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Some problems with the Osama tape..

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
Well, some problems I have anyway....

1) Osama praises Atta - but we know that Atta was a womanizing cokehead. This has always been a problem in the 911 official version.

2) He mentions the 19 hijackers. Even more serious imo: we know that some of these are still alive and that (at best) they were using stolen identities. Ok - he doesn't name them so perhaps this is not so glaring a discrepancy.

But, without a shadow of doubt, the Bush admin has lied about 911 - not necessarily to cover up involvement but at least to gain advantage in the WOT. Osama is the one person in the world who would know this for sure and yet he mentions nothing. In fact he is merely repeating the orthodox story but from his angle that is: the angle the orthodox story assigns him.

This is why I have a problem with his speech - to believe it is to accept the 911 orthodoxy and that I cannot do, there is way too much evidence that something is awry.

3) Osama appears to be sitting in a modern TV studio or the like. Certainly he he himself seems not at all like someone on the run and the surroundings would confirm that impression.

4) Language - he seems to have appropriated western language whereas before his idiom was purely Arabic. To be fair, Gilsch has broached this in the other thread so it is probably not significant.

I'm only 80% convinced this is genuine so far. My main objection to its falsity would be that its a tape I'm farily sure Bush wouldn't want people to see.

So if it's a fake who is behind it ? Kerry ? Much of the points are points Kerry would agree with.

I feel the need for a note here: I'm not saying the Dems faked it but if one can consider Bush capable of it (and the Bush camp have faked previous Osama tapes) then one must also consider Kerry as a possibility.

I have no opinion as yet though - it just feels 'not quite right'.
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 23
Everyone knows 9-11 was a Bush ordered mossad/cia plot to justify Bush's imperial war against the peace loving religion of islam to claim the oil for christian domination of the word.
post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Everyone knows 9-11 was a Bush ordered mossad/cia plot to justify Bush's imperial war against the peace loving religion of islam to claim the oil for christian domination of the word.

Err ...sounds like you need to get a tin foil hat or something - is that a right-wing view
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 23
It was ceated in the backroom of a Kinkos in Boston using a digital camcorder and a G5 iMac. Kerrry himself played the role of OBL.

On a serious note, this tape is indeed a far departure from those of the past, but doesn't it make sense that OBL would want it this way? He is a bright guy and he wanted Americans to hear his message. The usual Islamic banter would not have been as effective as this. He even parroted F911! As far has Atta, hasn't OBL praised him before? Perhaps his lifrstyle was not at important to OBL as his success in carrying out the mission?
post #5 of 23
I'm surprised that no one has noticed that prior to this tape, all other tapes were aired in the Mid East first and news of the tape his the U.S. before the tape itself. This tape on the other hand mysteriously shows up in the U.S. and there's no talk of it airing in the Mid East.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #6 of 23
post #7 of 23
A very important problem, perhaps the most important, and one which has not yet been mentioned here, was pointed out by the all important, all knowing, everybody-loves-him, Walter Cronkite. From CNN's Larry King Live, Friday, October 29th, "[I am] inclined to think that Karl Rove, the political manager at the White House, who is a very clever man, he probably set up bin Laden to this thing."

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post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by Beige_G3
Didn't this on come through A-J?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...86A911DDF7.htm

Not to my knowlege. The first I heard of it was that the tape was being shown in the U.S. It could have started in the Mid East, but there was no coverage of it until it hit our shores.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #9 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Beige_G3
Didn't this on come through A-J?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...86A911DDF7.htm

But that's another good reason it's suspect.

Look at it this way - Osama has a message for the US people, that's the point of his tape.

Ok - fair enough - but you will not hear, see or otherwise assimilate that message anywhere. Not on the net, not on TV, nowhere.

There is no full transcript.

I'm going to say that again - there is no full transcript.

You can look but you won't find one. If you do I'd love to read it (and presumably OBL would love us to hear what he has to say) and I'll be prepared to eat crow but you won't find one.

That's point one. You can have insurgents uploading beheading videos top websites, hostages broadcasting appeals - all from a war zone and all without being able to be traced (think about that) and anyone can see it all in all its glory but Osama's important message he has to deliver to AJ.

Despite the fact that apparently his outfit has the abiity to just shove something on a website undetected under the noses of the US.

So: why not put his message on a website ? That way we could all read/see whatever. It would be no danger to him obviously as proved by the Bigley beheaders et al still running free.

Point 2: the excerpts from the transcript we are not allowed to see are highly questionable translations of Arabic. What a surprise.

This is not so important - you would expect some such spin but, again: why did Osama not do a short vid to show he was alive and some English text on a website ? Why Arabic at all if he was addressing the US ?

Point 3 (and this is the clincher for me): Osama does not use Osama's language. He uses the language of Bush and kerry. It's as simple as that.

This is so important. the whole problem is that the west does not understand the Islamist mindset. And vice versa. It's a cultural bridge too far -0 all that can be done is to reduce things to their lowest terms 'they hate our freedoms' or the west is 'immoral'.

But Osama is speaking from this position himself on this latest tape - just from the flipside.

If you analyse the excerpts his expressed view is completely in accordance witht hte 'orthodox party-line' with him in the role of the bad-guy. A role he never repudiates.

That's just not real. Osama may be 'evil' for all I know but he sure as hell doesn't think he is himself.

Maybe things go deeper in the rest of the transcript we are not allowed to read or see. Or maybe it is the mistranslations and spun emphases.

Whatever.

We need to see that transcript. There used to be something called 'freedom' I dimly recall.

We need to see that transcript.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #10 of 23
You raise some good points segovius. The lack of a complete transcript 48 hours after this thing surface is suspicious. How much of the tape was played on A-J? Did anyone here who understands Arabic here it?
post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
There is no full transcript.

I'm going to say that again - there is no full transcript.

We need to see that transcript.

Al-Jazeera has first aired that tape, and has made its own translation , which I found though the page linked above.

The network's claim is:
Quote:
Originally posted by Al-Jazeera
Following is the English transcript of Usama bin Ladin's speech in a videotape aired by Aljazeera on Friday 29 October. In the interests of authenticity the transcript, which appeared as subtitles at the foot of the screen, has been left unedited.

Feel free to judge whether they are worthy of your trust, as the motto of the postwar Soviet-zone Berlin newsreel firm DeFA said: Sehen Sie selbst, hören Sie selbst, urteilen Sie selbst!

And on that same page they also link to a video file of horrendous visual quality but of more than audible audio.

I deduce then that the same organisation has posted the transcript in the original Arabic on one if its Arabic pages.
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« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


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post #12 of 23
Quote:
From the above linked site
OBL: "It never occurred to us that the Commander in Chief of the armed forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone at a time when they most needed him.

"But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers we were given three times the period required to execute the operations."

post #13 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Al-Jazeera has first aired that tape, and has made its own translation , which I found though the page linked above.

The network's claim is:

Feel free to judge whether they are worthy of your trust, as the motto of the postwar Soviet-zone Berlin newsreel firm DeFA said: Sehen Sie selbst, hören Sie selbst, urteilen Sie selbst!

And on that same page they also link to a video file of horrendous visual quality but of more than audible audio.

I deduce then that the same organisation has posted the transcript in the original Arabic on one if its Arabic pages.

I have seen that page Immanuel I do not believe it is a full transcript.

I'd like to see the Arabic page - have you seen it ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I have seen that page Immanuel I do not believe it is a full transcript.

Well they do claim it is undedited rather than full of course. The translation is more unprofessional than biased if you ask me.

Quote:
I'd like to see the Arabic page - have you seen it ?

No, I haven't. I might look for it if I have the time.

I did listen to the speech though.
While my command of Arabic is not as good it should be (mostly due to lack of exercise) I do hear it better than I read it.
Despite my flawed undestanding I could detect a few imprecisions (a-Sha'ab al-Amriki is more accurately translated as the American people than people of the United States) as well as omissions, the most notable being at the end of the speech, when he talks about security not being in the hands Kerry, Bush or al-Qa'eda.
But the rest is there (including honourable mention of martyr-in-chief Muhammad Atta).

If he wasn't the real Osama, I expect those more familiar with him than myself, like Mr. Abdulbari Atouane (editor of the London newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi), would have expressed their suspicions about on Newsnight or something.
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


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« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

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post #15 of 23
It's just like that movie Rio.
post #16 of 23
I, too, have been searching for the full transcript to no avail. This kos diary provides what may or may not be a few clues. bin Laden's Message The diarist and others (see comments) state:

Quote:
the transcripts we have access to so far include only about 5 minutes of the tape. I'm sure it would be very illuminating to see the other 13 minutes.

In the comments, someone claims that
Quote:
Transcript was edited by Al Jazeera according to MSNBC's Andrea Mitchel last night. _She also said State Dept tried to block release. _Perhaps the compromise with Qatar was that some embarassing elements were redacted before the release. _Perhaps in the uncensored version OBL was more specific about his grievances.

[Just an aside, I have to say, when it comes to referencing, kos people are hopeless. Whatever AI's faults and shortcomings may be, as far as referencing goes, WE RULE! I think of it as Future Hardware's gift to us all.]

Somewhere else on kos I read that this video is the first to come with English subtitles. That it had subtitles when AJ got it seems to be confirmed in the AJ quote in Immanuel Goldstein's post above.

I am unconvinced by the "it's an impostor" sites thus far. It could be a Machi-Rovellian stunt but if so, by design, it will be almost impossible to prove.

I have read the "it's not OBL's language" theories as well as other departures it makes from previous videos eg. no kalashnikov, may be in a TV studio, no henchman standing around etc. I wonder however, whether we have seen and heard enough of him in the past to say these are significant departures from the norm. What is the norm?

And yet, I'm left with the feeling this one is somehow "different".

We've had Defiant Osama, Rabid Osama, Fugitive Osama but to me (and contrary to your interpretation segovius), I felt like the role he's adopted here is Statesman Osama. He sounds so goddamn reasonable, calm, measured. And it's so personal. I didn't read it as him adopting the orthodox "bad guy" role but rather patiently trying to explain (almost with what sounds like regret in parts - almost but not quite) why it has come to this.

The whole freedom/security thing is pretty weird especially when he drops mention of the Patriot Act in later on. The Bush Dynasty/Arab rulers comparison is fascinating although I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

He's echoing what increasing numbers of Americans have started saying - we meddled in the Middle East when we shouldn't have and now it's coming back to bite us on the bum.

Don't take this as some sort of defence of OBL. I just think, to try to discover the truth, you have to be as devoid of emotion as possible. Emotion is for after you know the truth - any earlier and it just gets in the way.

If he's trying to endorse either Kerry or Bush, he's done a darn good job of obscuring the fact. He could have just done an Iran after all.

In some translations, the concluding remark has been expressed along the lines of "the reasons for attacks in the past still exist and may lead to more in the future". This is the "threat" version. Other translations include the following:

Quote:
Each state that doesn't mess with our security has automatically secured their security.

Quote:
Any nation that does not attack us will not be attacked.

To me, it's almost like he's offering a deal. One Arab commentator I saw on the box went so far as to describe it as an olive branch. Depending on the accuracy of the translations what it does do is contradict the line that this is a war against the infidel's that won't be won until every last one is dead. I mean, he's saying there could be an end to it all. What the?

Two things I've been pondering:

1. Last time OBL wanted to make a point and get the world to sit up and take notice, he flew planes into buildings. This time he didn't have to. We're all listening now. Doesn't mean he's going to convince anybody, of course. But what better time to grab everybody's attention than a few days before the US election. But then why now? Why after 4 years is he suddenly trying so hard to make us understand his actions?

2. Could this be directed to the Arab world as well? I don't know enough about ME politics to know if this is too outlandish a suggestion but the "Statesman" role made me wonder. The idea goes something like this:
- one basket case Muslim nation (Iraq) ripe for a strong leader to step up to the plate - check
- swipe at the oppressive Arab rulers, a sentiment I'm thinking is maybe shared by many in the ME - check
- what else happened this week? why Yasser Arafat looked like he might drop off his perch. As I understand it, he has not annointed a clear successor. Pitch to Palestinians - check

Anyway, basically buggered if I know. I'm with this Talk Left poster at the moment:

Quote:
please, someone, anyone, tell me you could've predicted a tape like this a year or two ago. he's making fun of the kid's goat book for sh*t's sake!! this is post-modern absurdity of the highest order. if he had a real writer working with him, can you imagine the material this cat could put out there
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post #17 of 23
Thread Starter 
A great post Crazychester - thanks for the time taken on that, it has really opened up several new avenues of thought. I shall have to digest, but briefly:

1) I think you are right about the Statesman aspect - although I wouldn't pin it down to any specific nation or 'job vacancy' it seems clear that Obl is moving in to the area of 'politician' - perhaps this is even why he timed it as he did.

People will scorn this suggestion but it is a well-worn path and it can be done (especially in the Arab world as opposed to the west), Arafat, Sharon, Alawi, Mandela, Adams - all labelled 'terrorists' or murderers. It could happen.

2) The most interesting bit to me is the suggestion that Osama and Bush know something that the American people do not because Bush hid it. Osama expresses surprise at this.

Imo this is central and I'd like to know what it is.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
2) The most interesting bit to me is the suggestion that Osama and Bush know something that the American people do not because Bush hid it. Osama expresses surprise at this.

Imo this is central and I'd like to know what it is.

I just went back to reread this bit in the various transcripts. As I was reading the AJ one, I realized I was reading stuff in it I hadn't read yesterday (or when I made the above post). It now says it's the full transcript.
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post #19 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by crazychester
I just went back to reread this bit in the various transcripts. As I was reading the AJ one, I realized I was reading stuff in it I hadn't read yesterday (or when I made the above post). It now says it's the full transcript.



But the tape is allegedly 13 minutes long - the transcript I saw on AJ was nowhere near.

Curioser and curioser...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius


But the tape is allegedly 13 minutes long - the transcript I saw on AJ was nowhere near.

Curioser and curioser...

No supposedly 18 minutes long (5 minutes originally released + 13 missing). The full transcript is considerably longer. Have to compare their lengths later to see if it accounts for the missing 13 minutes. (I copied the original).

After reading the whole thing.......

Holy crap! Talk about take no prisoners.

What do you do when your worst enemy looks you straight in the eye and tells you the truth?

Why'd it take 3 days to appear?
Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
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post #21 of 23
very, very intersting speech. it's dispicable that the people in DC didn't want this released
post #22 of 23
wow, That speach was pretty interesting...
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by burningwheel
very, very intersting speech. it's dispicable that the people in DC didn't want this released

You mean the people in the White House. DC is very pro-Democrat.
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