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Eurabia by 2100?

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
I saw this on the web:


From the Weekly Standard
Quote:
SELDOM HAS THE COURSE of European history been changed by a non-politician's throwaway remark in a German-language newspaper on a Wednesday in the dead of the summer doldrums. But on July 28, Princeton historian Bernard Lewis told the conservative Hamburg-based daily Die Welt that Europe would be Islamic by the end of this century "at the very latest," and continental politics has not been the same since.



Are any of you Europeans seeing signs of this? Does this even matter?

Why?

Why not?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #2 of 16
Human culture evolves. People are capable of making their own choices.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #3 of 16
I didn't click the link, but i'm assuming that this is about Turkey starting the procedure to join the EU (in 10-15yrs). There is some fear that this will be the start of the EU expanding into Asia, starting with Isreal and continuing with any country that switches to a democratic/secular regime. This, of course, is utter b.s. imnsho but it is the picture some are trying to paint to stop Turkey from entering the EU.

(for the record, i agree there are many problems with Turkey joining the EU, we just added 10 more countries, others are looking into it and at the same time we're having huge problems keeping everything and everybody in check. I'm in favor of a Europe of two or three speeds with the core 15 or so countries taking radical steps towards more Europe as quickly as possible, before all that expanding waters down the significance of the whole thing)

Edit: just to make sure - no i don't think europe will be islamic in 100yrs and no this isn't an issue here.
It's Better To Be Hated For What You Are Than To Be Loved For What You Are Not
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It's Better To Be Hated For What You Are Than To Be Loved For What You Are Not
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post #4 of 16
I didn't click the link either, I'm too tired at the moment, sorry.

There has been a growth of immigrants from muslim countries, especially in France with its strong ties to Algeria (sp?). a few Europeans converted to Islam as well, but no significant numbers. This happens in the US as well, I suppose.

Here in Switzerland the maybe 2 or 3 % of the population may be muslim, but there are no signs of "islamification" of the society. Therefore, I don't see a problem here...

Don't forget: a few hundred years ago, America was 100% Native American, that has changed as well.
post #5 of 16
I am scared of Islam, I don't want to live in an Islamic country, but my knowledge of Islam is virtually nil - other than knowing that Segovius is goint to be real hungry right now

Am I scared because I am ignorant of Islam? Probably, I do intend not to be ignorant when time allows. I worry that Islam is taking over, are my fears justified? or am I being scared by the media?

I worry when the PC politicians tell us that Islam is peaceful, but I wonder if they will only be peaceful until they reach a critical mass. Are these fears justified? or am I being scared by my ignorance or the media?

I see Muslims on TV, they look different from me, they wear wierd clothes, talk funny, pray wierdly and worship a God I do not believe in. I'm scared by this, but am I just ignorant?

Why is Islam the fastest growing religion today? Are they mostly uneducated, primitive, idealogic sheep or am I ignorant?

I don't know if Islam is a threat or not, but I know ignorance is one of the worst crimes against humanity,
post #6 of 16
Each and every step must be evaluated by its own. Its a cliche but if you told a farmer 200 years ago that his water mill was the first step into a evolution that now allow us to penetrate the sky thus entering the territory of god he would smash it right away. The past doesn´t understand the future.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #7 of 16
Well, the first thing I want to say is Bernard Lewis

If you even mention him in my Phd department it's an automatic downgrading ! It's only half a joke - he is really not a serious scholar. Kind of to Islamic studies what David Irving is to Judaic.

Anyway, he plays on the the fears nicely. DMZ probably reads him. But to some serious points:

There are people who want to control your mind - one of their weapons is to reduce everything to good/bad, black/white simplistic notions of everything.

Once you buy into this you can be completely in binary fashion like a computer.

So the first thing is: think and find out for yourself. Submit everything to critical reason and realise there are people trying to control your mind:

If a politician uses this technique he is one of them.
If the local Mullah uses this technique he is one of them.
If a poster here uses this technique he is one of them.
If a newspaper uses this technique....and so on.

So, in the present instance we have a situation where in Islam we have some high-profile maniacs who use violence and some people who say that Islam is peaceful and that the two are opposed.

Obviously only one of these can be right and this is something that could be investigated BUT the people who want to control your thinking don't accept this logical distinction.

They say (Lewis) 'Europe will be Islamic'. Well which type ? Radical or peaceful ? Doesn't matter - they are black/white and are not making the distinction.

So the question really isn't about Islamicisation - after all, would millions of Christians, Jews, atheists and Sikhs convert (yes, I know the subtext is they will be killed or coerced - but this is Lewis neurosis coming through), despite the fact it is forbidden in the Qur'an to convert such people who are regarded as 'believers' - the question is: do you want to have your opinions formed by anyone other than yourself - Lewis here just did a load of people's thinking for them. Trust me - that's not good, whether it's Lewis, OBL or the Pope. Think for yourself.

And if you don't know something you are interested in - ask someone who does, test whether they are binary, avoid being binary yourself and submit the results to your critical faculties.

That's one of the things I learned from Islam.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #8 of 16
Eurabia, refear to an ethnicity : arab and not a religion. The author assume that there will be more arabic people than caucasian ones.
I don't think it will be the case, the birth rate ratio of immigrate tend to slow down with the next generations.
post #9 of 16
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Eurabia, refear to an ethnicity : arab and not a religion. The author assume that there will be more arabic people than caucasian ones.
I don't think it will be the case, the birth rate ratio of immigrate tend to slow down with the next generations.

Eurabia as a term is merely a representation of the spin and bias of the thread starter.

The quote that he presses into service from Lewis does not use this nonsensical term and refers instead to 'Europe being Islamic'.

The issue is therefore as I described it above: what does 'Islamic' mean in reality ? We know what Lewis and the poster mean by it but the sensible question surely must be 'how far does this view conform to reality' if at all.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #10 of 16
Here is a great quote from the article :

Quote:
Bolkestein was thus addressing a continent-wide discomfiture. His speech was long. It was no rant. Alluding to the E.U.'s aspiration to become a multinational state, he drew listeners' attention to the fate of the most recent European power with that aspiration, the Austro-Hungarian empire just over a century ago. Austrians were culturally confident (Liszt, Richard Strauss, Brahms, Mahler, and Wagner were working in Vienna). They were prosperous and proud. The problem was that there were only 8 million of them, and expanding their country's frontiers brought them face to face with an energetic pan-Slavic movement. Once the Empire absorbed 20 million Slavs, it faced difficult compromises between allowing the new subjects to rule themselves and preserving its own culture. Rather like the E.U., the Empire was past the point of no return before it realized it was going anywhere in particular.

Funny, comparison, between an empire and EU
Why not a comparison between the fall of the roman empire and EU ?

Bolkestein seem to forgot one very important point : the right of people of being free of governing themselves. Such right did not existed in an empire. It exist in a union. Turkey ask to enter in the union since 50 years, she is not forced to enter in.
The question of turkey is related to it's constitution and economy. Religion should have nothing to do, in europeans countries who claim to be laic (laic : countrie with no official religion, where all religions have the right to exist and be worshipped).
post #11 of 16
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Here is a great quote from the article :



Funny, comparison, between an empire and EU
Why not a comparison between the fall of the roman empire and EU ?

Bolkestein seem to forgot one very important point : the right of people of being free of governing themselves. Such right did not existed in an empire. It exist in a union. Turkey ask to enter in the union since 50 years, she is not forced to enter in.
The question of turkey is related to it's constitution and economy. Religion should have nothing to do, in europeans countries who claim to be laic (laic : countrie with no official religion, where all religions have the right to exist and be worshipped).

Great quote !

Really, what a ridiculous article - Europhobic and Islamophobic at the same time -they're evolving in their own special way !
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #12 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Eurabia as a term is merely a representation of the spin and bias of the thread starter.

Actually, the thread starter just wanted to know what was actually happening in Europe.

The thread starter intentionally did not bring up:
Quote:
Sweden's third-largest city, Malmø, according to the Swedish Aftonbladet, has become an outpost of the Middle East in Scandinavia: "The police now publicly admit what many Scandinavians have known for a long time: They no longer control the situation in the nations's third largest city. It is effectively ruled by violent gangs of Muslim immigrants. Some of the Muslims have lived in the area of Rosengård, Malmø, for twenty years, and still don't know how to read or write Swedish. Ambulance personnel are attacked by stones or weapons, and refuse to help anybody in the area without police escort. The immigrants also spit at them when they come to help. Recently, an Albanian youth was stabbed by an Arab, and was left bleeding to death on the ground while the ambulance waited for the police to arrive. The police themselves hesitate to enter parts of their own city unless they have several patrols, and need to have guards to watch their cars, otherwise they will be vandalized."

...because the thread starter thought it would be inflamatory.

I really did get some very constructive comments -- this forum just wasn't possible ten years ago -- the citizens of the world are finally actually talking to each other -- No filter. All I want is the truth.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Actually, the thread starter just wanted to know what was actually happening in Europe.

The thread starter intentionally did not bring up:

...because the thread starter thought it would be inflamatory.

I really did get some very constructive comments -- this forum just wasn't possible ten years ago -- the citizens of the world are finally actually talking to each other -- No filter. All I want is the truth.

omg - look at that flying pig......sorry, what were you saying ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #14 of 16
The truth?

OK, here it is: just chill out, relax, don't be an afraid American or anything because it's *bollocks*.

It's bollocks because since the fall of the European empires there has been mass immigration from all over the world and Europe remains Europe. You, alas, are a victim of a very powerful prevailing spin. You come from a country that is ALWAYS shitting itself about something. At the moment it's Islam.

And if some people in some countries behave like religious arseholes from time to time, well, the same is true of Christians and Jews.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/487887.html

The above does not mean that Judaism is an evil religion any more then what you quote (and were dying to quote) means Islam is an evil religion; at least, no more evil then the rest of our organised religions.
meh
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meh
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post #15 of 16
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
The truth?

OK, here it is: just chill out, relax, don't be an afraid American or anything because it's *bollocks*.

It's bollocks because since the fall of the European empires there has been mass immigration from all over the world and Europe remains Europe. You, alas, are a victim of a very powerful prevailing spin. You come from a country that is ALWAYS shitting itself about something. At the moment it's Islam.

And if some people in some countries behave like religious arseholes from time to time, well, the same is true of Christians and Jews.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/487887.html

The above does not mean that Judaism is an evil religion any more then what you quote (and were dying to quote) means Islam is an evil religion; at least, no more evil then the rest of our organised religions.

I used to think Brave New World was a better book than 1984. But now I see different. The fact is that right now, right here, we're constantly creating enemies just to have them. Control the population's loyalty through fear and pride.

Republicans: "We need a new Pearl Harbor!"

Yeah. Go team.

WHAT WE NEED IS PEACE YOU FUCKWITS.
post #16 of 16
We need peace.

And the world, but yes, mainly America, needs to be brave not scared and cowardly.
meh
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meh
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