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Oh look, CBS again - Page 4

post #121 of 148
giant check your PM

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #122 of 148
Strong stuff, that will just be seen as proof of the liberal media conspiracy, by the usual wingnut conspirators.
Quote:
The strongest evidence to date indicates that conventional explosives missing from Iraq's Al-Qaqaa installation disappeared after the United States had taken control of Iraq.

Barrels inside the Al-Qaqaa facility appear on videotape shot by ABC television affiliate KSTP of St. Paul, Minn., which had a crew embedded with the 101st Airborne Division when it passed through Al-Qaqaa on April 18, 2003 nine days after Baghdad fell.

Experts who have studied the images say the barrels on the tape contain the high explosive HMX, and the universal markings on the barrels are clear that these are highly dangerous explosives.

"I talked to a former inspector who's a colleague of mine, and he confirmed that, indeed, these pictures look just like what he remembers seeing inside those bunkers," said David Albright, president of the Institute for Science and International Security in Washington.

The barrels were found inside sealed bunkers, which American soldiers are seen on the videotape cutting through. Inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency sealed the bunkers where the explosives were kept just before the war began.

"The seal's critical," Albright said. "The fact that there's a photo of what looks like an IAEA seal means that what's behind those doors is HMX. They only sealed bunkers that had HMX in them."

After the bunkers were opened, the 101st was not ordered to secure the facility. A senior officer told ABC News the division would not have had nearly enough soldiers to do so.

It remains unclear how much HMX was at the facility, but what does seem clear is that the U.S. military opened the bunkers at Al-Qaqaa and left them unguarded. Since then, the material has disappeared.

BREAKING NEWS - Drudge has evidence to suggest that ABC faked the video....
oops, sorry, getting ahead of myself!
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post #123 of 148
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Amazingly, ABC has found video footage of munitions--HMX--at the site in question. Guess what nat-says, the video was taken on April-18th...

See for yourselves: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=206847&page=1



A soldier looking into an explosives container.

What excuse is the Bush administration going to come up with now?
post #124 of 148
Quote:
Originally posted by bborofka
What excuse is the Bush administration going to come up with now?

Well, they trotted out Rudy Guliani to blame the troops not the civilian leaders. Watch this http://mywebpages.comcast.net/atrios/saintrudy.wmv

TPM has a review of the situation as well http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/arc..._24.php#003825
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #125 of 148
Check out the reaction of Shaw's superiors at the DoD:
Quote:
Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other senior Pentagon officials distanced themselves from comments in the Washington Times by Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John Shaw about the explosives...

... senior Pentagon officials told CNN they have seen no intelligence information that would corroborate Shaw's assessment.

Asked about Shaw's comments during an interview on WABC radio in New York, Rumsfeld said, "No, I have no information on that at all and cannot validate that even slightly."

Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita said Shaw was not speaking for the Pentagon and that his views were not those of senior defense officials. DiRita also said that Shaw's superiors were talking to him about his comments.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ves/index.html
post #126 of 148
David Kay's comments on Aaron Brown's show:
Quote:
Aaron Brown: We saw at the top of the program there is new information to factor in. Pretty conclusive to our eye. So we'll sort through this now. Take the politics out of it and try and deal with facts with former head UN weapons inspector, US weapons inspector, David Kay. David, its nice to see you.

David Kay: Good to be with you, Aaron.


AB: I don't know how better to do this than to show you some pictures have you explain to me what they are or are not. Okay? First what Ill just call the seal. And tell me if this is an IAEA seal on that bunker at that munitions dump?


DK: Aaron, about as certain as I can be looking at a picture, not physically holding it which, obviously, I would have preferred to have been there, that is an IAEA seal. I've never seen anything else in Iraq in about 15 years of being in Iraq and around Iraq that was other than an IAEA seal of that shape.


AB: Was there anything else at the facility that would have been under IAEA seal?


DK: Absolutely nothing. It was the HMX, RDX, the two high explosives.


AB: OK now, Ill take a look at barrels here for a second. You can tell me what they tell you. They, obviously, to us just show us a bunch of barrels. You'll see it somewhat differently.


DK: Well, it's interesting. There were three foreign suppliers to Iraq of this explosive in the 1980s. One of them used barrels like this, and inside the barrels a bag. HMX is in powder form because you actually use it to shape a spherical lens that is used to create the triggering device for nuclear weapons. And particularly on the videotape, which is actually better than the still photos, as the soldier dips into it, that's either HMX or RDX. I don't know of anything else in al Qaqaa that was in that form.


AB: Let me ask you then, David, the question I asked Jamie. In regard to the dispute about whether that stuff was there when the Americans arrived, is it game, set, match? Is that part of the argument now over?


DK: Well, at least with regard to this one bunker, and the film shows one seal, one bunker, one group of soldiers going through, and there were others there that were sealed. With this one, I think it is game, set, and match. There was HMX, RDX in there. The seal was broken. And quite frankly, to me the most frightening thing is not only was the seal broken, lock broken, but the soldiers left after opening it up. I mean, to rephrase the so-called pottery barn rule. If you open an arms bunker, you own it. You have to provide security.


AB: I'm -- that raises a number of questions. Let me throw out one. It suggests that maybe they just didn't know what they had?


DK: I think you're quite likely they didn't know they had HMX, which speaks to lack of intelligence given troops moving through that area, but they certainly knew they had explosives. And to put this in context, I think it's important, this loss of 360 tons, but Iraq is awash with tens of thousands of tons of explosives right now in the hands of insurgents because we did not provide the security when we took over the country.


AB: Could you -- Im trying to stay out of the realm of politics. I'm not sure you can.


DK: So am I.


AB: I know. It's a little tricky here. But, is there any -- is there any reason not to have anticipated the fact that there would be bunkers like this, explosives like this, and a need to secure them?


DK: Absolutely not. For example, al Qaqaa was a site of Gerald Bull's super gun project. It was a team of mine that discovered the HMX originally in 1991. That was one of the most well-documented explosive sites in all of Iraq. The other 80 or so major ammunition storage points were also well documented. Iraq had, and it's a frightening number, two-thirds of the total conventional explosives that the US has in its entire inventory. The country was an armed camp.


AB: David, as quickly as you can, because this just came up in the last hour, as dangerous as this stuff is, this would not be described as a WMD, correct?


DK: Oh absolutely not.


AB: Thank you.


DK: And, in fact, the loss of it is not a proliferation issue.


AB: Okay. It's just dangerous and its out there and by your thinking it should have been secured.


DK: Well look, it was used to bring the Pan Am flight down. It's a very dangerous explosive, particularly in the hands of terrorists.


AB: David, thank you for walking me through this. I appreciate it, David Kay the former head US weapons inspector in Iraq.
post #127 of 148
Spin it baby, spin it! "Class act" Giuliani already launched spin version 6.0 earlier today. Unbelievable but true....don't blame the President...blame the troops!!
Quote:
"No matter how you try to blame it on the president, the actual responsibility for it really would be for the troops that were there," Giuliani said on NBC's "Today" show.

At this point I'm sure the White House was yelling at Rudy to shut up and "spin" or justify what he had just said. Nope. He kept going.
Quote:
"Did they search carefully enough? Didn't they search carefully enough?"

lol Can you picture folks at the WH immediately reaching for bottles of Advil?

Of course, later on, Guiliani issues a stament through the Bush/Cheney campaign. The spin? He was taken "out of context." LMAO.
post #128 of 148
So, to sum up (so far):

It never happened.
It happened, but securing weapons sites is hard work.
It happened, but, shit, Iraq is awash in explosives, what's the big deal?
The Russians got them.
Saddam stashed 'em during the run up to the invasion.
Well, anyway, somebody got them before we got there.
O.K., it's a fuck-up, but saying so is a slap in the face of our brave fighting boys.
O.K., it's a fuck-up, but blame our brave fighting boys.
Can we go back to "it never happened" yet?

God help us if Kerry, that equivocating flip-flopper, gets in the White House!
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #129 of 148
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Spin it baby, spin it! "Class act" Giuliani already launched spin version 6.0 earlier today. Unbelievable but true....don't blame the President...blame the troops!!

Whatever happened to supporting our troops? Isn't Rudy aiding the terra-wrists, by dissing the tr00ps?
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post #130 of 148
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Whatever happened to supporting our troops? Isn't Rudy aiding the terra-wrists, by dissing the tr00ps?

SDW? Scott? You're the "pro-troops" guys here. What do you think about Rudy's comments?

And what the hell ever happened to "the buck stops here".

Bush: "It's not my fault. Abu Ghraib is not my fault. The explosives loss is not my fault. The intelligence failure about weapons of mass destruction is not my fault. Now watch this drive."
post #131 of 148
"Read My Lips:
It's Not My Fault"

(Daddy taught him that one)
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post #132 of 148
The Bush team has a what's the right word? truly Orwellian talent for saying and doing ghastly things and then turning right around and claiming that it's really John Kerry who's guilty of saying and doing those same ghastly things. A few examples:
  • Run the biggest deficit in modern history and then complain that Kerry has a "tax gap."
  • Have Dick Cheney do everything but tell voters that they'll be forcibly converted to Islam unless they vote for Bush, and then castigate Kerry for "scare mongering."
  • Get your surrogates to explain on national TV that the al-Qaqaa fiasco was actually the fault of troops on the ground, not the president, and then get out on the stump and claim that Kerry is the one "denigrating the action of our troops in the field."
  • Gain fame even among your own supporters for relentlessly putting ideology and partisanship ahead of facts on the ground, and then give a speech charging that Kerry puts "politics ahead of facts."

You almost have to admire the chutzpah behind this campaign strategy, don't you?

Almost.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #133 of 148
It may be time to stick a fork in this one, apparently the American military removed 200+ tons of materials from that site.

Drudge is teasing this right now.

This may REALLRY be the last, last, last, last word on this, but I doubt it. There is so much FUD surrounding this story from all sides that it may be unusable.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #134 of 148
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
It may be time to stick a fork in this one, apparently the American military removed 200+ tons of materials from that site.

Drudge is teasing this right now.

This may REALLRY be the last, last, last, last word on this, but I doubt it. There is so much FUD surrounding this story from all sides that it may be unusable.

Here, it's on Fox too. Try reading the first two paragraphs. The explosives are not accounted for--period!!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137017,00.html

Munitions does not equal high power explosives. Munitions are bullets, bombs, and other assorted nastiness. Also, note the phrase "...munititions and military material..." What constitutes military material? Tanks are military material and they weigh quite a bit. Cans of coffee can be considered military material and at 35# a can... They are spinning their fuch-up and you chomed down hard as the lure went past. They went fishing and caught a Fox, a Drudge, and a DMZ.

PS: even if you buy the Fox/Drudge drivel then we still have 177 tons unaccounted for.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #135 of 148
Why oh why would they try putting on a press conference. It only insures that this story stays in the media for another couple days. Stupid.

Mars, my bitches!
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #136 of 148
This is a statement by ONE soldier, made at a Pentagon press conference, while accompanied by a Pentagon spokesman.

Pure spin - no wonder only Drudge and Fox are reporting it so far.

Quote:
Pearson, accompanied by Dirita, appeared at a Pentagon news conference to say it was his mission to go the facility and clear material from the base but he could not say what percentage of the material were explosives._He said he was not an explosives expert but instead said his main mission is to clear possibly dangerous material from bases to make them safe for U.S. forces.

This is the guy who moves stuff out of soldier's way - not someone in charge of securing weapons from looters and thieves.
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post #137 of 148
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Here, it's on Fox too. Try reading the first two paragraphs. The explosives are not accounted for--period!!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137017,00.html

Munitions does not equal high power explosives. Munitions are bullets, bombs, and other assorted nastiness. Also, note the phrase "...munititions and military material..." What constitutes military material? Tanks are military material and they weigh quite a bit. Cans of coffee can be considered military material and at 35# a can... They are spinning their fuch-up and you chomed down hard as the lure went past. They went fishing and caught a Fox, a Drudge, and a DMZ.

PS: even if you buy the Fox/Drudge drivel then we still have 177 tons unaccounted for.

Looks like I picked a bad week to stop making observations.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #138 of 148
I gotta quite coming to this website.


We know the IAEA did not check all of the stuff. Yes alot, but not all. They say this.

We have activity at the site from sat photos at the qaqaa site.

We have the good guys on tape looking at the bad guys RDX, etc.

Sooooooo, if those three statements are true, then we know that AT LEAST some of the bad guy's stuff was still there.

Then we know 14 days later it was gone.

We know there were looters and that the site was unsecured for a time, but we also know what it would take to clean it out -- number of trucks etc.

Now we have the good guys saying that they took 200+ tonnes out.

If that's true, they got most -- but the looters probably got some. If it were pure willy-nilly looting, Id be willing to bet they would take what looked familiar, which would not be powered HDX (or whatever the powder was) which would explain why the RDX, etc. hasn't shown up in any attacks.

Unrelated note:

Those paritcular bunkers also showed up as destroyed in a nov 2003 sat photo -- what's up with that?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #139 of 148
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Now we have the good guys saying that they took 200+ tonnes out.

You have ONE good guy saying that, and that he doesn't know how much of that was explosives. It could be 199.9 tons of MREs and combat boots, plus a couple hundred POUNDS of the explosives, for all we know. Or maybe no explosives at all...

"Yes, we took stuff out of there. Stuff was definitely taken by us. We don't know what stuff we took, but we took stuff. Here's a soldier who's willing to say at a press conference that he took stuff, but he doesn't know what he took. Please don't ask why we never mentioned this before now".
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post #140 of 148
Watching all this flip-flopping by bush folks has basically numbed me to anything they say from here on out.
post #141 of 148
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Now we have the good guys saying that they took 200+ tonnes out.

If that's true, they got most

That's not what they said. THis is:
Quote:
But those 250 tons were not located under the seal of the International Atomic Energy Agency -- as the missing high-grade explosives had been -- and Pentagon spokesman Larry Di Rita could not definitely say whether they were part of the missing 377 tons.

Maj. Austin Pearson, speaking at a press conference at the Pentagon, said his team removed 250 tons of TNT, plastic explosives, detonation cords, and white phosporous rounds on April 13, 2003 -- 10 days after U.S. forces first reached the Al Qaqaa site.

"I did not see any IAEA seals at any of the locations we went into. I was not looking for that," Pearson said.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...ves.5839c.html

Please don't post falsehoods. Thanks.
post #142 of 148
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
That's not what they said. THis is:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...ves.5839c.html

Please don't post falsehoods. Thanks.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside a spinning enigma.

I hear Amelia Earhart and D.B. Cooper are handling the press updates from here on out.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #143 of 148
Actually I just had a thought -- hey it happens -- on the bunkers destroyed almost certainly after they were emptied (offically or not).

It goes like this:

Midsummer the Airforce tells the Army to get the hell out the qaqaa area because they finally got the IAEA memo.

and


BOOM


sounds like an episode of Red vs Blue.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #144 of 148
Top ten reasons to blow up empty Qaqaa bunkers:

10. Slow day in Sadr City
9. Gulf War 1 reenactment
8. Finally got IAEA memo
7. Didn't get Army memo
6. One word: mice
5. Weren't moving faster than the missles
4. Too big to move
3. Clashed with period architicture
2. Small disagreement with commanding officer
1. Couldn't ignore life-size rooftop mural of Richard Armitage and Madiline Albright making love.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #145 of 148
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #146 of 148
Global Security Watch has recently posted an appraisal of the Pentagon's 2003 satellite photos. The conclusion, the satellite photos may not be the correct bunkers. Leave it to Bush admin/Pentagon to obfuscate an issue with non-evidence. http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/wo...a-imagery4.htm
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #147 of 148
Thanks for the heads-up.
post #148 of 148
come on you guys, it was the marsians from the internetS that got the "Nucelar" weapons from there; they formed an alliance with Russia to push a button and start 'hating our freedom'.

It wasn't our fault, we just broke the seals and left just them there. Why do you blame me for being the commander-in-chief of the troops, blame the troops for being the commanders-in-the-ground. But when good stuff happens (good, as in, another scotch Laura... oh yeah... now i'm supposed to be a compassionate conserve-ative...), praise me, not the troops, 'cause I'm the commander-in-chief!

The never-opinion-changing, and always-going-the-same-old-shitty-road in Iraq commander-in-chief, who could care less that the policy must adopt to the situation in the ground, and not the other way around type of guy.

God chose me to be like this! (...)
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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