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Fear Fear Fear Fear Fear - Page 2

post #41 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Great post jimmac! Bush is using fear! Don't even try to argue! Everytime he wants a distraction he issues an alert! I can't prove that, but I'll say it anyway! With an exclamation point! AND I'LL USE CAPS BECAUSE BUSH IS WAY OUT OF HAND. People are afraid! They won't be with Kerry!

Oh master of misinformation! Bush is soooooooo transparent on this issue. But you don't think so. That's how I know I'm dead on here.


We really don't know what we'll get with Kerry. But we do know with Bush and anything has got to better than a president who uses Orwellian tactics on his own people.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #42 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
..and I'd like to add that becoming a global superpower was an accident.


Yes, indeed it was a lucky accident, if you are religiously inclined, like me, you could call it fate.

Let's recapitulate a bit: Europeans left Europe and went to the US, at the beginning religiously prosecuted christian sects. Later also people that endured economic hardships that followed promise of european capital that wanted to invest in the new country.

Off course where the capital is going the army to protect it can't be far away. The British and to a much smaller degree French armies followed and secured the new colonies against each other and also against the native population. European education, european people, european armies and european capital were the foundation of the newly created country. The country was a colony under the British queen. France was surely not amused and had to leave northway where they founded another country..

Not long after, there broke a conflict out between Britain and the settlers in america. The settlers refused to pay taxes to Britain, because they were not represented in the british parliament. There was a british law that basically said, "no representation, no tax".

If Britain had decided then to make room for representation of the settlers in british parliament, the independence-war wouldn't have occured. Regardless, Britain send more troops to the colony, in order to force the payment of taxes. It worked, a ship full with american products mainly tea, was meant to be a form of tax-payment, but american settlers disguised as native indians entered the ship at night and threw out all the tea there was into the sea.
Shortly therafter the independence-war broke out and the american settlers would have surely lost it, when there was not a nice country that sympathised with the settlers, called France, that supported the settlers with weapons and ammunition and even led a war against Britain elsewhere to stretch Britain's ressources. Were it not for France, the settlers would have lost.

Ok, the US was founded on the area previously known as british colonies. Not much later the US turned into an empire, as it started to expand its frontier to west while killing indians. Much later it started a war with Mexiko and got from it a few states, like Texas (I'm not sure about that one) and California.

The US-empire stretched then from one sea to the other, and soon also absorbed a few strategic islands...
What motivated all this imperialistic expansion and wars was the religiously motivated theory that the americans were the chosen people and that God wants from the chosen people to establish a New Israel in the new world, and the successful genocide on the indians and every won expansion ensured them that they have God on their side, which again motivated more expansion, etc..

Soon thereafter the american expansion met with the Spanish empire in southamerica, and a conflict broke out that culminated in a USvs.Spain-war, and interestingly enough Britain helped the US defeat Spain, and Spain had to withdraw from southamerica.

From then on Britain protected with its fleet the US from any european intervention be it spanish or french intervention. The Monroe-doctrin, that prohibited any european intervention in the americas and that basically declared that the americas were the playground of the US, was ironically secured military by the british fleet.

While Europe engaged in multiple wars and in colonialism in Africa and Asia and in military conflicts between the different empires, the british, french, spanish, ottomanic empires and also Germany, the US basically had a century of peace secured by the british fleet and with undeveloped americas to play empire.

So much peace and play until a civil-war broke out between north- and south-USA. It was a war mainly because of differences between the sort of economy the US should have. The south was agriculture-oriented, with slaves and big farms, while the north was more industry-oriented. The sort of economy that should be supported also brought out differences in the structure of the states and the organization of power. The industry in the north needed more workers, and there was a potential in the south that had to be freed from slavery to work in the industries of the north.

Again thanks to the british fleet the US had the opportunity to fight the civilwar without any intervention from european mights.

The north won, industrialisation continued, the slaves were freed and had the choice to work in the industry or in farms, but this time get paid for it, to marry when they want, to get its children educated, to move freely in the country, etc...

Meanwhile the european countries were hopelessly active in open and covert conflicts until it culminated in ww1.

From the end of the civil war in the US up to ww1, the US steadily became an economic might, thanks to its agriculture, the vast ressources in the vast and nearly untouched new world, and also its newly intensified industrialisation. It went so far that the european warriors had to burrow lots of money from the neutral US. George Washington's doctrin warned the US to never make any alliances with the europeans and to strictly keep out from their conflicts.

That neutrality and the protection by the british fleet of the Monroe-doctrin, and the ressources of a new discovered country allowed the US to become the financial might that financed all ww1-parties, at least for half the war.

From that point to today's existence of an american empire of global measure is widely known.

If you look carefully at history you will see that it is full of coincidences, accidents, and lucky decisions that led to the US of becoming a global empire.

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #43 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by Nightcrawler
Let's recapitulate a bit: Europeans left Europe and went to the US, at the beginning religiously prosecuted christian sects. Later also people that endured economic hardships that followed promise of european capital that wanted to invest in the new country.


If you look carefully at history you will see that it is full of coincidences, accidents, and lucky decisions that led to the US of becoming a global empire.

Nightcrawler


There's a lot of conventional wisdom there, some of it is not as accurate as it could be. People somehow forget that England emptied it Jails into America, (and don't forget the numbers of people who came over looking for a fast buck). These are both considerable factors.

(Everyone is religious) I am a Christian, and I think you have to ignore the number of providential events that allowed America to become a superpower, rather than search for them. But then that is true of all countries in their rising and falling.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #44 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Oh master of misinformation! Bush is soooooooo transparent on this issue. But you don't think so. That's how I know I'm dead on here.


We really don't know what we'll get with Kerry. But we do know with Bush and anything has got to better than a president who uses Orwellian tactics on his own people.

You are a true believer jimmac.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #45 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I think you have to ignore the number of providential events that allowed America to become a superpower, rather than search for them. But then that is true of all countries in their rising and falling.

Do you count the genocide of the native Americans, permitting the settlers access to a rich and fertile territority as providential?

Just asking.
meh
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meh
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post #46 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Do you count the genocide of the native Americans, permitting the settlers access to a rich and fertile territority as providential?

Just asking.


Probably the best example is a storm at sea that wiped out English reinfocments during the American rebellion.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #47 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Probably the best example is a storm at sea that wiped out English reinfocments during the American rebellion.

How about Peter Inuit swindling the Amerindians out of Manhattan ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #48 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
How about Peter Inuit swindling the Amerindians out of Manhattan ?

Oops, I forgot about the disruption of the Amerian Indian's Utopia.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #49 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Oops, I forgot about the disruption of the Amerian Indian's Utopia.

Don't worry - they were just savages. No problem.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #50 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Don't worry - they were just savages. No problem.

Watch who you're calling savages!


( ....those are my ancestors. BTW)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #51 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
You are a true believer jimmac.


IN THE TRUTH!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #52 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Oops, I forgot about the disruption of the Amerian Indian's Utopia.

Genocide and dispossesion is a-OK with you then? Just part of your manifest destiny?

"Christian."
meh
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meh
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post #53 of 225
Ouch, Herald, take it easy. I have lineage on both sides of this.


Let's recap:
Quote:
Oops, I forgot about the disruption of the Amerian Indian's Utopia.


If it's not too difficult, I would take from there and not anywhere else.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #54 of 225
Anybody who sees providence behind history must also recognize that history is basically a large pile of bleeding slaughtered bodies.

They also should wake their asses up and realize that their fantasy land (their vision of their country in G-d/history) is NOT special: if all is vanity as Ecclesiastese says, then their special place in the universe is like that of a blob of yeast.

The only thing that matters is love and compassion, and one kind of love and compassion being the kind that comes from seeing that we all have to share the same level of significance in the world no matter what 'G-d loved' country we come from.

Besides, there is a history of sunken battle fleets -sunk at sea by storms- that have change the course of Empires and nations and history for Millenia, off hand I can think of several: the Persians against the Greeks, the Carthaginians against the Romans -several times over and vice-a-versa too, and the Mongols while invading Japan . . .

we think entirely too much about our specialness in world history, Christians who wantto be special in history should realize that that is the realm of 'Legion' and that they are just measly sinners and are about as special as a turd . . . . that way they may learn humility . . . . as well as keep themselves from committing needless ideological tragedies in the name of their grand 'Vision of specialness'.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #55 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
we think entirely too much about our specialness in world history, Christians who wantto be special in history should realize that that is the realm of 'Legion' and that they are just measly sinners and are about as special as a turd . . . . that way they may learn humility . . . . as well as keep themselves from committing needless ideological tragedies in the name of their grand 'Vision of specialness'.


(That would be turds special enough to die for, pfflam.)


I wouldn't assume that all Christians have a deficient study of history.


Edit:

James Russell Lowell KICKS ASS:

The Present Crisis

WHEN a deed is done for Freedom, through the broad earth's aching breast
Runs a thrill of joy prophetic, trembling on from east to west,
And the slave, where'er he cowers, feels the soul within him climb
To the awful verge of manhood, as the energy sublime
Of a century bursts full-blossomed on the thorny stem of Time.

Through the walls of hut and palace shoots the instantaneous throe,
When the travail of the Ages wrings earth's systems to and fro;
At the birth of each new Era, with a recognizing start,
Nation wildly looks at nation, standing with mute lips apart,
And glad Truth's yet mightier man-child leaps beneath the Future's heart.


...16 stanzas follow, all as good or better.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #56 of 225
Of course Bush is playing "fear of terrorism" card. Without a major incident like 9-11, his administration was dead in the water. 9-11 was the PNAC's requirement for a "New Pearl Harbor", and it transformed a stalled administration with no apparent direction into a gung-ho empire building outfit almost overnight. Suddenly we were at war in Afghanistan, the pre-written Patriot Act was going through Congress without even being read, The Dept. of Homeland Security was being formed, as was the TSA, the color coded terror alert system, the "no-fly" lists, and other paranoid or Constitution-busting measures....then the Iraq war.

What better than an incident like 9-11, played out step by step, frame by ugly frame on national and global television, to set the scene for what the PNAC, many of whom are senior Bush admin officials, had been calling for since 1995? Without 9-11, Bush would have had nothing to divert the public's attention from the standard domestic issues, which were not going well with a recession was in full swing, and intractible foreign situations like Israel and Palestine.

Just imagine Bush today without 9-11. The US public would never had swallowed any of the actions and policies that happened as a result (of 9-11), absolutely not a solitary chance. Lets just face it, Bush is the One Issue President: September the Eleventh. If they had counted everybody's votes in Florida in November 2000, Gore had ended up in the White House, the architects of 9-11 would not have had the access to carry out the attacks, and Osama bin Laden would not have "rogue "superstar" status, but instead a relatively anonymous but pesky terrorist whose organization carries out a few random bombings here and there in the middle east, as ETA does in Spain or the FARC in Colombia.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #57 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Ouch, Herald, take it easy. I have lineage on both sides of this.

Your position has been: "God has been / is on our side; only providence can explain much that has contributed to the position of the USA."

In the process, you not only ignore acts of genocide and disposession but refer to them with flippancy ('the American Indian utopia') even though these acts were fundamental to the current position of the USA. This also includes slavery.

God's on the side of colonisers, murderers and slavers is he?

Never.

Forget your storms at sea. The land of America became American by genocide and was built by slaves. The physical land and the economic power are the two things that *really* made the place and you just laugh them off. Your relatives would disown you.

Edit: I'm not even saying "America is a bad place" because it's historically as bad as anywhere else. But right now it's got this fundamentalist inability to see ANY bad and it thinks God is on its side. Such vanity, such hubris, so arrogant, so dangerous for the whole world.
meh
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meh
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post #58 of 225
Quote:
The Bush administration is suppressing a CIA report on 9/11 until after the election, and this one names names. Although the report by the inspector general's office of the CIA was completed in June, it has not been made available to the congressional intelligence committees that mandated the study almost two years ago.

LA Times

Hmm...
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #59 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
IN THE TRUTH!

That's pretty funny, since you're son ignorant of the political reality, no matter whom you support. That reality is this: Most indicators favor a Bush victory right now, just like most indicators in 1992 favored the defeat of his father...and just like most indicators favored Clinton's reelection. Kerry could still win by pulling one out in Ohio, or even Florida. Don't get me wrong, it's quite possible given how tight things are.

Let me put it this way: If you had to bet $10,000 on the election, whom would you put it on? You'd play the odds if you were smart, and the odds favor Bush at this time. Anyone saying otherwise cannot be taken seriously.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #60 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
That's pretty funny, since you're son ignorant of the political reality, no matter whom you support. That reality is this: Most indicators favor a Bush victory right now, just like most indicators in 1992 favored the defeat of his father...and just like most indicators favored Clinton's reelection. Kerry could still win by pulling one out in Ohio, or even Florida. Don't get me wrong, it's quite possible given how tight things are.

Let me put it this way: If you had to bet $10,000 on the election, whom would you put it on? You'd play the odds if you were smart, and the odds favor Bush at this time. Anyone saying otherwise cannot be taken seriously.

Bush is going to win, absolutely. The Republicans are better at fighting elections and the Democrats haven't got the guts to make the accusations they could deservedly make. Bush is ahead in the polls because more people intend to vote for him; this will make him the winner of the election.

Like I say, we're fucked.
post #61 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Bush is going to win, absolutely. The Republicans are better at fighting elections and the Democrats haven't got the guts to make the accusations they could deservedly make. Bush is ahead in the polls because more people intend to vote for him; this will make him the winner of the election.

Like I say, we're fucked.

Well as much as we disagree on probably....everything, I appreciate your honesty in ackowledging the political reality. That is really all I'm asking jimmac to do.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #62 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Bush is going to win, absolutely. The Republicans are better at fighting elections and the Democrats haven't got the guts to make the accusations they could deservedly make. Bush is ahead in the polls because more people intend to vote for him; this will make him the winner of the election.

Like I say, we're fucked.


How many damaging anti-Bush books came out over the last year? How many recent movies can I rent featuring Bush as the devil incarnate?


I don't think anymore accusations are really possible.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #63 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
God's on the side of colonisers, murderers and slavers is he?


Look, you and I obviously aren't connecting here -- and I'm not up for vitriol with my coffee.

I'm done with this discussion.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #64 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
How many damaging anti-Bush books came out over the last year? How many recent movies can I rent featuring Bush as the devil incarnate?

I don't anymore accusations are really possible.

I take it you're referring to all those insiders' accounts of the run-up to the Iraq war by those 'damaging anti-Bush books'.

They were factual. Why hasn't the Democratic candidate said anything?

And. Kerry hasn't spoken about Abu Ghraib or Donald Rumsfeld's direct role in implementing policy that's led to human rights abuses, nor torture at Guantanamo Bay.

Hells bell's, America is holding people without trial and torturing them.

Now there's a sentence worth repeating. Your country is holding people without trial and torturing them. Kerry hasn't said shit. America's doing this, right now, 100km off the coast of Florida.

Really. What a terrible bunch of sell-outs you right wing Americans are.
post #65 of 225
I thought SCOTUS just ruled on the Gitmo situation.


At any rate, all of these things are on the table for the public to see, Kerry soundbites or not. Every single accusation has been run on 60 minutes -- Hewitt et al have made sure that all of the dirt got good, stready play -- in the end the public isn't concerned about any of this.


Why email your Senator when you can fire up a fat spleeb and watch Paris Hilton screwing? No contest, duuuuuuuude.

Howard Stern gets people' attention, 'Desparate Houswives' gets people's attention, the Boston Red Sox probably got more focused time and attention last night than congress got in citizen participation for the last ten years. I'll bet the UK is the same way.

But what a comeback --- how will Ruben Sierra live with himself?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #66 of 225
What's a 'spleeb'?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #67 of 225
oops.

post #68 of 225
'Spliff'.

It's 'spliff'.

Must dash- have to watch Paris Hilton administering a blow-job in quicktime. Thank heavens for Acquisition.
post #69 of 225
Paris Hilton is the perfect example of everything that is wrong with our culture: she inhabits a world of fantasy, a collectuive fantasy where she deserves the benefits of everything that she owns in her inherent goodness, she mocks the world of others through deliberate stupidity, condescending and incomporehending even the possibilty of lives that care not a whit about her world . . . her wealth, of course, is inhereted, like the royalty of old, and she wears it like a gift from G-d, like it is proof of elite status . . .
she is the laughing stock of the world and yet at the same time this is part and parcel of her image: she mocks us by having us care enough about her to laugh at her, she is the baffoon of popular consciousness, the dumb blonde that every stupid man thinks is only worth a fuuck, and she foists these qualities onto herself because no matter what the little people think she knows that she has the inherent gift of being better . . . the proof is in the bank . .

and even if she doesn't think any of this, it is still there, it is part of the symbol that she is in the popular iconography: she is the symbol of the elite that slums in our level, providing both an outlet for our basest hatreds and still, at the same time, providing a fantasy of the world that we are not 'good enough (blessed with money enough) to touch.


[Of course I knew it was supposed to be 'spliff' . . . ]
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #70 of 225
Just got this thru email and thought I'd share:

Quote:
Your Heinz Bottles Don't Lie - Check your Heinz bottles
>
> I checked and my bottle of Heinz catsup says "Product of Canada"
>
> Guess I'll be checking out all the Heinz products at the store!
> Shortly after reading the following e-mail content, I happened to look
> at the label of a jar of Heinz sandwich slice pickles. Yep...."Made in
> Mexico."
>
> Check some of your Heinz products. Sen. John Kerry keeps talking about
> U.S. corporations leaving this country and setting up shop in foreign
> countries, taking thousands of jobs with them. He is right, because that has
> happened.
> However, he is trying to blame it on George W. Bush. As far as I know,
> Bush has not moved one factory out of this country because he is not the
> owner of a single factory. That cannot be said about Kerry and his wife,
> Teresa Heinz-Kerry. According to the Wall Street Journal, the Kerrys own 32
> factories in Europe and 18 in Asia and the Pacific.
>
> In addition, their company, the Heinz Company, leases four factories in
> Europe and four in Asia. Also, they own 27 factories in North America,
> someof which are in Mexico and the Caribbean. I wonder how many hundreds of
> American workers lost their jobs when their
> plants relocated in foreign countries? I also wonder if the workers in
> Mexico and Asia are paid the same wages and
> benefits as workers in the United States. Of course they're not.
> However, Kerry demands that other companies that relocate should pay
> the same benefits they did in the U.S. Why does he not demand this of
> the Heinz Company, since he is married to the owner?
> If Kerry is elected, will he and his wife close all those foreign
> factories and bring all those jobs back to America? Of course they won't.
> They're making millions off that cheap labor. The labels don't lie,
> Does Kerry?
>
15" MacBook C2D 2.33Ghz, ATI 1600 258MB, 120GB HD 5400, 2GB RAM, SuperDrive

17" iMac G5
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15" MacBook C2D 2.33Ghz, ATI 1600 258MB, 120GB HD 5400, 2GB RAM, SuperDrive

17" iMac G5
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post #71 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by Aftershock
Just got this thru email and thought I'd share:

They don't own the company. She has like a 4% stake in it. The rest is inherited money. She makes no managerial decisions whatsoever.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #72 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by Aftershock
Just got this thru email and thought I'd share:

Oh look. They're doing to Mrs Kerry what they did to Mrs Clinton. Quelle surprise.
post #73 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
I take it you're referring to all those insiders' accounts of the run-up to the Iraq war by those 'damaging anti-Bush books'.

They were factual. Why hasn't the Democratic candidate said anything?

And. Kerry hasn't spoken about Abu Ghraib or Donald Rumsfeld's direct role in implementing policy that's led to human rights abuses, nor torture at Guantanamo Bay.

Hells bell's, America is holding people without trial and torturing them.

Now there's a sentence worth repeating. Your country is holding people without trial and torturing them. Kerry hasn't said shit. America's doing this, right now, 100km off the coast of Florida.

Really. What a terrible bunch of sell-outs you right wing Americans are.


Back to disagreeing. Why is that the anti-Bush books by "insiders" are all FACTUAL, while any anti-Kerry piece is put forth by lying scum?

As far as holding non-US citizens accused of being terrorists without a trial, I say bravo. As far as treating them roughly if needed, even better. Torture? Well I'll draw the line there. WTF do you want to do though? Put them in the People's Court?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #74 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
As far as holding non-US citizens accused of being terrorists without a trial, I say bravo. As far as treating them roughly if needed, even better. Torture? Well I'll draw the line there. WTF do you want to do though? Put them in the People's Court?

I doubt you draw the line at torture, but it's good to be politically correct isn't it.

I pray to my God, that you get arrested because of the patriot act, thrown away, no trial, beaten, tortured, all because you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Forget the 20 point bold. Get it tattoed on your forehead
post #75 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Let me put it this way: If you had to bet $10,000 on the election, whom would you put it on? You'd play the odds if you were smart, and the odds favor Bush at this time. Anyone saying otherwise cannot be taken seriously.

I wouldn't wager $10000 even on odds as good as 2:1 or 3:1, and I certainly don't think a Kerry victory is that strong a possibility.

I have already wagered, in a sense, a few hundred dollars worth of campaign contributions and some of my time spent out on the ground canvassing for Kerry. (New Hampshire's 4 electoral votes, few as the are, would have won Gore the presidency in the last election. In this election, NH is leaning Kerry at the moment, which makes me feel more like I can personally make a difference.)

If I were hypothetically forced to wager that $10000? I'd honestly go with Kerry. I'm not saying that I don't fret and worry about Bush winning, and I'm certainly not comfortable with how close things are -- even if Kerry win's, I think it's a sad thing that Bush has so much support given the failure that is his presidency.

You say that typical historical indicators and predictors favor Bush, but overall, I don't see that as true. What has Bush got on his side? Incumbency, for one thing. Being a "wartime president" for another. But his incumbency comes with many liabilities, and given that a lot of people don't support the war in Iraq, and even for those who do, most people's daily lives go on with no particular "we're in a war" feeling in the air, I don't see "wartime president" as being so strong a predictor for Bush as it might otherwise be.

The vague "war on terror", with no clear enemies, with no way to clearly measure success, isn't quite the same as any other historical precedent of wartime. Somehow, quite undeservedly in my opinion, Bush has a majority of Americans believing that his handling of the WOT is a strength of his.

If there is some sort of terrorist strike between now and Nov. 2, I think Bush will win easily. But consider the bizarre irrationality of that reaction. I know deep down that, yes, that is how people would probably react, but why? The Bushies try to scare voters with the idea that if Kerry wins the terrorists will strike, yet for some reason if Bush fails to protect us in the very same way, voters will rush to the man who failed to protect them. Rove and Co. have clearly done a good job of creating an image of strength that has no basis whatsoever in rational thought.

Those are Bush's strengths. But history is against Bush in many ways. His approval rating is not at all strong for an incumbent seeking re-election. The performance of the stock market bodes ill for Bush, as do job creation figures and satisfaction (in this case dissatisfaction) with the economy. In a close race like this, undecided voters typically break toward the challenger at the last minute since their indecision often reflects a vague desire for change and displeasure with the status quo.

High voter turnout generally favors Democrats over Republicans, and indications are good that voter turnout is going to be up quite a bit this election. I believe that lingering anger over the 2000 election, coupled by Bush's very polarizing presidency, will energize Democrats much more than Republicans. I believe Bush has more effectively stirred up his opposition to fight against him than his base to support him. A number of strong conservatives have been coming out to either support Kerry, or simply to not support Bush, because they feel Bush has, among other things, been fiscally irresponsible and that his administration lacks transparency and accountability.

Add on top of this Pat Robertson's recent remark about Bush and Iraq, and, while I know Roberston doesn't at all represent all conservative Christians in the US, you have to wonder, no matter how reliable this block of votes is, if it's even as strong as in 2000.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #76 of 225
IIRC, Hienz ownership is predominantly a conservative lot . . .. she has very little, if nothing to do with the Company . . . her ex-husband was a Republican . . .

but clearly as the day is sunlit, this moron who posted this is a troll . . . .


I wonder how much damage to Pittsburgh and the Heinz Corporation (and its workers) will occur because idiots are now buying other brands as a form of 'support' for Bush?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #77 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
As far as holding non-US citizens accused of being terrorists without a trial, I say bravo. As far as treating them roughly if needed, even better. Torture? Well I'll draw the line there.

So you can be beaten up for being accused of something, and you say 'bravo.'

An accusation is enough to get you beaten up.

The terrorists have won. You've swapped a belief in high principles for the logic the terrorists use. And its cowardly.

Not brave enough to say, "I'm keeping my liberty. I'm going to come after you with all I have, but you're never changing my country, and its belief in fundamental human rights. We're never going to be as bad as you."

Bush and the neos are cowards, and so are you.

But hey, why stop at accusation of terror? How about accusation of supporting terror? How about associating with terrorists? How about attending a rally where someone accused of terrorist activity was speaking? How about being anti War on Terror?
meh
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meh
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post #78 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
So you can be beaten up for being accused of something, and you say 'bravo.'

An accusation is enough to get you beaten up.

The terrorists have won. You've swapped a belief in high principles for the logic the terrorists use. And its cowardly.

Not brave enough to say, "I'm keeping my liberty. I'm going to come after you with all I have, but you're never changing my country, and its belief in fundamental human rights. We're never going to be as bad as you."

Bush and the neos are cowards, and so are you.

But hey, why stop at accusation of terror? How about accusation of supporting terror? How about associating with terrorists? How about attending a rally where someone accused of terrorist activity was speaking? How about being anti War on Terror?


Well said. You nailed it...

I wish the patriotic flag waving W bumper sticker yellow ribbon touting conservatives would step back and remove themselves from this party and president long enough to see what is really going on.

Long enough to see what the Bush family and others are doing. Long enough to see that the actions we are taking will bankrupt the country and cause long term dangers to this country the likes of which we have not seen in this country.

"Bring it on" is not acceptable.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #79 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
So you can be beaten up for being accused of something, and you say 'bravo.'

An accusation is enough to get you beaten up.

The terrorists have won. You've swapped a belief in high principles for the logic the terrorists use. And its cowardly.

Not brave enough to say, "I'm keeping my liberty. I'm going to come after you with all I have, but you're never changing my country, and its belief in fundamental human rights. We're never going to be as bad as you."

Bush and the neos are cowards, and so are you.

But hey, why stop at accusation of terror? How about accusation of supporting terror? How about associating with terrorists? How about attending a rally where someone accused of terrorist activity was speaking? How about being anti War on Terror?

++
post #80 of 225
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
But hey, why stop at accusation of terror? How about accusation of supporting terror? How about associating with terrorists? How about attending a rally where someone accused of terrorist activity was speaking? How about being anti War on Terror?

We're there already....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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