap, we can't hope to do anything of major significance to curtail the movement of weapons out of Russia.

It just seems to me that Kerry is setting a tone to work with the world to solve these issues and raise the issue in the first place.

I am not impressed that Bush diverted forces to Saddam when A.Q. Kahn is slapped on the wrist (pardoned) by Musharif and A.Q. Kahn gets to keep his money, mansions and his freedom when what he did could result in the deaths of more than 3,000 Americans.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #12 of 28
The war on terrorism is a GLOBAL war. We were just "lucky" it hadn't hit us hard yet.

Fellowship...I don't know what to think of you anymore. You may just be pulling ANOTHER fast one. But if you are sincere, I am very glad one more person is seeing that the country is bigger than the party.

Change starts one step at a time. The BUsh corp. OUT is the best first step.
post #13 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
It just seems to me that Kerry is setting a tone to work with the world to solve these issues and raise the issue in the first place.

I am not impressed that Bush diverted forces to Saddam when A.Q. Kahn is slapped on the wrist (pardoned) by Musharif and A.Q. Kahn gets to keep his money, mansions and his freedom when what he did could result in the deaths of more than 3,000 Americans.

Fellowship

And there is zero reason to believe Putin, the same guy who'd use the slaughter of children to make a power grab within his own government, would be any more helpful in regards to excess armaments within Russia than Musharif (or even our own government) has been in properly dealing with Kahn.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #14 of 28
The problem, Fellowship, is that your thinking on some issues is way too simplistic.

With regard to Kahn, do you really think that Bush and Blair didn't want him locked up? Thank the Lord you're not in charge of things like that. There are serious ramifications to martyring a popular hero in a part of the world that is a powder keg to begin with.

With regard to the second item, rageous said it already.
Politicians are free to make unrealistic promises in the heat of a campaign, but that's a whopper by anybody's standards.

Kerry did a very good job in the debate, but that promise and the suggestion that the U.S. should provide Iran with nuclear fuel stumped me.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Me too.

But I call bullshit.

Anybody who truly believes an American President can set a time table on ending the proliferation of unsecured armament left over from the Soviet Union from present day Russia is dreaming. Putin is the number one person who should working at this, but he's too busy destroying any semblance of democracy that may have existed in Russia to be bothered with the issue. And without Putin giving a crap, we can't hope to do anything of major significance to curtail the movement of weapons out of Russia.

Have you heard of the Nunn-Lugar program? This isn't bullshit, it's a decade-old cooperative effort between Russia and the US to reduce the dangers from Russia's Cold War weapons stockpiles. You can read all about it on Sen. Lugar's website.

Briefly, it ammounts to the US paying to employ Russian nuclear scientists, destroy decomissioned delivery systems, de-weaponize stockpiled uranium, move other weapons-grade materials into well-secured facilties monitored by the US, upgrade security at active weapons storage sites and biological/chemical research facilities, etc.

The idea is that the Russian didn't have the money, and may not have had the motivation, to do all this themselves right after the collapse of the USSR. So we stepped in to help. IMO, it's one of the single most far-sighted and cost-effective national security strategies developed under the first President Bush. If you're a terrorist, would you rather build a billion-dollar enrichment facility, or bribe an underpayed Russian soldier to let you steal a working warhead? That was the nightmare in the 90s, even before 9/11, and it's well on the way to being just a bad dream. But this President Bush inexplicably has decided that Nunn-Lugar isn't a priority in the War on Terror. He's actually proposed budget cuts in some of the Nunn-Lugar programs, and refused to back calls from Democrats in Congress, post-9/11, to ramp up spending and accelerate the whole process. Kerry took him to task for that tonight.
post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
With regard to Kahn, do you really think that Bush and Blair didn't want him locked up? Thank the Lord you're not in charge of things like that. There are serious ramifications to martyring a popular hero in a part of the world that is a powder keg to begin with.

It's just a little ironic, though, to boast of "busting the AQ Khan network" when Mr. AQ Kahn himself is enjoying the life of a national hero. Some might even call that a, uh, what's the softer word? Misrepresentation? I don't think there's anything about that whole affair that we can be proud of.
post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
the suggestion that the U.S. should provide Iran with nuclear fuel stumped me.

The idea is that we have no real right to stop them if they honestly want nuclear power. In fact, we have an obligation under the non-proliferation treaty to help. So we offer to supply them with fuel that is much more difficult to use to produce weapons-grade materials, and, ideally, work out an arranegment where the spent rods are sent to another country (Russia) for disposal - so there's no possibility of their being secretly diverted for a weapons program. Inspections and verification and all that too. They keep their nuclear power program, we get assurance that they aren't diverting material for bomb-making. If nothing else, putting it on the table is an international show of good faith, and helps build a more effective coalition if/when the mullahs make it clear they really just want weapons. In other words, it's a clever bit of diplomacy that strengthens our hand if there is an eventual confrontation. And if Iran actually accepted - well, that'd be just peachy.

MediaMatters has a quick summary of the issue.
post #18 of 28
The idea of helping Iran create nuclear power is genius, because that gives us great access to monitor their use to make sure they don't use it to make weapons.

It is such a great idea that Bush won't go near it.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
The idea of helping Iran create nuclear power is genius, because that gives us great access to monitor their use to make sure they don't use it to make weapons.

It is such a great idea that Bush won't go near it.

To be fair, it's not just Bush.

It has been the West's policy ever since the Orientalist heyday to prevent the east from joining the developed nations. Bush is just continuing the process - it looks like he is proactive because he is so incapable of innovative policy development that it is impossible to rationally assimilate as a possibility - primarily because to do so would be an ipso facto indictment of the process that allowed him to get to where he is but mainly because humans are just not equipped for those sort of abstruse mental gymnastics.

But I digress - the west has a vested interest in keeping the underdeveloped nations underdeveloped. Any apparent exceptions such as Saudi, Bahrain or, God help us, Abu Dhabi are complicit in this process (and consequently are hated throughout the Islamic world) and actually prove the contention if you observe their actions.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #20 of 28
Quote:
Kerry says it will take Bush 13 years to secure unsecure material in Russia and that he will do it in 4 years.

This is the same old BS candidates do when they run.

They promise the world and then often never follow through.

To much fighting between the two parties to get a single damn thing done. One side will vote against something in spite even though it is something they think should be done.

One party does not want the other to get any kind of upperhand.

I think its comical that crap like this pops up all over different forums and people whine and bitch about one candidate or the other.

Its Washington DC people. Its a freakin trainwreck.

Just go on and enjoy your lives and don't get so wrapped up in BS.
post #21 of 28
Given the money and attention I don't see why securing Russia's loose material would be that big of a deal.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Me too.

But I call bullshit.

Anybody who truly believes an American President can set a time table on ending the proliferation of unsecured armament left over from the Soviet Union from present day Russia is dreaming. Putin is the number one person who should working at this, but he's too busy destroying any semblance of democracy that may have existed in Russia to be bothered with the issue. And without Putin giving a crap, we can't hope to do anything of major significance to curtail the movement of weapons out of Russia.

The issue isn't giving a crap, it's money. Russia is the largest country in the world, and one of the most populous, but it has a Federal budget around the size of the budget of the State of Texas. Securing this nuclear material is very expensive. So expensive that there's only one government in the world that could foot the bill.

That's us, by the way.
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
Kerry did a very good job in the debate, but that promise and the suggestion that the U.S. should provide Iran with nuclear fuel stumped me.

If we provide the fuel, we can make sure it's not weapons grade, and we can also attach a bajillion and seven strings to it, like constant monitoring of the material and random, comprehensive inspections.
post #24 of 28
This was a good idea by Kerry. meanwhile what has george been doing? Iran has given him the finger and continues.
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post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
[ . . . ] bajillion [ . . . ]

'bajillion' . . . is that French ?

bah + jeel + yohwn
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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
The issue isn't giving a crap, it's money. Russia is the largest country in the world, and one of the most populous, but it has a Federal budget around the size of the budget of the State of Texas. Securing this nuclear material is very expensive. So expensive that there's only one government in the world that could foot the bill.

That's us, by the way.

Well that's where you're wrong. It doesn't matter if we foot the entire bill ourselves. Without a determined effort by the Russian government to stop this proliferation, no amount of money we give them will be successful in stopping the problem.

Russia has not given any indication this is a problem they are serious about dealing with.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Well that's where you're wrong. It doesn't matter if we foot the entire bill ourselves. Without a determined effort by the Russian government to stop this proliferation, no amount of money we give them will be successful in stopping the problem.

Russia has not given any indication this is a problem they are serious about dealing with.

Hmm. Did you miss my direct response to you? We've been doing it together with them for thirteen years now. The Russians have been fully cooperative. It's just a matter of making it a priority and giving it a little more money to speed up the work.
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally posted by Towel
Hmm. Did you miss my direct response to you? We've been doing it together with them for thirteen years now. The Russians have been fully cooperative. It's just a matter of making it a priority and giving it a little more money to speed up the work.

Then you and I choose to disagree on what cooperative means. I think it's been a halfassed effort to this point, and I think the easy availability of large quantites of weapons even after thirteen years of "full cooperation" reinforces my argument.

And again, Putin isn't interested in making it a top priority. He's busy stealing democracy.
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