"Stolen Honor " Free Download

In jail for what?

This thread is going to get nasty quick...

Well, it's an extremely manipulative and misleading film, so that's to be expected.

So what did you see in the film that made you think it was misleading?

I'm very interested in this because while I have not gotten to watch the entire film, the majority of the footage I have seen in men retelling what occurred to them during the Vietnam war and their issues with people protesting the war while they were prisoners.

So basically folks like you are calling these POW's liars about their first hand experiences. I wonder what you can base that upon.

Nick

There's quite a movement among the conservatives to say that Kerry is ineligible to be president because of the 14th amendment. Here's one example from our beloved NewsMax.
So the Constitution says you can't take an oath and then give aid and comfort to the enemy. If you do, you are disqualified from becoming president. This was designed to keep confederates out of office in the South.

OK, so if Kerry's statements are used by the Vietnamese, that means he gave aid and comfort to the enemy? Then is Bush ineligible to be president - he clearly gave aid to bin Laden by not getting him when we had the chance? He said he wasn't concerned about bin Laden - that must have comforted him. What about not going after Zarqawi? Or what about invading Iraq - bin Laden no doubt loved that as a way to recruit terrorists in the fight against the evil America invading Muslim land. We could just go on and on with this.

wow. back during the RNC after chris matthews got challenged to a duel by zell (wtf?), he commented on how he was amazed that, not only did the republicans not want him to be president, they didn't want him to BE.

i have not watched f-911, and i won't watch this. their both partisan efforts, and i won't support either. havign said that, i am sick of stump speeches and celebrity trot-outs and... well... can we just go ahead and vote already? (i can only imagine the hell in a swing-state)

Oh Christ where to begin...

Let's see, you start off with Kerry's testimony (cropped, as always, to avoid the part where he's just relaying what he's heard from other veterans) and immediately plunge into descriptions of the various torture methods by NV. The strong implication being that Kerry's testimony had something to do with what they went through.

Then the narrator comes right out and says, "Little did the American prisoners of war imagine that half-way around the world events were conspiring to make their precarious situation even more desparate." (That's a quote). Yes, ladies and gentlemen, John Kerry *CONSPIRED* to make the situation of the POWs even worse.

Then the narrator questions the timing of Kerry's testimony, attempting to draw a line between his testimony and how dangerous Vietnam was;
Yet to the average American combatant, having been branded by Kerry as a demon and a murderer, getting out of Vietnam alive was a high-risk adventure.

Kerry's testimony made the war more dangerous? How might this work? Well, let's get to that.

NV takes Kerry's testimony and tries to get prisoners to admit that they are guilty of it. Heart-wrenching? Yes. Relevant in any way to anything? No.
Unless Kerry went there and did this it makes absolutely ZERO sense to throw it in his face now. No sense at all.


Please quote me or stop making shit up, please.

I agree. I pretty much hate all politicians this time of year, and I'm just going to run out, vote, and run back.

Kerry didn't relay anything but nonsense. Not a single person would sign an affidavit. Not a single person would personally come before Congress themselves. Additionally he didn't just present the information. He used it to accuse the entire armed services of war attrocities that were known and endorsed up the entire chain of command.


When the enemy believes you are weakening and being destroyed from within, they will continue to fight longer and stronger than they might have previously. When you are a POW being tortured and malnurished, that extension of fighting can lead to your death. Additionally Kerry and VVAW did meet with the North Vietnamese leaders in Paris.



Again it made it more dangerous because when someone believes an enemy is weakened, they will fight more strongly, devote more resources, be able to recruit better, etc.

It's easy to understand this in any other context. People don't stay around for the end of a professional sporting even that is a blow out. People don't send resources or volunteer for a candidate who is down 20 points in the polls, etc.

Additionally it is easy to see how when you are in a desperate situation, where you will need of people back home to get out of the hell hole you are in, and where you are unable to defend yourself that it can be beyond terrible, disheartening to see some guy with political intentions claiming you are a war criminal and turning the very people who are supposed to help and support you and most of all, get you you home against you. Instead of wanting you home, they are claiming you deserve it since you are a murderer, rapist and baby killer.



Please do more than make an unsubstanciated allegation and I won't have to question your intentions.

Nick

Looks like we're fighting the vietnam war again.

So our choices are two-fold.

A) A political opportunist

-or-

B) Draft dodging coke head cheerleader

This piece of propaganda has been brought to you by the lovely citizens of Freerepublic.

The guy is accusing Kerry of reminding him that Vietnam was a horribly unethical war.

The truth is bad, right?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Note kids, witty one liners in the coffee house may constitute having a life on the series Friends, but please do not mistake them for intellectual discourse or even having a life in reality.

This message has been brought to you by people who don't consider killing the messenger a means of discrediting the message.

Nick

You know I was thinking the same thing about Bush after watching Fahrenheit 911!

You keep scraping that barrel! There's got to be something down there!

Zing!

So what is the message from this journalist ("I am a journalist, a serious one. No please trust me. I am an investigating journalist. You don´t get to call yourself investigating unless you are serious. I am serious, I really am!!!")

If you think a war is wrong, you are gonna lose it and any day it is prolonged it costs lives you keep shut because your words could be twisted to be used in your enemies propaganda against your POWs. Your enemy might be fanatic hacks that tortures your countrymen against all rules but he gets all his justification from you and he would let your countrymen go if it wasn t for your words. And you are the real enemy if you are trying to prevent more solders to be sent into harms way.

Oh yeah it made two more points

1) No americans didn´t do atrocities in Vietnam because a) they shot at SAM sites from certain angles and b) because a soldiers wife tells us her husband would never do such a thing. Thats the proof you need.

2) Kerrys speech prolonged the war for two years because some soldiers say so. Trust me!

I am really disappointed if thats the october surprise

This coming from someone with almost 5,000 "brilliant" posts. Yeah, I don't have a life.

". . . . wait a second? was I, and my fellow American Marines as guilty of those atrocities that John Kerry was guilty of committing? . . . "

--nuff watched

. . . . Crapola-orama


More of the same . . . what else would you expect? . . . and no, F-911 is biased but at least its not stupid and biased

OMFG!!!!

How did I get over 4000 posts!!!!!!!??????!!!

I wasn't even watching

Haha. It is dumb. But my point is that it's also dumb to say that speaking out against a controversial war is treason. One of the great mistakes of the Repubs since Clinton has been the criminalization of politics. It's not only wrong, but it's also bad politics - people don't like it. So just think of it as me looking at for you.

Ha, you've hit on Nick's ploy as of late. If something is said which he disapproves of then you can expect a response which includes one or more of the following: non-intellectual, intellectual (presented in a negative sense), rant--as in you are ranting or some such, or a few other select ad homonym rebuttals. Mix in a dash of Bush's talking points, support for the impeccable Mr. O'Neill, Kerry the war criminal, taxes are bad while huge welfare state programs instituted under Bush are good. And finally, spritz with a made up figure and ther you have it, a Trumptman special response. Garnish with the word 'idiot' for color.

As far as the flick goes, it a sad sad 'documentary' only slightly worse than F911.

Hahahaha..... and yet you keep posting and are now over a thousand yourself.


What you don't know is that at 5,000 posts, you get a super secret surprise, that and I am being paid by the RNC to keep all these liberal types at home typing on their computers instead of out interacting with real people.

And in your case.... IT WORKED!

Bwahahahahaha....


Nick

Or I could just post some utter nonsense and end it with Good day sir.....

Nick

One right wing kook's utter nonsense is the rest of the countries' version of the truth I guess.

The funny thing is Trumpt all you have to do is tack the good day sir onto one of your posts for it to be as much nonsense as you make my posts out to be.

Wow, I'm over 1,000 and you're almost at 5,000. Yeah, you can talk. I don't doubt your second "job" considering your main job probably doesn't pay much.

The super secret surprise must be a "Get a Life" card. You've almost earned it.
Good luck in your quest for 10,000 posts. I have absolutely no doubt you'll reach and pass that "milestone" quite soon.

You're a crook. You're a cheat and a swindler. How could you do a thing like this, raise up a little boy's hopes and then dash all his dreams to pieces? You're an inhuman monster.

So shines a good deed in a weary world. Charlie . .
. my boy . . . You won! You did it! You did it! I knew
you would; I just knew you would.

So does this mean you and faust are giving me the chocolate factory since faust has the Wonka line?

You know you want to lick my everlasting candy can and spit in six different colors bunge.

Nick

trumpt, did you really mean to call yourself an everlasting candy-ass?
or am I just parsing your words?

Could you quote where he accused "the entire armed services of war attrocities"?

I will even link to his testimony for you.

Here's the best you'll be able to do,
I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

No one there is specifically accused neither is their a blanket condemnation of all soldiers. That is fabricated to further a political agenda fueled by self-righteous outrage.



Ok, so can you say anything that would show that Kerry was conspiring to make the lives of POWs worse?



That could mean anything. Any kind of protest. Using your distorted logic anyone who ever said anything negative about the war was making getting out of Vietnam "a high-risk adventure".

This is, of course, absolute lunacy.

Kerry was testifying before Congress. Say what you will about Fonda, that's different. Kerry served honorably, was a decorated veteran and related the stories of other veterans in testimony before congress.

Another thing that bothered me about the film (but probably filled some hearts with pride), was the veteran who did his best to dismiss My Lai, imply that the punishment of Lt. Calley was adequate and throw in "We're Americans, we don't do this."

I hate to break the news, but we're Americans and we did that, and we do things like this. We are not made up of flawless or even near-flawless moral fiber. Stop this insane bullshit that Americans are morally superior creatures.

Our "benevolence" is 100% the product of economic and military might. When we're nice, it's because we can afford to be, when the shit hits the fan we're just as nasty as anyone else would be.

"...but he was punished!" (referring to Lt. Calley)
Fucking DISGUSTING!

Well, what do you think the enemy did?

They took every tidbit of that 'public' testimony and used it for their advantage, that's what.

And that is Kerrys fault?

Like its his fault that the republicans doesn´t understand the word global.

And off course Bush is to blame for this: http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai...tateofthe.html

So, when asked by Congress, he should have held his tounge and lied?

well, by this "logic" (and i use that term loosely), then anyone who has testified against military personnel in the abu ghraib prison scandal can never run for office and should probably be thrown in jail for the rest of their lives, because, hey, those insurgents sure hate us now more than ever... and it's the soldiers' faults for testifying.

yeah, right.

NaplesX:


And?

No, I think telling what he knew was fact, instead of unsubstantiated accusations, would have been fair, and would have given the enemy less to work with.

He described the atrocities as basically widespread and accepted among the US military leadership. Talk about playing right into the hands of the VC. Kerry is a smart guy, are you saying that he didn't know what his words would do? He did.

Hoooooooold on.

So you reckon that the well-documented and widely accepted atrocities commited by America forces in Vietnam were totally unknown by US military leadership.

Fucking hell.

The US isn't a bad country. But it's done bad things, just like every other country on the planet. The dangerous thing is when you refuse to accept it.