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650 Foreign Affairs Specialists Sign Open Letter to Bush

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
The letter asserts that current U.S. foreign policy harms the struggle against Islamist terrorists, pointing to a series of "blunders" by the Bush team in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. "We're advising the administration, which is already in a deep hole, to stop digging," said Professor Richard Samuels of M.I.T.

The scholars who signed the letter are from over 150 colleges and universities in 40 states, from California to Florida, Texas to Maine._ They include many of the nation's most prominent experts on world politics, including former staff members at the Pentagon, the State Department and the National Security Council, as well as six of the last seven Presidents of the American Political Science Association._ "I think it is telling that so many specialists on international relations, who rarely agree on anything, are unified in their position on the high costs that the U.S. is incurring from this war," said Professor Robert Keohane of Duke University.

http://www.sensibleforeignpolicy.net/

For the letter:
http://www.sensibleforeignpolicy.net/letter.html

This is yet another in what's becoming a long series of open letters critical of the admin, including from diplomats and economists.
post #2 of 22
giant, why don't you take a little rest. I don't even see the point of you posting something this stupid. A fucking letter from the elite Ivory Tower...who are you kidding? This would be equivalent to 650 Southern Baptists writing a letter of condemnation to John Kerry. Film at 11!
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #3 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
giant, why don't you take a little rest. I don't even see the point of you posting something this stupid. A fucking letter from the elite Ivory Tower...who are you kidding? This would be equivalent to 650 Southern Baptists writing a letter of condemnation to John Kerry. Film at 11!

I dare say learned scholars who have studied history and socioeconomic interactions and world affairs have the ability to glean a thing or two about the results of our actions while the Southern Baptist League can't even claim knowledge of the bible (being there are various versions of the bible and an infinite number of interpretations of said book from the within the Baptist League and from other Christian religions). Wow, say that three time fast.

If an economist--say a Nobel laureate--says the US Economy is in a poor state then that person has a good idea and good credentials; whereas if a Southern Baptist says the economy is doing good because he/she has faith in el presidente' who would you believe.

The key point here SDW--or should I say Mr. fingers in ears yelling "lalalalalala" as load as you can so as to avoid dealing with the reality of Bush juxtaposed with your belief in Bush--these people have good credentials and a good basis for their conclusion. History (both current and further back on the time line) has shown the "Ivory Tower Elite" to be correct while Bush's policies have been increasingly found to be wrong. It's too bad you're unwilling to take a critical look at the world and at Bush's policies otherwise I think you'd see this. You're smart but blinded IMO by the right which is tragic.

End the end we have another group of people speaking out against Bush and the loyal followers refusing to be open to the ideas presented.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #4 of 22
An Israeli think-tank has come out against the war in Iraq saying it is a distraction and a blow to the true war on terror.

The ship has been sinking for a while, all the smart rats have already abandoned.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #5 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
I dare say learned scholars who have studied history and socioeconomic interactions and world affairs have the ability to glean a thing or two about the results of our actions while the Southern Baptist League can't even claim knowledge of the bible (being there are various versions of the bible and an infinite number of interpretations of said book from the within the Baptist League and from other Christian religions). Wow, say that three time fast.

If an economist--say a Nobel laureate--says the US Economy is in a poor state then that person has a good idea and good credentials; whereas if a Southern Baptist says the economy is doing good because he/she has faith in el presidente' who would you believe.

The key point here SDW--or should I say Mr. fingers in ears yelling "lalalalalala" as load as you can so as to avoid dealing with the reality of Bush juxtaposed with your belief in Bush--these people have good credentials and a good basis for their conclusion. History (both current and further back on the time line) has shown the "Ivory Tower Elite" to be correct while Bush's policies have been increasingly found to be wrong. It's too bad you're unwilling to take a critical look at the world and at Bush's policies otherwise I think you'd see this. You're smart but blinded IMO by the right which is tragic.

End the end we have another group of people speaking out against Bush and the loyal followers refusing to be open to the ideas presented.

I think the problem in this country stems from the two party system whereby people dig in their feet on each side and cheer on their "team" because not only are each of the parties part of this ultimate "American Football Game" each party is the baby of a given voter out there. Remember their little baby never does wrong... But the baby of the "other side" is always wrong.


What people need to do is step back from a 3rd vantage point not owned by either of the two parties and speak out against wrongs carried out by either party. Of course that is like walking around Paris or NYC without your clothes on. OMG everyone is looking at me.... All this hype about my party for all these years and now it seems my baby did lie to me about this war in Iraq.... What do I do??? Admit the TRUTH which would be like walking around naked or do I stay in my comfort zone and keep up a spin and a face to mask the lies and corruption and fit right in with my groupies, my side of town, my parents, my buddies and my stubborn ego.

Face the truth or feed the ego. This is the real issue here.

Humble people can drop the pride and ego and allow themselves to face THE TRUTH
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #6 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
I think the problem in this country stems from the two party system whereby people dig in their feet on each side and cheer on their "team" because not only are each of the parties part of this ultimate "American Football Game" each party is the baby of a given voter out there. Remember their little baby never does wrong... But the baby of the "other side" is always wrong.


What people need to do is step back from a 3rd vantage point not owned by either of the two parties and speak out against wrongs carried out by either party. Of course that is like walking around Paris or NYC without your clothes on. OMG everyone is looking at me.... All this hype about my party for all these years and now it seems my baby did lie to me about this war in Iraq.... What do I do??? Admit the TRUTH which would be like walking around naked or do I stay in my comfort zone and keep up a spin and a face to mask the lies and corruption and fit right in with my groupies, my side of town, my parents, my buddies and my stubborn ego.

Face the truth or feed the ego. This is the real issue here.

Humble people can drop the pride and ego and allow themselves to face THE TRUTH

I disagree. A lot of former republican party patriots and former Bush goose steppers have jumped ship for the alternative in this go-around. People are less loyal to their parties in general than we are lead to believe. While some my be tried and true "loyalists" others--like myself--have seen the light and decided party loyalty and group affiliation are less important this election than the issues. While a 3rd party may mix things up a little I truely don't see how this would help. We had 12 parties prior to Iowa. Each of the 10 democratic candidates offered a different view. Some views were more liberal while others were more conservative. Each dem ran not as a dem but as a prospective presidental candidate. The people spoke and said they identified with Kerry for one reason or another. The point is though we had a choice not simply based on Bush v Kerry. We also have Nadar but getting him elected would be a travesty IMO. I've laid out why Nadar would be wrong in other post's so I'll not backtrack here.

We have choices. We make our decisions. Of the ten you might have liked Gephard while I like Clarke. After the first round we have another choice. Bush V Kerry V Nadar. You may like Nadar or Bush while I prefer Kerry over the other two.

We don't need a third party to save America. We need Americans to get off their asses and vote. I feel that one act is enough to effect change beyond that available by the inclusion of a third party.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
I disagree. A lot of former republican party patriots and former Bush goose steppers have jumped ship for the alternative in this go-around. People are less loyal to their parties in general than we are lead to believe. While some my be tried and true "loyalists" others--like myself--have seen the light and decided party loyalty and group affiliation are less important this election than the issues. While a 3rd party may mix things up a little I truely don't see how this would help. We had 12 parties prior to Iowa. Each of the 10 democratic candidates offered a different view. Some views were more liberal while others were more conservative. Each dem ran not as a dem but as a prospective presidental candidate. The people spoke and said they identified with Kerry for one reason or another. The point is though we had a choice not simply based on Bush v Kerry. We also have Nadar but getting him elected would be a travesty IMO. I've laid out why Nadar would be wrong in other post's so I'll not backtrack here.

We have choices. We make our decisions. Of the ten you might have liked Gephard while I like Clarke. After the first round we have another choice. Bush V Kerry V Nadar. You may like Nadar or Bush while I prefer Kerry over the other two.

We don't need a third party to save America. We need Americans to get off their asses and vote. I feel that one act is enough to effect change beyond that available by the inclusion of a third party.

I think we agree over some of this and I agree with you that not all are "party loyal". I am simply saying that if we on each side of the spectrum hold each side accountable by seriously considering the "other" candidate instead of a blank check support like so many partisans do we could then have more control over the shape and direction of each party as compared to just giving them blind support and never calling them when they do wrong. When "party loyal" partisans give a blank check of support under any and all situations the parties can do as they wish and we have to put up with the results of that. I suggest we become less partisan and sit from a 3rd vantage point to view the actions of our government. Not being owned by any party rather owning the direction of the country by the constant critical thought, public outcry at wrongs, and voice of the people owning the parties instead of the parties expecting blind sheep to rubber stamp all that they would choose to do.

It is not the number of parties that is important I only wanted to point out that it is like a football game where it is one team against one other team. Not all but many Americans have a very childish nature in this setting. Just read over AI AO PO.

I contend it is the quality of the parties no matter how many or how few. People must own their parties by becoming less partisan and by viewing the actions of the leaders of either party with greater attention, care and scrutiny.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
If an economist--say a Nobel laureate--says the US Economy is in a poor state then that person has a good idea and good credentials; whereas if a Southern Baptist says the economy is doing good because he/she has faith in el presidente' who would you believe.

You mean like this gentleman who believe the tax cuts should have been much larger?



Nobel winner, tax cuts too small

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #9 of 22
It's amazing how little respect the Republican party has for higher education, professors, experts in any given field, intellectuals, poets, philosophers.

They truly spit in their faces don't they?

Wow, what a legacy Bush has left for his party faithful.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
You mean like this gentleman who believe the tax cuts should have been much larger?



Nobel winner, tax cuts too small

Nick

His argument is fundamentally flawed: tax cuts encourage people to work. As is known the tax cut didn't go to the people who actually do work. In a situation in which employees are already overextended the tax cut cannot possibly encourage people to continue to work -- in fact, a decrease in taxes would encourage people who need to work overtime to pay bills to work less thus negatively affecting this nation's productivity. Not that people should have to work 80 hours a week to make a living.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #11 of 22
Tax cuts while we're at war...
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #12 of 22
I don't see any reason to get concerned about a letter from a bunch of liberal educators.
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
I don't see any reason to get concerned about a letter from a bunch of liberal educators.

Just curious. Did you go to college? Do you plan on going to college? Do you want your children to go to college? Have any of your family gone to college?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #14 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
A fucking letter from the elite Ivory Tower

You mean like all those phds that make up a significant chunk of the Bush admin?

And we already know that you don't have an interest in getting an education. However, taking it to the level of rabid anti-intellectualism is just so....communist.
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
His argument is fundamentally flawed: tax cuts encourage people to work. As is known the tax cut didn't go to the people who actually do work. In a situation in which employees are already overextended the tax cut cannot possibly encourage people to continue to work -- in fact, a decrease in taxes would encourage people who need to work overtime to pay bills to work less thus negatively affecting this nation's productivity. Not that people should have to work 80 hours a week to make a living.

^++

As it stands, supply side is a matter of faith that involves its proponents creating a series of excuses to explain away all of the many cases where it failed. In fact, the way they come to these excuses is through the same mechanism as any faith based research: interpreting all results from the unshakable premise that the theory is correct. No one questions that it has some long-term effect in a sterile model, but the world isn't made up of sterile models. Hense the scrambling for excuses they have to go through.
post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
It's amazing how little respect the Republican party has for higher education, professors, experts in any given field, intellectuals, poets, philosophers.

They truly spit in their faces don't they?

Wow, what a legacy Bush has left for his party faithful.

Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Tax cuts while we're at war...

Your own hypocrisy truly does astound!

When Republicans disagree with professors, or especially with professors or professionals who are say... Nobel winners, you claim they are spitting in their faces and not respecting their credentials.

This is who you just attempted to ignore.

Quote:
Professor Edward Prescott, who picked up the Nobel Prize for Economics on Monday, has said President George W. Bush's tax rate cuts should have been bigger.

How do you classify your own actions when doing the same thing?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #16 of 22
Thread Starter 
post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
His argument is fundamentally flawed: tax cuts encourage people to work. As is known the tax cut didn't go to the people who actually do work. In a situation in which employees are already overextended the tax cut cannot possibly encourage people to continue to work -- in fact, a decrease in taxes would encourage people who need to work overtime to pay bills to work less thus negatively affecting this nation's productivity. Not that people should have to work 80 hours a week to make a living.

Yep, he's that funamentally flawed economist with a nobel prize in economics who has just been discredited because of your paragraph and nothing more.

When one gets to keep the fruits of one's labors, one is encouraged to work. The opposite of that is slavery, not matter who the master is that holds the whip.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #18 of 22
Thread Starter 
Also, since we are on the subject, here's a statement by a whole lot of economists (had to be grouped by state), including 11 Nobel Laureates, opposing the tax cuts:

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/econ_stmt_2003

And let's not forgot that 2001 Nobel winner George Akerlof called bush's policies "the worst in over 200 years."
post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Your own hypocrisy truly does astound!

When Republicans disagree with professors, or especially with professors or professionals who are say... Nobel winners, you claim they are spitting in their faces and not respecting their credentials.

This is who you just attempted to ignore.



How do you classify your own actions when doing the same thing?

Nick

Come on Trumpt. You'll have to admit that Republicans have been universally dismissive of academics since Bush came into office. It's almost like you guys wear it as a badge of honor.

Intellectuals suck. Nuance is weakness. Honesty is for pussies.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #20 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Intellectuals suck. Nuance is weakness. Honesty is for pussies.

They praise ignorance. It says more about them than anything else.

Not to mention the blatant dishonesty of condemning intellectuals while simultaneously supporting intellectuals.
post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Yep, he's that funamentally flawed economist with a nobel prize in economics who has just been discredited because of your paragraph and nothing more.

When one gets to keep the fruits of one's labors, one is encouraged to work. The opposite of that is slavery, not matter who the master is that holds the whip.

Nick

Here is the thing Mr. Trumpet Player, Academics understand that if someone else points out flaws in their argument it doesn't mean that their entire existence with regard to all things they specialise in or argue about is discredited.

It would be as if if I were to call into question your argument with regard to buisness ownership practices in a suburb of Las Vegas, you would take that as an afront to all things you argue/do in buisness.

What I am arguing cannot be broken down into the simplistic slavery/work issue. When an individual or a group of individuals is working all they can work because they either want to or need to, giving them a tax break isn't going to induce them to work any more, and indeed, as I stated above, the enticement would be the opposite.

The american that has the average output of the average american citizen (the highest in the world), did not benefit from Bush's tax break. Period.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
I don't see any reason to get concerned about a letter from a bunch of liberal educators.


thats the funniest thing i've read all day
thanks for a good laugh
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