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Quartz 2D Extreme

post #1 of 90
10/22/04 at 3:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quartz 2D Extreme: What is it and what will it bring to the table?

In a thread over at MacNN there have been some speculation as to what this new technology might be and what it will do. I figured we should have a thread over here as well for our AI-intelligentia to chew on.

Here is a quote from that thread:

Quote:
Originally posted by Millenium over at MacNN
As for Quartz 2D Extreme, if this is actually a rewrite of Quartz to use the graphics card for all drawing (rather than just for compositing, as the current Quartz Extreme does), then this should increase the system's responsiveness. It is not strictly related to CoreImage, but they use some very similar concepts. Q2DE, however, does things which would apply in many more places, and so it should boost things almost everywhere.

So if this technology matures and gets shipped with Tiger, what will it mean for users and developers? Will this finally bring about the end of slow window-resizing and have the Mac OS UI return to the snappiness of old?
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post #2 of 90
10/23/04 at 6:38am
Quartz has nothing to do with slow window resizing...for fucks sake...how many times must it be explained.

OS X resizes everything in the window on-the-fly while Windows delays resizing things in the window. This is why you can get instant feedback on Macs at the expense of choppier window resizing as opposed to Windows where you don't get that instant feedback in-window feedback.

It has nothing to do with Quartz. You'll realize that iApps that have lots of different panes and elements crammed into one-window will resize much slower than windows with less elements to move around. If Quartz was a culprit, all windows would suffer the slow-window resize syndrome, which is not the case.

Can someone explain this more eloquently and post it as a sticky note for noobs?
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post #3 of 90
10/23/04 at 7:30am
The main benefits of pushing drawing to the GPU as well as compositing seem to be that 1. it frees up the CPU to do other things at the same time, 2. it means there less "chatting" between the CPU to the GPU since more of what the GPU cares about is pushed onto it from the start. Seems like more of a speed/processing gain than a quickness/responsiveness gain. But I'm not an expert.
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post #4 of 90
10/23/04 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
...Rude post...

He didn't know and he asked a question, Instead of being rude link to some of those topics where it's been discussed soooooo many times so he can be as smart as you, but probably not as rude.
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post #5 of 90
10/23/04 at 12:18pm
  • Kickaha
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Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Can someone explain this more eloquently and post it as a sticky note for noobs?

I'll do one better.

I'll refute it.

The window resizing is, as you say, because of live-content redraw, particularly in Cocoa apps where it is the default. Cocoa UI widgets all use Quartz's CoreGraphics for their underlying, most basic drawing.

Quartz 2D Extreme will offload CoreGraphics to the GPU where possible, which means...

Yes, Quartz 2D Extreme does indeed have the possibility of significantly improving window resizing speed. It may not in all cases, but it does have that distinct possibility.
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post #6 of 90
10/23/04 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
I'll do one better.

I'll refute it.

The window resizing is, as you say, because of live-content redraw, particularly in Cocoa apps where it is the default. Cocoa UI widgets all use Quartz's CoreGraphics for their underlying, most basic drawing.

Quartz 2D Extreme will offload CoreGraphics to the GPU where possible, which means...

Yes, Quartz 2D Extreme does indeed have the possibility of significantly improving window resizing speed. It may not in all cases, but it does have that distinct possibility.

If it doesn't in all cases, what's the point? People will keep complaining. Most of the calculations done by the CPU to move the elements accordingly won't be done by the GPU and that's probably the main reason why resizing is so slow.

Apple just needs to optimize window resizing algorithms...Quartz 2D Extreme will most likely do little.
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post #7 of 90
10/23/04 at 8:57pm
I'm a bit perplexed by the comment about Windows window resizing. I was to understand that window items and elements updated dynamically (graphic driver willing) when you resize a window, as well. So how is this "updating" different than OSX windows updating? (...or is this distinction too subtle to pick up visually, and more of a distinction of technical implementation?) That said, hasn't realtime window updating in Windows been fairly spiffy since the days of Win2k and GeForce2 cards? So why is this still such a rough thing for even modern Apple hardware to muster? At least in Windows, there was some settings panel where you could disable realtime updating if the hardware wasn't up to it, and viola- snappy window resizing. So why are we forced to grin and bear it in OSX, in lieu of having an option to scale down to deferred updating?
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post #8 of 90
10/23/04 at 9:48pm
  • Kickaha
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Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
If it doesn't in all cases, what's the point? People will keep complaining.

That's an asinine comment. If it doesn't help *every* case, it shouldn't be included?? Balderdash.

Only the least technically minded will still complain, after a quick explanation.

Quote:
Most of the calculations done by the CPU to move the elements accordingly won't be done by the GPU and that's probably the main reason why resizing is so slow.

So you do admit that you really don't know what the slowdown is.

The movement of elements isn't the slowdown. The rendering is. And that's what Q2DExtreme is designed to address.

Quote:
Apple just needs to optimize window resizing algorithms...Quartz 2D Extreme will most likely do little. [/B]

Actually, it will most likely do quite a bit. The 'resizing algorithms' you vaguely hint at are actually rather difficult to generalize. The current ones in Cocoa are highly convoluted to try and capture most cases, but *any* developer who wants good performance needs to optimize them for their own window content. Period. This is out of Apple's hands.

Apple is concentrating on the portion that they can do the most good in, and that is Quartz 2D Extreme... even for window resizing.

kks, your original reply above was rude and out of order... not to mention wrong.
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post #9 of 90
10/24/04 at 1:42am
Thread Starter 
There is a thread over at Ars Openforum, in the Macintoshian Achaia, discussing the slowdowns that sometimes appear in the Mac OS X UI. Halfway down on page two, member Thaen chimes in with this noteworthy little tidbit:

Quote:
Originally posted by Thaen at Ars Openforum
(for the record)

Window resizing will be 100% fixed in Tiger for anyone with a CoreImage compatible video card. Period. It's amazing.

When asked for further information he goes on to say this:

Quote:
Originally posted by Thaen at Ars Openforum
We saw a demo at the conference (WWDC) where the head engineer working on CoreImage showed how CoreImage-enabled applications (NOT all Cocoa apps, I finally got out of him after -- requires some kind of tuning for applications using custom UI elements) did Window-resizing.

The short version is that it's so fast that in order to take the benchmark measurement, they had to turn off Quartz' vsync-awareness: IOW, more than 60 fps live resizing for Safari. I saw no Finder demo, but I think it's safe to say that Apple will be "encouraging" its developers to get on the bandwagon.
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post #10 of 90
10/24/04 at 9:16am
Well, there you have it folks...window resizing fixed for people that have the highest end G4s or G5s...where window resizing isn't much of a problem.

People without a CoreImage-ready computer are shit out of luck.

I guess I was wrong...but it doesn't matter really since the complaining will never stop for people with G3s or low to mid-end G4s that don't have CoreImage-ready cards...unless they spend money on a card that is overkill for their CPU. Wasn't that the whole point anyways? To stop the complaining?

When Tiger is out, people will still be wondering why window resizing is slow.

ps. Who knows if Thaen really is saying the truth...like Stef right after Thaen's post "That's what they said about Quartz Extreme."
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post #11 of 90
10/24/04 at 10:06am
  • Kickaha
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Nope, sorry, wrong again. No developer who knew anything about Quartz Extreme would have ever claimed that it would have fixed window resizing - it had nothing to do with it. Stef is incorrect.

I distinctly remember those claims... but they were being bandied about by people who hadn't a clue what the new technology really did. Contrast with this case, where claims of non-effectiveness are being tossed around. Ah, how the pendulum swings.

In both cases, end users are throwing out speculation (pretty baseless ones I might add), and trying to make it look like technical data. Tis not.

And please... 'highest-end G4s and G5s'? iBooks are highest-end? Come on... sour grapes in the absence of facts are silly looking.
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post #12 of 90
10/24/04 at 12:53pm
I've heard from a few of the forums I frequent that Quartz 2D also speeds up text rendering. Safari was used as an example. With Quartz 2D enabled, text rendering sped up.

Mike
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post #13 of 90
10/24/04 at 1:38pm
  • Kickaha
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Yup, because the text rendering system uses... ta-da! Quartz 2D to render.

Most things that use Quartz 2D, indirectly or directly, will see a benefit from this. I suspect that CoreGraphics is included as well, and is the point at which the acceleration is taking place... in which case a LOT of situations will see a speedup.

No, not *every* situation... but a lot.

I've been chewing over the need for developers to alter their applications for the benefits wrt window resizing, and I think it points to what I was hinting at earlier: custom UI elements require developers to offer resizing methods if they want any sort of efficiency. Otherwise Cocoa is left to try and do it the old-fashioned (and slow) way. If devs have to tweak something resizing-related to be able to activate the new Q2DE resizing, then this would be a logical requirement.
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post #14 of 90
10/24/04 at 2:40pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
And please... 'highest-end G4s and G5s'? iBooks are highest-end? Come on... sour grapes in the absence of facts are silly looking.

What are you saying?

Even the recently released iBook update isn't CoreImage-ready with its videocard.

Who here has a CoreImage-ready computer...raise your hand and post your specs. I've got a feeling only a minority here have a card that fits the CoreImage bill. Unless you're the owner of a G5 computer or a year 2003 G4 PowerMac or recent PowerBook, you're out of luck.

Sorry, Kickaha, but this Quartz 2D Extreme is pretty out of reach for to those that need it the most.
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post #15 of 90
10/24/04 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
What are you saying?

Even the recently released iBook update isn't CoreImage-ready with its videocard.

Who here has a CoreImage-ready computer...raise your hand and post your specs. I've got a feeling only a minority here have a card that fits the CoreImage bill. Unless you're the owner of a G5 computer or a year 2003 G4 PowerMac or recent PowerBook, you're out of luck.

Sorry, Kickaha, but this Quartz 2D Extreme is pretty out of reach for to those that need it the most.

I think any Mac that is capable of Quartz Extreme is capable of Quartz Extreme 2D.
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post #16 of 90
10/24/04 at 3:54pm
No way, dude! 2D is the new, new barrier to negotiate, after that 3D barrier was broken through! 2D hardware acceleration...now that's just crazy talk!
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post #17 of 90
10/24/04 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally posted by MPMoriarty
I think any Mac that is capable of Quartz Extreme is capable of Quartz Extreme 2D.

Well, if Thaen is to be believed and Kickaha seems to also believe that Quartz 2D Extreme is offloading graphics to the GPU, then you won't be getting Quartz 2D Extreme goodness unless you have the latest crop of graphics cards.
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post #18 of 90
10/24/04 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
No way, dude! 2D is the new, new barrier to negotiate, after that 3D barrier was broken through! 2D hardware acceleration...now that's just crazy talk!

I hate 3D games now...I hope people will start leveraging the new GPU capabilities to bring high quality 2D graphics effects to 2D remakes of old games or even make new kinds of 2D games.
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post #19 of 90
10/24/04 at 6:16pm
Heh- for a refreshingly over-the-top revisitation of a classic 2D game (Asteroids), applied with fancy modern graphics effects, check out Argonaut 2149. Whoah, dude! (It's even made just for us Mac users on OSX)
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post #20 of 90
10/24/04 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
No way, dude! 2D is the new, new barrier to negotiate, after that 3D barrier was broken through! 2D hardware acceleration...now that's just crazy talk!

I'm holding out for the next-generation, 1D hardware accelleration, myself.


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post #21 of 90
10/24/04 at 7:40pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Well, if Thaen is to be believed and Kickaha seems to also believe that Quartz 2D Extreme is offloading graphics to the GPU, then you won't be getting Quartz 2D Extreme goodness unless you have the latest crop of graphics cards.

There's no 'believe' about it. Q2DE will be placing more graphics rendering onto the GPU. But please don't put words in my mouth regarding the necessary hardware.

How about we take a look at the requirements for CoreImage? Now, CoreImage and Q2DE are two quite different technologies, but CI is, IMO, the more processor intensive of the two. In that respect, this should be a more restrictive list than for Q2DE.

Got that list of cards supporting CoreImage handy, do you?

No?

Here, let me help: (from http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/core.html)

Quote:
The performance gains and features supported by Core Image ultimately depend on the graphics card. Graphics cards capable of pixel-level programming deliver the best performance. But Core Image automatically scales as appropriate for systems with older graphics cards, for compatibility with any Tiger-compatible Mac.

Supported graphics cards:

ATI Radeon 9800 XT
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro
ATI Radeon 9600 XT
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700
ATI Mobility Radeon 9600
NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra
NVIDIA GeForceFX Go 5200
NVIDIA GeForceFX 5200 Ultra

These cards are available in todays PowerBooks, Power Mac G5s and both the 17-inch and 20-inch iMac.

Yeah, that 17-inch iMac... wow, what a high-end machine... and man, nobody could ever be complaining about a GPU *that* advanced!

Remember also that Quartz Extreme had a more limited list of supported cards in the developer previews than in the final release.
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post #22 of 90
10/24/04 at 10:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol Apple just needs to optimize window resizing algorithms...Quartz 2D Extreme will most likely do little. [/B]

Sorry, but you are just wrong.

In Panther, much of CoreGraphics 2D is not hardware accelerated. In Tiger this will change.

If you have access to the WWDC 2004 DVD content check out the Quartz-related sessions. There's all kinds of stuff in there how Tiger now uses hw acc for many many more 2D operations than Panther.

Some operations, like drawing single lines, are much faster. In fact, many operations are faster.

If you don't think this will pay off with faster window resizing then you're...well pick your own insulting word.

Bryan
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post #23 of 90
10/24/04 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha Remember also that Quartz Extreme had a more limited list of supported cards in the developer previews than in the final release. [/B]

First.... Core Image probably will not be compatible with older graphics cards simply because of the lack of programmable shaders (as I understand it). It's not a matter of optimizing something on the client side -- the cards just can't jump through the hoops that Core Image will present.

But... lack of Core Image support does not necessarily mean that nothing 2D can be hw acc. I believe portions of 2D CG are will be hw acc anytime the machine is compatible with Quartz Extreme.

Again, check out the WWDC DVDs. This stuff is all discussed in detail.
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post #24 of 90
10/24/04 at 11:52pm
Well, I guess I'll get this started- I can't believe my new iBook is already going to be left behind (by virtue of its ATI 9200 GPU)! (a crybaby smiley here would have been more applicable, if I had access to one) Seriously though, how can ATI not have programmable pixel shaders since the 9xxx series??? Damn you, ATI- get wit the program already! \
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post #25 of 90
10/25/04 at 5:09am
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
There's no 'believe' about it. Q2DE will be placing more graphics rendering onto the GPU. But please don't put words in my mouth regarding the necessary hardware.

How about we take a look at the requirements for CoreImage? Now, CoreImage and Q2DE are two quite different technologies, but CI is, IMO, the more processor intensive of the two. In that respect, this should be a more restrictive list than for Q2DE.

Got that list of cards supporting CoreImage handy, do you?

No?

Here, let me help: (from http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/core.html)



Yeah, that 17-inch iMac... wow, what a high-end machine... and man, nobody could ever be complaining about a GPU *that* advanced!

Remember also that Quartz Extreme had a more limited list of supported cards in the developer previews than in the final release.

Stop making it sound like everyone is going to be able to benefit from Quartz 2D Extreme. Everyone IS NOT going to benefit. You need the recently released iMac G5 or the last PowerBook lineup or a PowerMac released in the last year and a half to get the benefits of Quartz 2D Extreme.

Really, raise your hand if you've got specs that include a CoreImage-ready graphics card.

Kickaha...I don't think you'll find any G3 computer with a graphics card that meets the specs or any G4 under 1GHz. Hell, like I said, the new iBooks aren't even ready for Quartz 2D Extreme.
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post #26 of 90
10/25/04 at 6:25am
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
Well, I guess I'll get this started- I can't believe my new iBook is already going to be left behind (by virtue of its ATI 9200 GPU)! (a crybaby smiley here would have been more applicable, if I had access to one) Seriously though, how can ATI not have programmable pixel shaders since the 9xxx series??? Damn you, ATI- get wit the program already! \

It's not like you won't be able to use Tiger or something.
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post #27 of 90
10/25/04 at 6:32am
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
It's not like you won't be able to use Tiger or something.

No but he won't get smooth window resizing...correct me if I'm wrong but the thread is called 'Quartz 2D Extreme' and discussing who's going to be disappointed and left out and who's not when it comes to smooth window resizing .

So far, it seems only those with a graphics card that is less than a year and a half old will benefit from Quartz 2D Extreme. And thus, there will be much complaining even after Tiger ships.

I'm not complaining though...I'm saying this matter of factly. I will have a graphics card that supports all the graphical goodness when Tiger finally ships just to set the record straight. But, matter of factly, there will be complaining from people.
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post #28 of 90
10/25/04 at 8:57am
  • Kickaha
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Yes there will.

There is *always* whining when something new comes out that requires newer hardware than someone currently owns.

And please, kim, I am not in any way trying to assert that everyone will be able to use CoreImage or Q2DE. Not even close. I am, however, trying to offset your doom and gloom of "If it doesn't in all cases, what's the point?" I mean come on, man. That's just asinine.

And bully for you that you're going to be CI/Q2DE ready. I'm not. But I also am not going to whine about it like a crybaby. Nor am I going to bitch at Apple for putting more solid technology in the hands of developers, and hence, in the hands of users.

So stop spreading FUD in here. Especially when you're just flat out technically wrong in the first place.
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post #29 of 90
10/25/04 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Quartz has nothing to do with slow window resizing...for fucks sake...how many times must it be explained.

Quartz has quite a lot to do with it. A speed boost in Quartz should result in smoother window resizing for most apps.
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post #30 of 90
10/25/04 at 12:36pm
I don't see what is so bad about releasing an OS that only all of its features work on the currently shipping products. As long as when a machine ships with tiger on it that machine can use all its features there is no reason to complain.

As long as Tiger will install on my older machines I will consider it an upgrade.
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post #31 of 90
10/25/04 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally posted by salmonstk
I don't see what is so bad about releasing an OS that only all of its features work on the currently shipping products. As long as when a machine ships with tiger on it that machine can use all its features there is no reason to complain.

As long as Tiger will install on my older machines I will consider it an upgrade.

Nothing bad about it. Just saying that Quartz 2D Extreme is not a savior to everyone's woes...in fact, most people will not get any benefits from Q2DE. Those that do, already have the horsepower and bandwidth to handle window resizing pretty well. Q2DE might just step it up a notch and maybe even be overkill for the lucky G5 owners...but who knows.
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post #32 of 90
10/25/04 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Nothing bad about it. Just saying that Quartz 2D Extreme is not a savior to everyone's woes...in fact, most people will not get any benefits from Q2DE.

This is clearly a glass-half-empty statement.

I'm pretty sure you mean that "Quartz 2D Extreme is not an IMMEDIATE savior to everyone's woes..."

After all, you're the one who keeps asking for a how of hands of how many people will benefit. I for one will, and bought my machine around a year ago.

Now, for a more apropos poll: How many people will NEVER upgrade their Macintosh to a current model. That is the number of people who will NOT benefit from this.
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post #33 of 90
10/25/04 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Mornini
This is clearly a glass-half-empty statement.

I'm pretty sure you mean that "Quartz 2D Extreme is not an IMMEDIATE savior to everyone's woes..."

After all, you're the one who keeps asking for a how of hands of how many people will benefit. I for one will, and bought my machine around a year ago.

Now, for a more apropos poll: How many people will NEVER upgrade their Macintosh to a current model. That is the number of people who will NOT benefit from this.

I don't think you're understanding what's going on here...G5s don't have many window resizing problems. So simply upgrading to a G5 computer or a dual-CPU computer is just as good an upgrade as Quartz 2D Extreme will be (maybe)...upgrading always solves performance problems. That's not the question here.

The thread is called 'Quartz 2D Extreme.' Not 'Dual G5s PowerMacs - Will they solve my window resizing problems'.

People want to have smooth window resizing with their CURRENT hardware. That's not going to be possible in most cases.

The bitching will continue...that's all I'm saying. Post a sticky note with laymen explanations and we won't get so much bitching and people will actually learn something.
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post #34 of 90
10/25/04 at 4:51pm
What percentage of your working day involves resizing windows?
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post #35 of 90
10/25/04 at 5:09pm
I don't care if it is a small percentage. It shouldn't be a problem in the first place (as it hasn't been in Windows since what, like the late 1990's?). To premise that a 2003/4 level videocard is a requirement to finally get this issue licked is ridiculous. Hell, give me a blank rectangle feedback if that is what it takes to get instantaneous, hardware-assisted window resizing. I don't care if it is "ugly" for a moment. I just want it to be painless.
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post #36 of 90
10/25/04 at 6:19pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
As long as some users insist on complaining, window-resizing will never be painless.

Tom, you nailed it. CoreImage could run on 90% of the machines sold in the last three years, and some folks would *STILL* take the opportunity to do the song and dance about how Apple was 'screwing' over the remaining 10%.

CoreImage and Q2DE look to be *fabulous* technologies that will scale nicely along a gamut of cards. Worst case scenario: they won't run on your hardware... but the older techologies still will. Woo.

And frankly, kks, the thread *is* named 'Quartz 2D Extreme' not 'kim kap sol's rant about window resizing'. Lay off. You were wrong in the first place from a technical standpoint, and now you're making assertions regarding dual G5 vs. Quartz 2D Extreme that you simply can't back up, or even for that matter, have knowledge about since CI and Q2DE haven't shipped yet.

Jeez.
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post #37 of 90
10/25/04 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha

And frankly, kks, the thread *is* named 'Quartz 2D Extreme' not 'kim kap sol's rant about window resizing'. Lay off. You were wrong in the first place from a technical standpoint, and now you're making assertions regarding dual G5 vs. Quartz 2D Extreme that you simply can't back up, or even for that matter, have knowledge about since CI and Q2DE haven't shipped yet.

Jeez.

So how would you know if it works like you envision it. There are no demos anywhere and its not enabled in the WWDC build apparently.

At this point everything is pure speculations.
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post #38 of 90
10/25/04 at 7:26pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
There is speculation built on a foundation of knowing how the system currently works, reported improvement goals, and rough sketches of the implementation... and then there are speculations pulled out of thin air.

I'll let you decide which one of us is dealing with which.
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post #39 of 90
10/25/04 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
There is speculation built on a foundation of knowing how the system currently works, reported improvement goals, and rough sketches of the implementation... and then there are speculations pulled out of thin air.

I'll let you decide which one of us is dealing with which.

Still speculation no matter how you slice it.
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post #40 of 90
10/25/04 at 8:00pm
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
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