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Osama's back..... - Page 3

post #81 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
I saw Kerry and Bush come down from each their planes and say almost the exact same thing in the same order at CNN. If you have access to the online video at CNN try check it out. There is no doubt that one called the other and agreed to do it that way.

TPM comment: Which of these two statements sounds like it comes from the stronger leader?

John Kerry: In response to this tape from Osama bin Laden, let me make it clear, crystal clear. As Americans, we are absolutely united in our determination to hunt down and destroy Osama bin Laden and the terrorists. They are barbarians. And I will stop at absolutely nothing to hunt down, capture or kill the terrorists wherever they are, whatever it takes. Period.

George W. Bush: Earlier today I was informed of the tape that is now being analyzed by America's intelligence community. Let me make this very clear: Americans will not be intimidated or influenced by an enemy of our country. I'm sure Senator Kerry agrees with this. I also want to say to the American people that we're at war with these terrorists and I am confident that we will prevail.
post #82 of 129
Oh, and Bush guys call osama tape 'a little gift.'

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-212149c.html

Isn't it wonderful that they want osama to directly influence US politics?
post #83 of 129
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
TPM comment: Which of these two statements sounds like it comes from the stronger leader?

John Kerry: In response to this tape from Osama bin Laden, let me make it clear, crystal clear. As Americans, we are absolutely united in our determination to hunt down and destroy Osama bin Laden and the terrorists. They are barbarians. And I will stop at absolutely nothing to hunt down, capture or kill the terrorists wherever they are, whatever it takes. Period.

George W. Bush: Earlier today I was informed of the tape that is now being analyzed by America's intelligence community. Let me make this very clear: Americans will not be intimidated or influenced by an enemy of our country. I'm sure Senator Kerry agrees with this. I also want to say to the American people that we're at war with these terrorists and I am confident that we will prevail.

The Kerry quote sounds ok but it isn't true is it ?

America is clearly not united in such a determination - far from it in the White House. That's why Osama is on the loose and able to send such tapes at will.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #84 of 129
We americans are united in it. It's just the nuts in the bush admin that apparently have other priorities.
post #85 of 129
Kerrys answer was better...... George did wander off what should have been his #1 Focus. Kerry isnt going to be so nice. He didnt get the silver star and bronze for nothing. The extremist republican zealots would like us to think they just hand those things out to whoever wants one.... He got it for killing the enemy thank you. Lets elect a president who is in touch with reality. George's 4 years have not impressed and since he has no idea what a VETO is we need a president to put the brakes on congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #86 of 129
Oh come on. They said the exact same thing
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #87 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Too bad W didn't give that ragheaded c**ksucker the pleasure. GWB knew exactly what he was doing.

I ask again: Did you just call OBL a "raghead"?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #88 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Oh come on. They said the exact same thing

I think there's a good chance that they talked to each other and decided that they wouldn't let Osama sway the election at all. So they just said the same thing and tried to put the thing to rest.
post #89 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Oh, and Bush guys call osama tape 'a little gift.'

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-212149c.html

Isn't it wonderful that they want osama to directly influence US politics?

Its you who are using it that way. Its you who is is trying to spin the tape your way

That article doesn´t say the GOP will USE Osamas tape in any way. It say that its an external factor that works for Bush, no matter if he use active or not. Just like new unemployment figures work for Kerry no matter if he use them or not.

And finally. I am so tired that "my side" use arguments like yours. Its just not a honest debate. Its natural to expect it from an opponent of ones views (thats how the mind works) but when its so blatant from democratic leaning posters I can´t´help getting disappointed. In the discussion between honest and strategic arguments by the two sides this shows that it isn´t one side doing the first and the other doing the second. And that makes the attempt to have a fair exchange of ideas futile.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #90 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Its you who are using it that way. Its you who is is trying to spin the tape your way

That article doesn´t say the GOP will USE Osamas tape in any way. It say that its an external factor that works for Bush, no matter if he use active or not. Just like new unemployment figures work for Kerry no matter if he use them or not.

And finally. I am so tired that "my side" use arguments like yours. Its just not a honest debate. Its natural to expect it from an opponent of ones views (thats how the mind works) but when its so blatant from democratic leaning posters I can´t´help getting disappointed. In the discussion between honest and strategic arguments by the two sides this shows that it isn´t one side doing the first and the other doing the second. And that makes the attempt to have a fair exchange of ideas futile.

Get over it . . .

when 'their side' says quite blatantly that they want the American people to be thinking 'Terrorism for the last four days" of this election, what they are saying is they want us to be afraid for the next four days of this election . . . that is disgusting. Any opportunistic bunch of fear-mongers like that don't deserve to be president or in power at all.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #91 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Get over it . . .

when 'their side' says quite blatantly that they want the American people to be thinking 'Terrorism for the last four days" of this election, what they are saying is they want us to be afraid for the next four days of this election . . . that is disgusting. Any opportunistic bunch of fear-mongers like that don't deserve to be president or in power at all.

That wasn´t what I was addressing but if you want ignore what I wrote please feel free to do so and let the debate go even further down south.

Of course they want you to think terrorism and be afraid about that because its where Bush has an advantage in the perception of the american people (In reality his policy will make us all less secure on the long haul but thats for another discussion).

And of course Kerry wants you to think unemployment, lack of health care etc. and let you be afraid of that because thats where he is strongest in the eyes of the population.

In that game noone is better than the other. I just think if you peel all the rhetoric and strategy away Kerrys policy is better for US and the world. But right now I can´t have other feelings than disgust for the process and discussions leading up to the election of the leader of the worlds second largest "democracy"
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #92 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Its you who are using it that way. Its you who is is trying to spin the tape your way

"little gift" were his words, not mine. I don't need to spin it any one way or the other. He said the osama tape is a 'little gift.'

Another quote from the article:
Quote:
"We want people to think 'terrorism' for the last four days," said a Bush-Cheney campaign official. "And anything that raises the issue in people's minds is good for us."

They might as well send him a thank you note.

Sorry, anders, but you are just wrong. Not least of the reasons is that you've bought into the new illusion of empirical relativism in large scale global events, thus making you believe that the facts all have two sides and therefore my position on them gives you some sort of clue about what I think about politics. In case you are wondering, I am big pro-free market, pro-supplyside ethically but pro gov't spending/demand side for real effect, pro-pinochet, socially libertarian. Meaning I'm probably more politically right than the people that pretend to be on AO.

Finally, let's return to what appears to be the center of your problem with my post:
Quote:
That article doesn´t say the GOP will USE Osamas tape in any way.

Really? Neither did I. So what are you attacking me about?
post #93 of 129
After all, can't you understand why an american would be pissed about this administration being grateful for the osama tape when it was this administration's crap that is the reasons he's still alive?
post #94 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
That wasn´t what I was addressing but if you want ignore what I wrote please feel free to do so and let the debate go even further down south.

Of course they want you to think terrorism and be afraid about that because its where Bush has an advantage in the perception of the american people (In reality his policy will make us all less secure on the long haul but thats for another discussion).

And of course Kerry wants you to think unemployment, lack of health care etc. and let you be afraid of that because thats where he is strongest in the eyes of the population.

In that game noone is better than the other. I just think if you peel all the rhetoric and strategy away Kerrys policy is better for US and the world. But right now I can´t have other feelings than disgust for the process and discussions leading up to the election of the leader of the worlds second largest "democracy"

Its hard for me to think that concern over the outright misshandling of domestic politcies is fear-mongering.

I have heard this claim from right-wing oriented speakers a lot in the recent past: "Kerry is scarring you about jobs and the economy"
What I find so absurd about that is the fact that that attitude is not only wrong it is a bad attempt to stear people away from the real attempt by hte Rove machine to utilize fear as a campaign strategy . . .

Concern for better domestic policies is not fear mongering: thankfulness that OBL released a tape threatening more attacks IS fear-mongering.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #95 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
After all, can't you understand why an american would be pissed about this administration being grateful for the osama tape when it was this administration's crap that is the reasons he's still alive?

Yeah, it has nothing to do with chance or that he is a good evader.

Maybe they are grateful that Americans are remembering what the WOT is all about, remembering 9/11. I have never seen an act so horrendous forgotten so quickly. If Kerry wins tomorrow, it will be a distant memory, much like pearl harbor is now.

I am very saddened by the fact that 3000 people are so willingly swept under the rug, there families told that 9/11 was just a political act, not to be taken too seriously.
post #96 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Yeah, it has nothing to do with chance or that he is a good evader.

No, it doesn't. It has to do with a) rumsfeld's failed experiments and b) the bush admin's diversion of resources to Iraq.
Quote:
I have never seen an act so horrendous forgotten so quickly.

Pretty shocking, isn't it? That's one of the reasons so many people are pissed about Iraq.
post #97 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
No, it doesn't. It has to do with a) rumsfeld's failed experiments and b) the bush admin's diversion of resources to Iraq.

Pretty shocking, isn't it? That's one of the reasons so many people are pissed about Iraq.

Both of these statements are stupid and not very well thought out.

As for your second, I am a bit confused. Why would Iraq cause people to forget about 9/11? Can't you or your friends remember 9/11 while a conflict wages elsewhere. You see if that is why, then why are you not crying out for those conflicts in Sudan, Algeria, Nigeria, Sri Lanka, and Columbia to be ended as they are also a diversion to the WOT? US resources are being used there to help end those conflicts also. Do you want to hazard a guess at death toll as a result of those conflicts?

Really, a lot of conflicts and US intervention can be considered a diversion from previous wars and solutions, if we are to use your logic. Shouldn't we have finished Somalia before moving on to anywhere else. Go back even further, shouldn't we have finished Vietnam before moving on to something else.

And now that I think about it, there were some that thought that Afghanistan would bankrupt the country and would last decades. So really, even if Iraq takes a few years longer than expected, it is way better than what was predicted, just for Afghanistan. Wasn't it those same people that predicted 10's of thousands of Coalition deaths in the Iraqi deserts as a result of Chem/Bio? I would have to say that things are progressing much better in both places. Two brutal regimes for less then the price of one, no?

The whole Afghan situation also proves the 'diversion' theory wrong, IMO. We accomplished the mission there quickly and decisively. The Afghans have conducted a fair election and have a democracy in place. The Taliban is being methodically mopped up and their future looks good. For being a diversion, Iraq has not stopped progress in Afghanistan, IMO.

This argument falls apart after a bit of reasoning, IMO.
post #98 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
The whole Afghan situation also proves the 'diversion' theory wrong, IMO.

It's not a theory. It's a fact.
post #99 of 129
I have heard an interesting interview of a french communication advisor who used to work for Bush senior.

His opinion was, that this tape will change nothing. The shift between Bush and Kerry supporter is too huge :

- For Bush supporter this video prove that the security under Bush is fine : OBL canno't attack anymore US, he can just make harmless video.

- For Kerry supporter or Bush haters, this video prove that OBL is still alive and in a good shape contrary to what have claimed Bush admin. It's a proof that Bush's adimin have failed to catch him and punish him.
post #100 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
As for your second, I am a bit confused.

Giant was making a joke at your expense. It was a pretty clever one, too.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #101 of 129
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I have heard an interesting interview of a french communication advisor who used to work for Bush senior.

His opinion was, that this tape will change nothing. The shift between Bush and Kerry supporter is too huge :

- For Bush supporter this video prove that the security under Bush is fine : OBL canno't attack anymore US, he can just make harmless video.

- For Kerry supporter or Bush haters, this video prove that OBL is still alive and in a good shape contrary to what have claimed Bush admin. It's a proof that Bush's adimin have failed to catch him and punish him.

I think that's pretty much spot-on. Even Fox News are calling it even and I heard the same interview I think - he said also that any more 'surprises' wouldn't change much. Basically it didn't hurt Bush but he didn't gain much from it either.

One thing though - those who say that this tape means America is safe are being very, very foolish and very, very hypocritical.

If it's safe then the WOT is over. But it isn't - painting OBL as neutralised is very dangerous (for them) imo.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #102 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's not a theory. It's a fact.

What no names?

Are you feeling OK?
post #103 of 129
Just out of curiosity, when was the last time I called you a name?
post #104 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Just out of curiosity, when was the last time I called you a name?

It may have been a while, now that you bring it up. I am not sure how long it has been since you impugned my education and intelligence and/or motives, but hey who's counting. I figured it was par for this course. Maybe that has changed. Cool beans.

You know reading this thread has been a pleasant surprise as far as your posts are concerned. Good to see that things are working out in 'civilized conversation' arena. I may have to reevaluate my odium for you.

What happened? If I may be so bold.
post #105 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
It may have been a while, now that you bring it up.

OK, and when was the last time you called someone a name, like "Mr. Poopy-head", "know-it-all liberal leprechaun", "hind hovel" (actual quotes) or any variation thereof? A day or two?

In other words, people who live in glass houses...
post #106 of 129
Naples X and Giant : I am happy to see some civil talks around here. I will be glad if it continues that way.
post #107 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
OK, and when was the last time you called someone a name, like "Mr. Poopy-head" (actual quote) or any variation thereof?

In other words, people who live in glass houses...

Come now. You mean to tell me that "Mr. Poopy-head" (actual quote) is a big insult in your neighborhood?

I hope not. You would hardly be able to turn on your TV, let alone watch this election cycle, if that was the case.

Forget watching BET or even MTV....

I usually use "Poopy Face" or "Poopy Pants" and rarely "Poopy Head". That is like the worst. The "Face" is bad, but the whole "Head"... that is BAD.

However, I could tone it down a bit with something like "excrement nose" or "Squishy Drawers" or something.
post #108 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Naples X and Giant : I am happy to see some civil talks around here. I will be glad if it continues that way.

I would, too, and that's why I reported his post, powerdoc.
post #109 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
I would, too, and that's why I reported his post, powerdoc.

I am happy to see that we both agree. Let's expect that a third person will soon agree to.
post #110 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Yeah, it has nothing to do with chance or that he is a good evader.

Maybe they are grateful that Americans are remembering what the WOT is all about, remembering 9/11. I have never seen an act so horrendous forgotten so quickly. If Kerry wins tomorrow, it will be a distant memory, much like pearl harbor is now.

I am very saddened by the fact that 3000 people are so willingly swept under the rug, there families told that 9/11 was just a political act, not to be taken too seriously.

What we have here is an excellent example of righteous indignation being used to conceal, what's known in common parlance as a big steaming pile of bullshit. Just like your president, you need to learn that just spouting words doesn't make them true.

So put up or shut up. On what do you base this claim that 9/11 has been forgotten so quickly? That those who perished have been swept under the rug? Who's forgotten? Who swept them under the rug? Who said it was a political act not to be taken seriously?

You're making some fairly damning criticisms of your fellow country men and women in this post. I think you should at least provide some evidence to back up your comments.

AFAIC, posts like these are far worse than any ad hominen I've ever seen. You are breathtakingly insulting to your fellow Americans without anymore evidence than your own precious outrage to back up your comments. As if that isn't bad enough, you then use the deaths of 3,000 of your fellow citizens to bolster what was a poisonous, hateful opinion all along.

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #111 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I am happy to see that we both agree. Let's expect that a third person will soon agree to.

Read my posts, I am way ahead of you.

To clarify: I also agree.

This has got to be a celebrated day, we AGREE. Much like the celebration scene at the end of "Return of the Jedi". I am picturing Ewoks running amuck.

Picture:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/spe...g/movie_bg.jpg
post #112 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I am happy to see that we both agree. Let's expect that a third person will soon agree to.

Sorry Powerdoc I wasn't reading the script while typing my reply.

I stand by every word.
Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #113 of 129
...is hairy.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #114 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by crazychester
Sorry Powerdoc I wasn't reading the script while typing my reply.

I stand by every word.

Well I am not here Crazychester to kill the discussion, but for enhancing civil discussion and to make stop, personal attacks.

Otherwise anyone is free to react to any post, the way she wants

Edited for Crazychester, but was it mandatory to use she instead of he ?
post #115 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
the way he want.

the way she wants.
Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #116 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by crazychester
What we have here is an excellent example of righteous indignation being used to conceal, what's known in common parlance as a big steaming pile of bullshit. Just like your president, you need to learn that just spouting words doesn't make them true.

So put up or shut up. On what do you base this claim that 9/11 has been forgotten so quickly? That those who perished have been swept under the rug? Who's forgotten? Who swept them under the rug? Who said it was a political act not to be taken seriously?

You're making some fairly damning criticisms of your fellow country men and women in this post. I think you should at least provide some evidence to back up your comments.

AFAIC, posts like these are far worse than any ad hominen I've ever seen. You are breathtakingly insulting to your fellow Americans without anymore evidence than your own precious outrage to back up your comments. As if that isn't bad enough, you then use the deaths of 3,000 of your fellow citizens to bolster what was a poisonous, hateful opinion all along.

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

Come on, man. Snap out of it.

CC do you feel the same about Kerry and his insults on those that were protecting your freedoms? Ok so I don't know where you hail from... How about the attacks on all soldiers over the Abu-Graib mess? How about the insults on our black population that assume that they are too stupid to figure out an election ballot? How about the insults that you spew at those who disagree with you or who are on the other side of the political or ideological isle? How about we talk about the litany of insults thrown at the President of the United States, George W. Bush? These are all in the same category, no?

I hope you also express your outrage at those and the many more insulting circumstances. I anxiously await the plethora of new threads on those topics...

In the meantime, I will reply to the question that underlies your angry (and misdirected IMO) post, Namely:

"What is your proof that 9/11 is forgotten or swept under the rug?" (My interpretation)

Look at the news coverage, look at this election. Roughly half of the US population (extrapolated from likely voters) buy into the "kinder gentler" "global test" approach to the WOT as opposed to GWB's approach. I am not implying that either approach is wrong, just that it seems that half of America would rather focus on blaming Bush for the world's woes.

Bush is human, and as such he is prone to mistakes. Much like the rest of us. So I am not certain that blaming him for the reduction in fresh water pigmy shrimp will do anything about terrorism, which is, if you're honest, THE REAL ISSUE of our day.
post #117 of 129
hotlinking images is considered in bad form.
post #118 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Roughly half of the US population (extrapolated from likely voters) buy into the "kinder gentler" "global test" approach to the WOT as opposed to GWB's approach.



I can't believe you actually posted this.
post #119 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Look at the news coverage, look at this election. Roughly half of the US population (extrapolated from likely voters) buy into the "kinder gentler" "global test" approach to the WOT as opposed to GWB's approach.

As opposed to the "tough-guy", "incompetently invade the wrong country and create a haven for terrorists in the bloody aftermath" approach that the other half supports?
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #120 of 129
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
hotlinking images is considered in bad form.

Really? By whom?
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