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post #41 of 70
I've got some interesting information on the flu vaccine generation, and the reasons why we have the current shortage:

Production schedule
Aug (of previous year): Company contracts ~50 chicken farms to produce fertilized eggs. Laying starts on december.

Jan-May: The CDC provides live seed viruses for strains it thinks will be present. Usually three strains are selected.
Companies inoculate ~12-day-old eggs. Virus grows in developing embryo for three days. Each egg generates six doses for each virus, but since each virus must be grown separately, effectively two doses per egg. Fluid is collected, and virus is inactivated through formaldehyde crosslinking.

June-July: Purity and quanity is checked, all sorts of strict purity assurances.

Aug-Sept: Pack and ship vaccines.

Oct-Nov: Begin Vaccinations.

Here's the problem: The companies only get one shot at this each year, because the process starts the year before. If one step is screwed up, you're hosed.
Evidently what happened this year was that Aventis, the only manufacturer in the US, had a mass serratia contamination in their egg cultures.
Several years ago there used to be 27 companies making vaccines, but now only five. In 2002, Wyeth (the other US manufacturer) quit making them because 12 million doeses were not used by the public, causing lots of revenue loss.

Considering that over a billion doses of the flu vaccine are made each year, you would think that there would be some stockpile, but because of the extremely stringent quality assurance required, companies only make as much as necessary.

Technically, it's no ones fault, it just happens to be a domino effect. Other methods exist for making vaccines, but the problem is that they have to go through massive FDA approval steps (since the vaccines are used in so many people) that the cost is almost prohibitive.

Moral of the story: One of the reasons american prescription drugs cost more than canadian drugs is because we pay a lot (read all) of the research costs. The more people who buy cheap drugs, the less money avalible for research. However, Pfizer made over a billion dollars on Viagra (a fix for a "disease" that never killed anybody), so pointing fingers is rather difficult.
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post #42 of 70
I don't mean to sound insulting, but Cool Gut is surprisingly uninformed/misinformed.

That's not insulting, I'll admit that my knowledge on specifics lacks greatly, but after a little checking, it seems I faired pretty well against this bunch.

1. Regarding effectiveness, a flu shot contains 3 strains of flu picked by the WHO and other organizations 1 year in advance. Considering there are approx 130 or so strains of the flu, it's effectiveness can already be called into question.

2. Quote "The main reason for allergia seems to be the pollution, and the way of life (for example, you eat the same vegetables all the year long). I don't know where you get your infos, but they are totally wrong, and this is a professional advice.

With all due respect, that's pretty much the answer I would expect from someone in the medical field. I swear, the way some people are posting here, you'd think that getting a vaccine was like eating an orange - just pure goodness. As you say - " main reason for allergia SEEMS to be pollution ..." You said "seems" because the truth is, no one knows what causes allergies. Sure you directly link vaccines to allergies, but there is no way you can cross vaccines as at least a part contributer to allergies. Funny how you mention the small pox vaccine, as it has some pretty brutal initial side effects, including being bed ridden for a few days. But hey, it certainly couldn't be doing anything BAD to you.

It has even been stated in this thread that the reason vaccines kill some children could be due to an allergic reaction to the vaccine -so how can you not suspect a link between vaccines and allergies?

http://64.41.99.118/vran/vaccines/an...accine_ana.htm

By the way, you've gotta love the Medical communities response to such claims:
"Anecdotal reports and uncontrolled studies have proposed that vaccines may cause particular allergic or autoimmune diseases,"

Yes, how dare we question the medical community.


3. Guillain-Barre syndrom. http://www.guillain-barre.com/overview.html

Vaccines have not been directly linked to Guillain-Barre (most likely due to pressure from Governments and Drug companies) but it's kinda like Scott Peterson - there maybe no smoking gun, but you just know that the little shit is responsible.

4. "Vaccines not effective? What a joke. There's a reason small pox and polio isn't around anymore."

No it's not. We have NO proof that vaccinations ended it, or if they ended naturally.
http://www.gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org/Vaccines.htm

It amazes me how "blindly" the medical community (present company exluded of course) sticks to it's methods. The very same people who are responsible for handing anti-biotics out like candy, resulting in super aggressive bacterial infections (flesh eating desease) seem to be taking the same silly approach with vaccines. If your in medicine and can't see the problem with artificially jump starting you immune system year after year, just to stop getting a cold, then I don't know what to say.
post #43 of 70
Originally posted by the cool gut


1. Regarding effectiveness, a flu shot contains 3 strains of flu picked by the WHO and other organizations 1 year in advance. Considering there are approx 130 or so strains of the flu, it's effectiveness can already be called into question.

Yes the FLU vaccination is a bet : it doesnt work all the time. That's not a secret

2. Quote "The main reason for allergia seems to be the pollution, and the way of life (for example, you eat the same vegetables all the year long). I don't know where you get your infos, but they are totally wrong, and this is a professional advice.

With all due respect, that's pretty much the answer I would expect from someone in the medical field. I swear, the way some people are posting here, you'd think that getting a vaccine was like eating an orange - just pure goodness. As you say - " main reason for allergia SEEMS to be pollution ..." You said "seems" because the truth is, no one knows what causes allergies. Sure you directly link vaccines to allergies, but there is no way you can cross vaccines as at least a part contributer to allergies. Funny how you mention the small pox vaccine, as it has some pretty brutal initial side effects, including being bed ridden for a few days. But hey, it certainly couldn't be doing anything BAD to you.

It has even been stated in this thread that the reason vaccines kill some children could be due to an allergic reaction to the vaccine -so how can you not suspect a link between vaccines and allergies?

http://64.41.99.118/vran/vaccines/an...accine_ana.htm

By the way, you've gotta love the Medical communities response to such claims:
"Anecdotal reports and uncontrolled studies have proposed that vaccines may cause particular allergic or autoimmune diseases,"

Yes, how dare we question the medical community.


[B]

a) First point, you are wrong when you say : how dare we question the medical community. You assume it's a unique entity. You are wrong, it's a diverse community interested in medecine. Would you suggest that the advice of somebody not involved in the medical field (in the large sens : from biologie to genetic) may have an advice on something he do not study ?

Do you dare to question the scientifical community for the Einstein theory ? Personnaly I don't understand his demonstration. The scientifical community agree with this theory : I believe it's right, I will revisit my judgement the day the scientific community will change her mind, or the day I will be able to understand fully this theory (and this day, I think I will belong my self to this community).

b) Second point. I am sorry to disagree with you but you mix 2 differents things :
- What stuff can give allergia
- What are the cause of the increase of the number of allergic phenomenas.

Mostly everything can give an allergia, even gold, or food. Some mustard or peanuts can kill you. Each year people are dying of it. So yes Vaccines can give you allergie, even condom have killed people. By your own line of reasonning, we should conclude that gold increase the number of allergia : so removed all this gold stuff around the world ...



3. Guillain-Barre syndrom. http://www.guillain-barre.com/overview.html

Vaccines have not been directly linked to Guillain-Barre (most likely due to pressure from Governments and Drug companies) but it's kinda like Scott Peterson - there maybe no smoking gun, but you just know that the little shit is responsible.


The most likely due to pressure of governements is pretty interesting . An another conspiracy theory. Strange that when a point of vue diverge with the official advices, it's a conspiracy. Could it not be more simple that there is no link between the two ?

4. "Vaccines not effective? What a joke. There's a reason small pox and polio isn't around anymore."

No it's not. We have NO proof that vaccinations ended it, or if they ended naturally.
http://www.gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org/Vaccines.htm

It amazes me how "blindly" the medical community (present company exluded of course) sticks to it's methods. The very same people who are responsible for handing anti-biotics out like candy, resulting in super aggressive bacterial infections (flesh eating desease) seem to be taking the same silly approach with vaccines. If your in medicine and can't see the problem with artificially jump starting you immune system year after year, just to stop getting a cold, then I don't know what to say.


I am sorry to say that but your link is not serious. If I provide to you a link saying that the Shoah do not exist, would you take it seriously ?

VACCINATION HAVE SAVED MILLIONS OF LIFE

PS : Yes handing antibiotics out like candy result in super aggressive (or more accurately to antibiotics resistance) bacterial infections. This is bad medecine. And this point is emphasized by all the expert of bacteriological infections. More there is an huge governemental adverstising campaign in france about this subject.

Yes vaccines are not always 100 % safe. But you increase your life expectancy dramatically when you are vaccinated.
Nothing is 100 % safe in this world, would you avoy to eat, just because some extremely rare acccidents may happen ?
post #44 of 70
Well, I guess this could be taken as good news that AIDS might just eventually blink-out on its own, as well, right?
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post #45 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
Well, I guess this could be taken as good news that AIDS might just eventually blink-out on its own, as well, right?

I was about to say the same thing.
post #46 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
Well, I guess this could be taken as good news that AIDS might just eventually blink-out on its own, as well, right?

Are you both serious? I just want to get this straight, so that I'm sure we're on the same page:

Your asking me why Aids is still around, if something like Polio went away by itself? Is that what your implying?

Polio, a disease, where the person is only infectious for 2 or 3 weeks after becoming infected?

Compared with Aids, where a person can pass the disease along for the remainder of their life, not even realizing their infected?

Come on.

On an interesting note though, the species of monkey which some think HIV came from, carries the virus without ever contracting Aids. One theory is, is that they "developed" their immunity to it. Obviously, no one kows for sure, or how long that immunity would have taken to develope.

Another interesting tid - bit is where aids came from:

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmart...ocuments/AIDS/


This is straying quite far from what I originally intended. Are vaccines really worth it for something like the Flu?
post #47 of 70
Ah, no. You should read it literally...perhaps, there is an off-chance that AIDS could just blink itself out in the future. Maybe the more people that get it, the more likely a natural immunity will arise? At the very least, a great number will die off who failed to develop an immunity, with the remaining few to pass on these immunity genes and repopulate, maybe? So bothering to develop a cure is a bit unnecessary if you are willing to let this natural cycle pan out...

HOORAY! Skin on skin sex is gonna be back in style! Where's Laurie Dhue?! We got some celebratin' to do!
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post #48 of 70
There is an evidence that vaccines works : tests.

For example the rabbies test : inoculate one hundred dogs with rabbies, and vaccinate 50 of them. Guess who will die and who will survive.
Same apply for humans, for the first time in humankind an human (a 10 years old boy) survived of an inoculation of rabbies after the vaccine performed by Pasteur.

Vaccines are tested. When it's released, the efficacity is knowed. You can even check at your individual level if you are protected : intradermo reaction for tuberculosis, amount of antibody for various vaccines like B hepatitis.
For example I have ten years ago, a huge amount of B hepatitis antibody that allowed me to give my blood in order to make a serum.

So the efficacity of vaccines is not only demonstrated by statistical studies, but more simply by clinical studies.

Now for the FLU, this vaccine is not recommanded for you.
You are younger than 70, you are not immunodepressed or weak, and you do not work in an hospital.
post #49 of 70
There a lot of weird vaccination issues in the US. People say it causes autism and other things, for example. My cousin didn't get her children vaccinated. She's a wacko, but it's not that uncommon here.

To be honest, I understand it, although I don't agree with it. You go and get a shot and you're not sick and you don't know what's in the shot only that some authority figure told you to. And there's a definite anti-science/technology trend in the US. Remember that the majority of people in the US, or maybe about half, are young-earth creationists - they believe God put Adam and Eve on the earth, as is, just a few thousand years ago, and that Darwinism is a lie perpetrated by scientists to put down God. In that context, being anti-vaccination isn't so radical. \
post #50 of 70
What about the other theory that vaccinations are actually a covert government experiment to hybridize alien DNA into humans?
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post #51 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by the cool gut
On an interesting note though, the species of monkey which some think HIV came from, carries the virus without ever contracting Aids.

This has been observed in some humans with HIV as well. Also that some people at risk have exhibited a natural resistance to contracting HIV. Not sure if this has been seen with HIV yet, but some people with Hepatitis C spontaneously clear the virus (it can no longer be found in their blood samples).

And just by-the-by, it's widely recognized that the single biggest contributor to the reduction in infectious diseases over the last 100 years has been neither antibiotics nor vaccines but rather improvements in hygiene and public health measures.
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post #52 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by crazychester
This has been observed in some humans with HIV as well. Also that some people at risk have exhibited a natural resistance to contracting HIV. Not sure if this has been seen with HIV yet, but some people with Hepatitis C spontaneously clear the virus (it can no longer be found in their blood samples).

And just by-the-by, it's widely recognized that the single biggest contributor to the reduction in infectious diseases over the last 100 years has been neither antibiotics nor vaccines but rather improvements in hygiene and public health measures.

If my memory is correct Paul Mickael Glazer (remember Starsky) is one of the very few happy people to be naturally resistant (that do not mean he clear the virus, just he don't caugh it) to this virus. His wife died of Aids several years ago, and his childs also caught the virus, but dispite many sexual non protected relations he did not caught it.
The HIV need some protein in the surface of the T cell to be active, and some people have a very small amount of them.

I don't want to say that hygiene and public measures are non effective (they are the only way to stop Lassa or ebola virus for example) but according the World health organisation (bad translation ?) the small pox diseapared because of vaccines. Now this vaccine is useless and my child did not recieve it.
The polyo virus should disappear too, if it's cleared from some poor countries (it's almost eradicate in occidental countries). It's a goal that could be achieved in ten years.

Now some epidemia are recovering like tuberculosis. Even if this vaccine is not 100 % proof, it prevents people to suffer of the worst form of this illness, like meningitis or bone infection.
post #53 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
If my memory is correct Paul Mickael Glazer (remember Starsky) is one of the very few happy people to be naturally resistant (that do not mean he clear the virus, just he don't caugh it) to this virus. His wife died of Aids several years ago, and his childs also caught the virus, but dispite many sexual non protected relations he did not caught it.
The HIV need some protein in the surface of the T cell to be active, and some people have a very small amount of them.

I don't want to say that hygiene and public measures are non effective (they are the only way to stop Lassa or ebola virus for example) but according the World health organisation (bad translation ?) the small pox diseapared because of vaccines. Now this vaccine is useless and my child did not recieve it.
The polyo virus should disappear too, if it's cleared from some poor countries (it's almost eradicate in occidental countries). It's a goal that could be achieved in ten years.

Now some epidemia are recovering like tuberculosis. Even if this vaccine is not 100 % proof, it prevents people to suffer of the worst form of this illness, like meningitis or bone infection.

Oh yeah, I remember Starsky. I had a rather large teenage crush on him. I wasn't suggesting resistance was common. But the rare individuals who haven't displayed the normal response to HIV exposure have attracted the attention of researchers who hope they might provide clues in the hunt for a vaccine or cure. Having worked in HIV/AIDS education, I'd be the last person on the planet to suggest that, unless you're sure about yourself and your partner, you should do anything other than always fuck safe and shoot clean.

As for the public health thing, in the 3 years I spent in med school before dropping out (much to the relief of patients everywhere), this point was drilled home to us. I'm sure they were referring to the First World and I don't think they meant to imply that it was the solution to everything. But they were most insistent that, looking at the statistics, the biggest drop off in infectious diseases preceded the advent of antibiotics and vaccines. But I'm not going looking for a reference because I know you don't read my references anyway.

BTW I wasn't really worried about the monkey virus. That was just dramatic effect. If I worried about everything we're told medicine might have got wrong in my lifetime, I'd be a walking bundle of nerves.

While I'm in myth-smashing mode the cool gut, I travelled a lot as a young child when smallpox was still around and myself and all five members of my immediate family have had the smallpox vaccine. I don't recall any of us being sick in bed for days afterward although I may have been too young at the time to remember.

As an aside, David Soul/Hutch made a guest appearance in a British comedy show I was watching last night. Gosh how he's aged and packed on the pounds.
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post #54 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
There a lot of weird vaccination issues in the US. People say it causes autism and other things, for example.

...

There was a big study in Europe that proved there was no connection between autism and vaccinations. Of course the american group representing parents of autistic children rejected the science out of hand because it did not confirm their belief that autism is caused by vaccinations.
post #55 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by crazychester
. But I'm not going looking for a reference because I know you don't read my references anyway.


He I read your link : it's not my fault if it was bogus (the one saying that the monkey thing was due to the oral polio vaccine)
post #56 of 70
Don't forget the 1918 pandemic when talking about the flu. An estimated 40 million people worldwide were killed by it. Yes the elderly and the young were hit, but the real increase in deaths were in healthy adults. Pandemics tend to be cyclical. When it hits again, if we are not prepared, everyone will soon forget 9/11.

Vaccines aren't perfect, but we should be working to make them perfect. They should be a part our national security effort. Instead the US is ignorant of any problems with production until the UK notifies them (And only after the Brits secure their supply from someone else). Beyond reality, a very scary and very possible scenario comes to mind. We know the supply was tainted, but not by what or who. What if terrorists were responsible? Could it have been tainted with HIV, Hepatitis or Ebola? What if those millions of tainted doses ended up in American arms? It is time for the government to get involved in perfecting and protecting the flu vaccine.
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post #57 of 70
I'm getting my flue shot Monday. Required for athletes. \

I hate shots.
post #58 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
I'm getting my flue shot Monday. Required for athletes. \

I hate shots.

I wonder why it's required for athletes. Seems a little strange to give them to healthy people when people who really need them aren't getting them this year.
post #59 of 70
...like I said earlier- covert government project to test alien DNA hybridization. What better subject for a super human-alien hybrid to fight the coming invasion? Think about it! If it is remotely plausible then it is most certainly the correct explanation.
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post #60 of 70
Quote:
...like I said earlier- covert government project to test alien DNA hybridization. What better subject for a super human-alien hybrid to fight the coming invasion? Think about it! If it is remotely plausible then it is most certainly the correct explanation.

Shh! You're giving it all away!
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post #61 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I wonder why it's required for athletes. Seems a little strange to give them to healthy people when people who really need them aren't getting them this year.

agreed. however, my university receives a set amount every year. so, nothing changes. if i didn't get one, it'd go to waste or some other regular student.

we're required to get one due to being outside for practice and running our bodies down everyday. getting the flu wipes you out of practice for at least 2 weeks.
post #62 of 70
My mum has teh polio vaccination scar. Aiyeee! Hold me, Scully! Hold me until the fear in me subsides...
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post #63 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
My mum has teh polio vaccination scar. Aiyeee! Hold me, Scully! Hold me until the fear in me subsides...

Code Orange monkey virus alert!



........Your "mum"? I thought you were a Yank. [eyes narrow suspiciously]
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post #64 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I wonder why it's required for athletes. Seems a little strange to give them to healthy people when people who really need them aren't getting them this year.

Shows the priorities. An asthmatic geek like Kickaha, who may well be inventing the next breakthrough in man/machine interface, has to die so a big, dumb jock like Applenut won't miss a game. To top it off, he will bully the few surviving geeks.

Sorry, Applenut. I just couldn't resist. We know from your posts you are actually the rare big, smart jock. Apologies also for stereotyping Kick.
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post #65 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by murk
Shows the priorities. An asthmatic geek like Kickaha, who may well be inventing the next breakthrough in man/machine interface, has to die so a big, dumb jock like Applenut won't miss a game. To top it off, he will bully the few surviving geeks.

Sorry, Applenut. I just couldn't resist. We know from your posts you are actually the rare big, smart jock. Apologies also for stereotyping Kick.

joking aside, I got in on my own merit, as an out of stater which if you know about admissions is no easy feet.

also, you ignore my message in that the school has a set amount, all of which is available to anyone if they go to the set dates for the shot. im required in that my coach is making us all go to one of the dates to get the shot. it's not like the university is restricting the shot to only athletes. that would be a NCAA violation.
post #66 of 70
I have not had a Flu shot in 15 years ...im 35 and have not been sick for more than a day or two...in that 15 years so I am not getting one ever again....
post #67 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by G2G
I have not had a Flu shot in 15 years ...im 35 and have not been sick for more than a day or two...in that 15 years so I am not getting one ever again....

yea, i've never gotten one and rarely get sick. i really would prefer not to get one. in general i try to take the minium amount of drugs/medicine/vaccinations I have to. Probably silly, but I don't trust everything and think for the most part if you get sick and fight it off its a bit better. but whatever.
post #68 of 70
I'm very surprised that the concept of herd immunity has not been introduced to this thread up to this point!
post #69 of 70
My mother almost dies from a flue shot. The Doctor told her to never get another one. She still has trouble breathing years later.
post #70 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiemo View Post

I'm very surprised that the concept of herd immunity has not been introduced to this thread up to this point!

The flu shot does not have the same herd immunity effect as other vaccinations because of the rapid mutation of the many different flu viruses. This is why the flu, as of this point, will not be eradicated like say, polio has (mostly) been, or how HPV could easily be (if not for the religious and anti-vax nutters).
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