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How important is terrorism? - Page 2

post #41 of 91
The new limousine can withstand an RPG attack.

This was widely spoken of pre-9/11.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...2+rocket&hl=en

Quote:
Dan Rather, Phil Jones
CBS Evening News with Dan Rather

January 24, 2001

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. DAN RATHER, CBS ANCHOR: Capitol Hill police and the Secret Service have launched a full investigation into a security breach on Inauguration Day. A man cracked into a restricted area and got what`s called euphemistically "an unscheduled handshake with President Bush." And the story gets even more bizarre. CBS` Phil Jones has details. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PHIL JONES, CBS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Despite unprecedented inaugural security -- the first time ever for security checks along the parade route -- and despite the president riding in a new limousine that`s built like a tank to withstand a rocket attack, presidential security was still penetrated for a few seconds on Saturday. The incident happened right here outside the same Capitol entrance used by a man in 1998 when he shot and killed two Capitol police officers. On Saturday, President Bush went to this area to begi...

No Rather jokes please. The bottom line is that it was a widely spoken "fact" at the time, pre-9/11.
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post #42 of 91
You know john, while I've had a very strong feeling for some time that the events of 911 didn't add up, I've remained undecided about what Bush knew. Partly, because the idea that he did know seemed so fanciful and partly because having studied History at uni I expect a certain degree of proof to be achieved before I'll cop something.

You just succeeded in convincing me. Congratulations. That's not easily done. I knew all those details but something about the way you put it suddenly made the truth clear. There will probably never be conclusive proof but it's a case of that well-known comment made by Sherlock Holmes in Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's "The Sign of Four".

Quote:
when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth


Now this sounds like the whacko conspiracy theory
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
1. no, no, no, (and no) when you are on (or under) fire, you DO NOT RUN like some flushed grouse
2. his limo was secure? I'd be willing to bet someone checked
3. secure too? since it was 'public knowledge' that the Great Evil Bush was in town, no one was standing in the fligh path with an SA-7 handy? Good to know.
4. Ah yes, the "Secure location", they stay secure all by themselves, and like the pentagon itself, are immune from attack
5. This is probably the best one, since no one knew for quite some time what was going on

1. Think Kennedy's assassination and the attempted assassination of Reagan. What was the reaction like?
2. A helluva a lot safer than the school. Why would he make the kids a target by hanging around?
3. Ditto for Air Force One. It's not like they leave it on the tarmac unattended. All they had to do was succeed in getting him airborne. Then he's a lot less of a target.
4. You've gotta be kidding with this one right? The Cold War lasted almost half a century and you think they haven't got anywhere secure to put him.
5. Even if it had turned out to be a civilian plane accident, you'd expect him to depart immediately to be briefed on the situation. I watched it unfold live on TV, I didn't need anybody to tell me it wasn't an accident when that second plane hit.

The depraved fucker knew. It may seem improbable but the combined sum of the alternatives is impossible. And thus the truth is revealed.
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post #43 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
330 mm of armor penetration -- yikes

5 inches of protection in limousine compared to 3/4 inch drywall and cinderblock of the classroom?
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post #44 of 91
Thanks chester.

Well, the point is to be skeptical but with an eye to the facts. Both extremes are wrong, be it official version or crackpot theory.

...

With presidential security, if the threat is truly unknown, you proceed with maximum caution, assume the worst. That means physically protecting the president. That would have meant a 3 stage scenario: 1. get walking, president-into-limousine 2. get moving, president-into-Air Force One 3. get flying, president-into-secure bunker.

You do not just sit there.

To sit there means that the situation is known to be safe. How could they know it to be safe if so much was "unknown".

They knew.

I won't say Bush himself knew the exact details. Plausible deniability is an American invention after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability

Quote:
Plausible deniability is a political doctrine originally developed in the United States of America in the 1950s and applied to operations by the then newly-formed Central Intelligence Agency.

Plausible deniability involves the creation of power structures and chains of command loose and informal enough to be denied if necessary. The idea was that the CIA (and, later, other bodies) could be given controversial instructions by powerful figures -- up to and including the president himself -- but that the existence and true source of those instructions could be denied if necessary; if, for example, an operation went disastrously wrong and it was necessary for the administration to disclaim responsibility.
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post #45 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
I could be wrong on this, but didn't Bush find out about the first plane hitting the WTC before arriving at the school? I agree with your post by the way.

5 very bizarre things that require explanation re. Bush at the school in Florida that day:

Bush *said*, on a subsequent meeting (not quite verbatim but fairly close):
Quote:
"I saw the first plane hit the tower. It was on TV. What a horrible thing to have happened. I used to fly myself, and that must been some lousy pilot."

Now this could be interpreted to mean "I saw that the plane had hit the tower".

..but he remarks on the circumstances in the same breath. I guess it could be taken either way.

It gets weirder: Why the hell did Andy Card walk over to the president, whisper "the 2nd tower has just been hit. America is under attack", and then instantly walk away, as if the president would have had nothing to say in reply, or make some order. To sit there like that goat in Jurassic Park, probably trying not to crap his pants, isn't exactly a very presidential response.

And also very peculiar: shortly afterwards, Ari Fleischer, then White House Press secretary was stood at the rear of the hall with a placard made of legal paper, and written on it in black marker pen: DON"T SAY ANYTHING YET. WTF? Since when does the press secretary go ordering the President what and when not to say something, especially during a national crisis?

This last aspect is probably the most troubling: The president's Secret Service detail is trusted (mandated) to protect the president at all times, with their lives if necessary. The president's location on September 11 was public domain for 48 hours before the event at the school. It should have been assumed, if the attacks were by terrorists, that the President would have been a primary target. That is criminally obvious. As soon as one member of the president's secret service team learned that the 2nd tower had been hit, he said: "OK we're OUTTA here". He was immediately overruled by his superiors, and as a result, they all stayed on in the school, including the children and teachers, all in terrible danger of being attacked. This action, or lack of it, was either irresponsibility of the grossest proportions, or someone in charge knew that Bush was in no danger. We all know what happened: the entire presidential gathering stayed put for another half hour, while other attacks were ongoing, and nobody seemed (on the surface) to have any clue as to how many hijacked planes were running amok in the skies.

And coincidentally, (but also peculiarly) Florida Gov. Jeb Bush inexplicably declared a state 'martial law' executive order on Friday, September 7, 2001.

Florida Executive Order No. 01-261 states, in part:
_
"I hereby delegate to The Adjutant General of the State of Florida all necessary authority, within approved budgetary appropriations or grants, to order members of the Florida National Guard into active service, as defined by Section 250.27, Florida Statutes, for the purpose of training to support law-enforcement personnel and emergency-management personnel in the event of civil disturbances or natural disasters and to provide training support to law-enforcement personnel and community-based organizations relating to counter drug operations. This Executive Order shall remain in full force and effect until the earlier of its revocation or June 30, 2003."
_
This Fla. EO places the Florida National Guard (which is not a lawful militia), a unit of the Federal U.S. Army, in control of all Florida law enforcement (State FDLE, County Sheriffs, and local PD's) and the Florida Emergency Management department (Florida's FEMA under federal FEMA control).

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #46 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
I won't say Bush himself knew the exact details

But once you arrive at the point that he knew, it's hard to come to any conclusion that doesn't involve him being complicit to some extent. Some things could be explained away. Maybe there was an intelligence leak that gave the hijackers forewarning of the war games. But what? Every time the US Defence Force stages these type of training exercises they just cross their fingers, leave the country's defence wide open and hope today isn't the day the US is attacked.

Not after Pearl Harbour.

If this was for real the SS would've manhandled him out of that school and explained themselves later.

What I'm thinking he didn't know (indeed what it was even claimed at the time OBL didn't expect) was that the buildings would collapse. This might explain the long silence before he made a statement. I'd imagine that could easily cause chaos to reign for a day or so.

Has anybody ever tried to make any estimates of what the death toll might have been had the buildings not collapsed?
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post #47 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
5 inches of protection in limousine compared to 1/4 inch dry wall and cinderblock of the classroom?


--330 mm is 12.99 inches.


Quote:
If the threat is truly unknown, you proceed with maximum caution. That means physically protecting the president. That would have meant a 3 stage scenario, president-into-limousine, president-into-Air Force One, president-into-secure bunker.

You do not just sit there.


Take offs and landings, folks. I have to disagree, you have to look before you leap. Planning takes time -- you guys are acting as if Bush sat there for an hour. What are we talking about, 20 minutes?

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #48 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
--330 mm is 12.99 inches.

Armor penetrating capacity is usually in terms of steel RHA. 5 inches of ceramics/composites can be the equivalent of several times that thickness of RHA. Don't you read Tom Clancy?

I think it defies belief that the SS would rather him stay in a unsecured, publicly known location than at least get him to the nearest AF base or Guard post. But it's even more unreal that he sat in the chair for seven minutes. It's not like he retreated into a war room and started barking orders. You know, stuff like, "find out what happened" or "scramble every fighter" or "you have the authority to shoot", you know, routine stuff like that. No, he sat in his chair, and said nothing to anybody. I had always chalked it up to pure confusion and cowardice, but that doesn't explain why no one grabbed him and pulled him away.

How could no one have grabbed him and pulled him away, unless there was no reason to, and everyone with authority knew it?

I swear I'm becoming more of a left-wing nutjob with each passing day. Thanks for the new info Sammi, I hadn't heard most of that before, and I've read (skepticly) a few of the wacko conspiracy sites on these here internets.
post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
--330 mm is 12.99 inches.

Wow. My pen...cil is 329 mm long.
post #50 of 91
Another nugget:

This is from 1997:
----------------------------
Department of Defense
DIRECTIVE NUMBER 3025.15
February 18, 1997
SUBJECT:_ Military Assistance to Civil Authorities

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/c...2/d302515x.htm

4.7.1._ Immediate Response._
Requests for an immediate response (i.e., any form of immediate action taken by a DoD Component or military commander to save lives, prevent human suffering, or mitigate great property damage under imminently serious conditions) may be made to any Component or Command._ The DoD Components that receive verbal requests from civil authorities for support in an exigent emergency may initiate informal planning and, if required, immediately respond as authorized in DoD Directive 3025.1 (reference (g))._ Civil authorities shall be informed that verbal requests for support in an emergency must be followed by a written request._ As soon as practical, the DoD Component or Command rendering assistance shall report the fact of the request, the nature of the response, and any other pertinent information through the chain of command to the DoD Executive Secretary, who shall notify the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and any other appropriate officials._ If the report does not include a copy of the civil authorities' written request, that request shall be forwarded to the DoD Executive Secretary as soon as it is available.
----------------------------



And this is from June 2001:
----------------------------
CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF INSTRUCTION
AIRCRAFT PIRACY (HIJACKING) AND DESTRUCTION OF DERELICT AIRBORNE OBJECTS (CJCSI 3610.01A)
June 2001

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjc...i/3610_01a.pdf

c. Military Escort Aircraft
(1) When notified that military escort aircraft are needed in conjunction with an aircraft piracy (hijacking) emergency, the DDO, NMCC, will notify the appropriate unified command or USELEMNORAD to determine if suitable aircraft are available and forward the request to the Secretary of Defense for approval in accordance with DODD 3025.15, paragraph D.7 (reference d).
----------------------------

Suddenly, in 2001, use of military aircraft for dealing with aircraft piracy needs the prior approval of the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld). Yet previously, it was any (DoD) Component or Command that could provide an immediate response if it is an "exigent emergency".


Why 2001? Why add a bottleneck to the ability of America to have an immediate response?
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post #51 of 91
I'm not so sure if Bush really knew about the 9/11-attacks before-hand or even instructed them, but I'm pretty sure some group in his administration helped Al-Kaida in planning and executing the attacks. For both, the neo-cons and Al-Kaida, to manage the attacks in the US was useful for both agendas, though for different reasons:

a) The US finally had its excuse to reorganize its empire and absorb most of the ex-Soviet-Union-empire, and at the same time get more control of the oil in the middle-east which is most important to have influence on Europe, China and Japan.

b) Al-Kaida would finally have what it longed for, a new holy war, just like in the good old times when they fought the Soviet-Union-empire in Afghanistan.

Nightcrawler
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post #52 of 91
good points Towel and johnq BUT


....7 minutes? That's just not that long. it probably took that long to setup a podium--or even verify what they were hearing, which if they were like me sounded profoundly unbelievable.


AND


-think back to the summer of 2001, don't you guys remember at least half a dozen warnings or alerts about airport security?


The bad guys sandbagged us.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #53 of 91
What bit of difference would the seven minutes have made if Bush left that classroom earlier than he did? Seriously? If you have read the 9-11 report, then you know that there were serious problems in the entire system, the FAA, the military, everybody. Come on, they were identifying planes that weren't even there! So to say that in those seven minutes, or nine, or whatever the length was, Bush's actions would have made a difference in the overall outcome of that morning you are fooling yourselves. And what if Kerry, or Heaven forbid Gore, were in that position, as President in that classroom? What would they have done? What impact would it have had?
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post #54 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
What bit of difference would the seven minutes have made if Bush left that classroom earlier than he did? Seriously? If you have read the 9-11 report, then you know that there were serious problems in the entire system, the FAA, the military, everybody. Come on, they were identifying planes that weren't even there! So to say that in those seven minutes, or nine, or whatever the length was, Bush's actions would have made a difference in the overall outcome of that morning you are fooling yourselves. And what if Kerry, or Heaven forbid Gore, were in that position, as President in that classroom? What would they have done? What impact would it have had?

Bush is running on the "Decisive Leader" platform when sitting pale faced, book in hand, for even 1 minute shows how indecisive he is. A good leader would have gotten up and began to pow-wow with the warmongers in DC immediately not remain in a class. Bush is running on a platform whose very foundation is the death of 3000+ people on his watch. Bush is running on a platform that he always does the right thing and never makes mistakes while in the same instance his very platform is number one or two on the short list of catastrophic American presidential mistakes.

Sitting for even 1 minute as the events unfolded showed Bush was not in charge and shows he is not to be trusted with decisions IMO. His performance to date has vindicated me and mine on this point BTW.

What importance does terrorism play in this day and age? Bush is using it to swing an election. Kerry is using Bush blunders to present a case against Bush. Bush went after the wrong person beginning Mar-2003 yet Bush is still touting himself as a god among men in all things antiterrorist. Bush let the terrorist organization get away, thrive, regroup, change structure, and now they will come at us again. Bush is running on a platform of phenomenal failure while claiming success. That is why a mere 7 minutes or 16 words are important. They are important because they are sang as triumphs when the reality is the string of Bush policies are really failures which will become more apparent as time and attacks occur.

We haven't been attacked yet. We went 5 or so years between the 93 and 98 attacks so these claims of protecting the nations in times of struggle are premature to say the least. Bush is telling the American people "Vote for me because I'll do my best to protect and defend you." Yeah, just like on 911 Mr. Bush. You protected us like a scared child with your children's book squarely in your hands for seven minutes while events unfolded around us.

Ask your seven minute question again please because what transpired is relevant. Not simply because of the 420 second which passed but because of the platform Bush is running on. Decisive leaders don't hide in elementary schools while economic and military centers burn.
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post #55 of 91
Reading these posts makes it obvious why mainstream America has relegated the left irrelevant.
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #56 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Reading these posts makes it obvious why mainstream America has relegated the left irrelevant.

Interesting. I guess this is the same way that the Soviets relegated the populist irrelevant. Ah, we have become our enemy.
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post #57 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Reading these posts makes it obvious why mainstream America has relegated the left irrelevant.

Reading this post makes it obvious that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
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post #58 of 91
It will make sense on election day.
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post #59 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
It will make sense on election day.

I'm afraid that neither the date that the election falls on, the actual day of the week or the fact of an election per se will ever correct the fact that your statement was not written in any language, syntax or indeed cypher, currently known to man or beast.
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post #60 of 91
The questions aren't about whether Bush could have done so and so to change anything. He wasn't going to rip off his clothes like Superman and chase down the baddies.

The point is that there are normal procedures for the Secret Service. They don't wait 7 minutes before "whisking" the president away. They do it as soon as the situation becomes volatile. Had it truly been an unknown enemy, with unknown designs, they would have had no assurance that the school was still safe. No, not even Secret Service missile batteries or RPGs make it safe, if you call a jumbo jet's flaming wreckage falling down on a school or it's neighborhood "safe".

The only reason to sit there is because the situation is known to be safe. Why is that known to be true in that day of uncertainty?

Question: Why, when Andy Card walked in, said (presumably) another plane hit the WTC and America is under attack, why did he then immediately leave -- why would he not pause and wait for further questions or instructions from Bush?

Question: Why, when Bush is told America is under attack, why did Bush have no further questions for Card, no further instructions whatsoever? Why not get up and gather more information yourself if only from the next room? I didn't piss for a day because I stood in front of the TV for 20 hours. How could he, the president, not have been glued to the TV in concern?

But no, he must sit until Air tells him to move. Don't ask questions, let Card update him. Don't see for himself. Don't be proactive. Sit back, pretend you know less than you do.

Question: Why was Ari Fleischer holding up a legal pad with "DONT SAY ANYTHING YET" scrawled on the back in big block letters?

Question, why was the President's new limousine not used as the command center? Even if he had to come back out and give a short speech? Why rely on the one phone and broadcast TV, when the new high tech limousine has:

Quote:
Connected to the trunklid are five antennas.

Inside, there is room for six people to join the president, all on leather seating. Two sit up front, flanking a console-mounted communications center. In back, behind a glass partition, there are three rear-facing seats with cushions that can be folded up separately against the partition. The president and another passenger sit in the individually reclining rear seats.

A folding desk separates the two rear seats, and storage compartments in the interior panels contain communications equipment. The presidential motorcade includes a special rolling communications center, so the limo need not carry as much communications equipment as Air Force One.

So now America's enemies know there is a 5-30(?) minute window of opportunity to harm the president, since obviously, the standard operating procedure is keep him where he is until he's given a speech commenting on the ongoing crisis.

So, just do a terrorists event anywhere in the country, of a 9/11 scale, and instead of whisking him into his limousine, then AF-1, then a military bunker, he'll just be kept in the known, public location, not utilizing the communication equipment available to him, not acting like a president.

The GPS coordinates for the school were trivially easy to get. Flying a plane using only coordinates is standard training. No one needed to know what the school looked like. (This bullshit that the terrorists hit the Pentagon because they couldn't find the White House is just that, bullshit. They can hit anything if they know the coordinates.) How did they know a plane was not coming to the school? Ok, radar and communication with NORAD? Missile system nearby? Sure but these are useless if the plane is flying low enough and fast enough, such as with the plane that hit the Pentagon. Why risk the safety of those children at the school? Or the neighborhood?

They knew they were safe because they knew what the plot was and it's scope.

Here's an idea, let's scrap all the communications gear on AF-1 and the limousine and put it on Ebay. Bush sure as hell isn't using it. If a grade school's back office phone, and CNN is good enough, let's save the tax payers some money.
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post #61 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Question: Why was Ari Fleischer holding up a legal pad with "DON�T SAY ANYTHING YET" scrawled on the back in big block letters?

Does anyone have a link confirming this? I have not seen this info before.
post #62 of 91
that's bewildering amount of information to put together in a few minutes, johnq. There was ALOT going on at right at that moment:

Hoax?
Accident(s)?
Will they wack POTUS on the way back to AF-1? (I think airspace would have been cleared around the school -- a guess)
Will they wack AF-1 on takeoff?
Will they use Bio?
Will they use Nukes?

There's just a million things, that, maybe a younger guy would run around rattling his staff's cages to get more information, but someone with his maturity (gasp!! can I say that about Bush?) probably knew it would take a few minutes to check out what he was hearing and then a few more to perculate that throught the chain of command --- (even if you discount how much his staff was shielding him).

I think if Bush acted the way you are asking johnq, he would have to be peeled off the ceiling on at least a daily basis.


He would be constantly FREAKING out.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #63 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Ra
Does anyone have a link confirming this? I have not seen this info before.

Washington Times had an article but has been moved.

(OLD)
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021007-85016651.htm

But now they are archived and pay only.

You can search instead for:

Article ID: 200210071028060009
Published on October 7, 2002, The Washington Times
"Suddenly, a time to lead"
$2.95

Quote:
The president noticed someone moving at the back of the room. It was White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, maneuvering to catch his attention without alerting the press. Mr. Fleischer was holding up a legal pad.

Big block letters were scrawled on the cardboard backing: DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET. The remarks drafted earlier would be woefully inadequate.

I include that last sentence for accuracy but it is supposition on the part of the author. It's neither a direct quote nor a fact.

The whole article has some interesting bits...
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post #64 of 91
Nice chilling tidbit. After the second plane hit and Bush was informed (and the other 2 flights hadn't crashed yet), the children were nearing the end of their book:

Quote:
The children reached the last line: "More - to - come."

"What does that mean?" the president asked. "'More to come?'"

Nearly all the children raised their hands. Mr. Bush pointed to a girl with braided hair tied in a ribbon. Something else was going to happen, she answered.

"That's exactly right," the president said, hoping this was not some ominous prophecy.

Again, that "hoping this was not some ominous prophecy" is supposition on the part of the author. Not a quote attributed to anyone. This article is unfortunately full of little narrative paddings that detract from the factual account.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #65 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
that's bewildering amount of information to put together in a few minutes, johnq. There was ALOT going on at right at that moment:

Hoax?
Accident(s)?
Will they wack POTUS on the way back to AF-1? (I think airspace would have been cleared around the school -- a guess)
There's just a million things, that, maybe a younger guy would run around rattling his staff's cages to get more information, but someone with his maturity (gasp!! can I say that about Bush?) probably knew it would take a few minutes to check out what he was hearing and then a few more to perculate that throught the chain of command --- (even if you discount how much his staff was shielding him).

You're just desperately looking for excuses.
1) Hoax? Who would play such a hoax on the President and his staff? lol Give me a break. The absurdity of this doesn't even deserve a comment. " Plane just hit one of the WTC towers!" ---"Oh my God"---" Gotcha!"
2) Every Presidential activity has a plan of escape. I know for a FACT there had to have been a local HOSPITAL on ALERT, as is the case for every city where the President goes. National and international.

I'd love to address the rest of your post, but man, you're acting like the secret service don't plan ahead. This wasn't a case of "let's wait and see what happens". No matter what the cause, as soon as you hear a jetliner crashed into the WTC-----WHATEVER THE CAUSE-----you cancel what you're doing, specially a bloody photo-op and you get on the phone and get some answers. End of story.
post #66 of 91
Quote:
Soon concluding the first half of the lesson, Mrs. Daniels instructed: "Boys and girls, pick your reader up from under your seat."

The children bent to retrieve their textbooks. In his peripheral vision, Mr. Bush noticed someone taking advantage of this pause to approach. He swiveled slightly to the right in his chair and was surprised to discover it was Mr. Card, who had not been in the room. His chief of staff was walking right up to him in the middle of a public event.

Didn't he realize the cameras of the national press corps were capturing this breach of protocol? Sure enough, the shutters came clattering to life: Ksht, ksht, ksht.

"Open your book up to lesson 60 on page 153," Mrs. Daniels went on, oblivious to the curious little drama being played out in her classroom at 9:07 a.m.

Now Mr. Card was leaning over to whisper something. The president cocked his head to listen. The shutters went into spasms: Ksht, ksht, ksht, ksht.

The children flipped through their books for the correct page. Mr. Bush's smile had vanished. Mr. Card's drew closer, his mouth inches from the president's right ear.

The tops of their heads were practically touching. Ksht, ksht, ksht, ksht, ksht.

Mr. Bush strained to hear. This had better be good.

Tons of supposition to wade through. But is his account accurate, that Card actually waited for a decent pause in the reading to inform the president that we were under attack???

To be fair that is in the narrative part of the piece. Not a fact, at least it is not exactly visible on the video, and I've not heard any other accounts.
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #67 of 91
Quote:
""A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack."

White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card leaned over and whispered these words into President Bush's right ear at 9:07 a.m. September 11.

I looked at him, and that's all he said," Mr. Bush recalled months later, in a series of extensive interviews with The Washington Times in the Oval Office and aboard Air Force One. "Then he left. There was no time for discussion or anything."

This is bullshit.

This is Bush blaming Andy Card for leaving the room too soon?

I can buy that Card is legitimately busy ferrying info to the president. But why doesn't Bush motion for him to wait a sec?

No time for discussion? You make time.

Why is Bush and this reporter acting like Bush must be patiently glued to his seat? How much of a sockpuppet is Bush, anyway?

Card: I tell you info and don't bother waiting for your input
Fleischer: Sit there and shut up
Secret Service: We're supposed to protect you in a volatile situation, but we'll dangle you out here in public some more.
Bill Sammon: Don't dare interfere with a photo op for the national press corps.

I mean, those are my inferences based on those people's in/actions and statements.

Quote:
The old phase of the Bush presidency - 234 days of sparring on tax cuts, stem-cell research, media recounts of the Florida ballots - was suddenly, irretrievably over.

Now there was this new phase, beginning incongruously inside a classroom in Sarasota, Fla., as the president watched a teacher put her second-graders through a reading drill.

"And I can't remember anything the lady was saying from that point on," Mr. Bush recalled. "I might have been looking at her, but I wasn't hearing.

"And my mind was registering what it meant to hear 'America is under attack' and to be the commander in chief of the country at that moment."

Did you come to the conclusion that sitting and doing nothing was the proper protocol, Mr. Bush?
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #68 of 91
guys -- this is getting a little wierd

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #69 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
guys -- this is getting a little wierd

Sorry, I'm not ready to let FOX News lull me into a cozy atmosphere of patriotism and protection and progress.
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #70 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Sorry, I'm not ready to let FOX News lull me into a cozy atmosphere of patriotism and protection and progress.


I knew Ailes was in on this! That makes me cringe! -- speaking of FoxNews -- check out the smoking gun.com for the latest on the O'reilley scandal.

Unbelievable.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #71 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I knew Ailes was in on this! That makes me cringe! -- speaking of FoxNews -- check out the smoking gun.com for the latest on the O'reilley scandal.

Unbelievable.

Never heard of Ailes until you mentioned him and I Googled him.

Not really interested in O'Reilly, myself.

More interested in the Administration's role in 9/11. :shrug:
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #72 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Ra
Does anyone have a link confirming this? I have not seen this info before.

http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bb...844&mid=240615

It was in the Washington Times and others.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #73 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq

Did you come to the conclusion that sitting and doing nothing was the proper protocol, Mr. Bush? [/B]

The reason given by the White House for Bush sitting there and remaining in the school for so long was "we didn't want to frighten the kids". Now there's some bullsh1t of the most incredible variety. While America was under attack from parties then unknown, they elected to keep Bush in the school as a #1 potential target, thereby endangering the president, the entire presidential party, the teachers, and some 200 kids. "Not wanting to scare the kids".... my a$$.

Just who the hell do they think they can kid with that kind of gibberish?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #74 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
"Not wanting to scare the kids".... my a$$.

Just who the hell do they think they can kid with that kind of gibberish?


...and how many children have you raised?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #75 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
...and how many children have you raised?

Oh please don't be so patronizing. I hate it when parents come on with this BS that if you haven't got children you can't possibly understand anything about them. What a load of crap. If neither Bush or anybody else in his entourage could figure out an appropriate way to excuse himself from the situation without alarming the kids, they shouldn't be running a fucking country.

It's not like they had to say "a plane has flown into a building, thousands of people may die and we may be under attack" for chrissakes. Nobody would have blamed him for telling a white lie to down play the situation to the kids. All he had to say was "something important has come and the president needs to go and speak to some people but I'll be back soon". Kids don't attach fear and loathing to a statement like that in the way adults might. Well, they wouldn't have then. They probably would now that the Bush admin keeps telling them the world is full of terrorists just waiting to kill them all.
Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #76 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Reading these posts makes it obvious why mainstream America has relegated the left irrelevant.


Your posts are so insightful thaks once again.


Of course they're full of something.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #77 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
It will make sense on election day.


You're just upset because Kerry will cut Bush into little tiny pieces tonight. You know kind of like sushi.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #78 of 91
Anyway, dmz I'd like to hear your take on what happened that day. Even if it's just your own theories. Can you address these points:

- how do you explain the apparent complete breakdown in America's air defence? Either as a result of the "confusion" created by the war games or whatever? How can this be excused?

- as I watched this happen on TV, before the second plane hit, reporters were saying it could be an accident or it could be terrorism. They were the only two options. Why did Bush go into the class at all then? Why didn't he delay the visit until he found out what was going on?

- if you think his limo and Air Force One weren't "safe", explain how the school is safer given his visit was public knowledge? Why is a moving target less safe than a sitting duck? If the situation was unknown to them why didn't they evacuate EVERYBODY kids and teachers included?

- why did he take so long to address the American people? What do you think was going on during that time?
Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
Reply
Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #79 of 91
I forgot one question:

- you say his limo and Air Force One weren't safe. But when he finally did leave isn't that exactly where he went first to his limo and then Air Force One? Why were they unsafe one minute and suddenly safe the next? Please don't say that the SS needed time to determine their safety. The presidential limo and plane are not just left unattended so terrorists can quickly sneak in and plant a bomb.
Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #80 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
What bit of difference would the seven minutes have made if Bush left that classroom earlier than he did? Seriously? If you have read the 9-11 report, then you know that there were serious problems in the entire system, the FAA, the military, everybody. Come on, they were identifying planes that weren't even there! So to say that in those seven minutes, or nine, or whatever the length was, Bush's actions would have made a difference in the overall outcome of that morning you are fooling yourselves. And what if Kerry, or Heaven forbid Gore, were in that position, as President in that classroom? What would they have done? What impact would it have had?

7 minutes was the length of time Bush remained in the classroom following the 2nd tower hit. But the entire persidential party stayed on at the school for another 27 minutes. If a genuine terrorist attack by unknown assailants was playing itself out that morning, then that additional 34 minutes was presumably enough time to drive planes, drop bombs or whatever, on that school, putting the president and everyone there in the gravest danger. In that case, the Secret Service, had they been doing their job according to the rules, would have whisked the president out of there in seconds, just they did with Dick Cheney.

If Gore had been president, the 9-11 attacks would probably not have happened in the first place.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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