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Burnable folders, revised Smart Folders appear in Tiger

post #1 of 70
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The latest pre-release version of Apple's forthcoming Tiger operating system has uncovered several new and undocumented Finder features, according to sources.

Earlier this weekend, the company provided its developers with the first new build of Tiger since its World Wide Developers Conference in June. After installing the new build, sources have noted the presence of a new feature called "Burnable Folders."

Burnable Folders provides users with an easy way to store files that need to be burnt to optical media on a regular basis, offering Mac users an effortless backup option built directly into the Mac OS Finder.

Screenshots: Burnable Folder; Burnable Folder Icon

Users can create burnable folders by selecting "New Burnable Folder" from a updated contextual menu in Tiger's Finder. The folders function like normal Finder folders, but are marked with a radioactive-like "Burn" icon. Items placed into a burnable folder appear as aliases, as not to disrupt the organization of a user's file system.

When opened, burnable folders are marked with a bright yellow stripe and "Burn" button, placed directly beneath the title bar. After a user initiates a folder burn, Tiger retrieves the relevant data from the file aliases and writes it to a users media. The burn folder then remains on the user's system, unaltered and ready for successive backups.

Screenshots: Finder Smart Folder; Burnable Folder Contextual Menu

Another feature discovered in recent builds of Tiger is Finder "Smart Folders." Although this feature was present in previous builds, sources claim that it has gained flexibility and integration with Spotlight.

In addition to adding new search criteria options, Apple has ditched the Smart Folder "Columns View" in favor of a new "Groups View." This view will enable users to display Smart Folder contents in a format very similar to Spotlight search results. The bright blue location bar has also been redesigned in brushed metal.

Apple is currently distributing build 8A294 of Mac OS X Tiger to developers through its Apple Developer Connection. The system weighs in at just shy of 2GB and requires that developers burn the software to DVD media prior to installation. Additional notes on Tiger will follow as Apple continues to refine the OS.
post #2 of 70
Not sure I like losing column view (I like options, even if they suck!) in smart folders.

My main questions on the burnable folders would be

- Can they support multi-session burns (so we can keep incrmental versions of the directories on one disk). [I guess this would depend on the answer to "Does Tiger finally support this without going through hoops?"

- Can a smart folder be set up as a burn folder, or vice versa. Be nice to be able to tell a smart folder to contain all files changed in the last 7 days, then burn that sucker weekly.

BTW, you guys didn't splash "Appleinsider.com" all over your photos like previous ones. And there's some weird underlining thing going on with the bold text after the pictures.
post #3 of 70
Kasper - all the images are borked on that page.

Well, except for the *ads*...
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post #4 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Louzer
Not sure I like losing column view (I like options, even if they suck!) in smart folders.

My main questions on the burnable folders would be

- Can they support multi-session burns (so we can keep incrmental versions of the directories on one disk). [I guess this would depend on the answer to "Does Tiger finally support this without going through hoops?"

- Can a smart folder be set up as a burn folder, or vice versa. Be nice to be able to tell a smart folder to contain all files changed in the last 7 days, then burn that sucker weekly.

BTW, you guys didn't splash "Appleinsider.com" all over your photos like previous ones. And there's some weird underlining thing going on with the bold text after the pictures.

Smart folders can now use any view - icon/list/spotlight types. And you have the same view options as normal folders.
post #5 of 70
Hmmm, what if the "Burnable Folder" contains more information than would fit on the optical medium? Does find ask the user to insert additional media? Or, does it just fail?
post #6 of 70
I imagine the Column view is still available for regular folders.


Wouldn't it be cool when you click burn, the window/folder begins to turn into flames, then melts, and gets restricted into a CD/DVD? Oh animated icons, where art thou?
post #7 of 70
It makes no sense to have 'Burnable Folders'. I don't know what Apple is trying to push onto us. Why couldn't *any* folder be burnable?

Keep It Simple, Stupid!

And the other thing is that there's an menu item for 'New Folder', 'New Burnable Folder', but where is 'New Smart Folder'? The only way to create a Smart Folder at the moment seems to be doing the search first and then saving it as a Smart Folder.

I hope Apple irons out the process of creating Smart Anything. Right now it's done differently in almost every app.
post #8 of 70
I don't get it. Surely it makes sense to do this as an action on a smart folder - such as "burn smart folder" - rather than creating a whole new folder type. Hmmmm...

Cheers Daniel
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post #9 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
It makes no sense to have 'Burnable Folders'. I don't know what Apple is trying to push onto us. Why couldn't *any* folder be burnable?

At first I thought the exact same thing; then after further thought I realized that Burnable Folders are just a holding place, if you will, for items that you would like to burn to a single CD that may not all be located in a single folder when filed normally.
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post #10 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by dahacouk
I don't get it. Surely it makes sense to do this as an action on a smart folder - such as "burn smart folder" - rather than creating a whole new folder type. Hmmmm...

Cheers Daniel

Exactly...all folders should be burnable whether they be normal ones or smart ones. Introducing a new folder type is confusing and unnecessary.
post #11 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by dahacouk
I don't get it. Surely it makes sense to do this as an action on a smart folder - such as "burn smart folder" - rather than creating a whole new folder type. Hmmmm...

Cheers Daniel

The diffence is that you can take a dozen different files from a dozen different folders on a dozen different networked servers and place tham all in a Burnable Folder on your local machine without moving the oiginal files from its current folder.

While not a bad idea it isn't the best one. The best solution would be to insert a blank CD. That CD mounts. Files from multiple locations could be dragged to the icon of the cd. As items a drug to the CD the Finder creates a folder somewhere out of sight from the user and places aliases of the files that have been drug to the CD's icon. Then when the CD is drug to the trash/burn icon the Finder searches out the original files from the aliases, burn the cds and spits it out.
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post #12 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Louzer

- Can a smart folder be set up as a burn folder, or vice versa. Be nice to be able to tell a smart folder to contain all files changed in the last 7 days, then burn that sucker weekly.

If you can't create a burnable smart folder, then presumably you would still be able to create a smart folder and then place an alias to it inside a burnable folder...
post #13 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by fahlman
The diffence is that you can take a dozen different files from a dozen different folders on a dozen different networked servers and place tham all in a Burnable Folder without moving the orginal file from its current folder.

Chorus: But that's exactly what a smart folder is! ;-)

Unless I've got this all wrong a smart folder is just a collection of aliases to real files in other places.

Using this logic of having "burnable folders" doesn't is follow that we should have "emailable folders", "FTPable folders", "speakable folders", etc

Smart folders are a top notch concept but let's not confuse actions with object collections. The whole issue here is about flexibility and decoupling functions. Yeah, keep it simple!

Cheers Daniel
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post #14 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by fahlman

The diffence is that you can take a dozen different files from a dozen different folders on a dozen different networked servers and place tham all in a Burnable Folder on your local machine without moving the oiginal files from its current folder.

But that's still an unnecessary distinction. If you were allowed to burn ANY folder, you could just create a new folder, drag some aliases into it, and then burn it.
post #15 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by dahacouk
Chorus: But that's exactly what a smart folder is! ;-)

Unless I've got this all wrong a smart folder is just a collection of aliases to real files in other places.

Yes and no. By definition a smart folder is a representation of a collection of files all of which answer the same search query. So in order to achieve the same functionality as Burnable Folders with Smart Folders, you'd need to make sure that all of the things you wanted to burn, but only them, had exactly the same metadata attached to them, in order that they'd all turn up when you searched for them.

Is that really the simplest solution?
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post #16 of 70
Burnable folders hold aliases, not actual files/folders. You can still burn any folder, I would think, but for quick access/workflow, you can use these too. I agree it's still half-baked, but it's a reaonsable start IMO. It's like the "burnable" property would be better displayed as a badge a la the alias arrow, and that the property should be attached to a scheduler (cron? Automator?) or to some universally accessible "backup!" button or app (menubar icon? disk copy app? .mac Backup? isync?).

Seems like the icon/list/groups view for smart folders should be icon/list/column/groups, and that view options could be applied to all folders. I think Apple is thinking that showing a path via columns might be misleading for a smart folder, but I don't think that's true, since it's only showing the path to the smart folder, not to the referenced files inside. I don't see why they wouldn't just expand the view options a bit instead of substituting that last one.
post #17 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by staphbaby
Yes and no. By definition a smart folder is a representation of a collection of files all of which answer the same search query. So in order to achieve the same functionality as Burnable Folders with Smart Folders, you'd need to make sure that all of the things you wanted to burn, but only them, had exactly the same metadata attached to them, in order that they'd all turn up when you searched for them.

Is that really the simplest solution?

Like we said...the simplest would be to allow *any* folder to be burned.
post #18 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by staphbaby
By definition a smart folder is a representation of a collection of files all of which answer the same search query.

Ah, yes, now I remember this is an issue I've always had with smart folders...

As long as I can easily add metadata to a file - like tagging it with keyword or whatever then all this is fine. Like "collect all files with keyword: burn2003".

OK. Take iTunes. You have the library (real files), playlists (aliases of dragged files) and smart playlists (aliases of files collected by search query). Now what we really need to be able to do is *combine* the playlists and smart playlists metaphores into a new "very smart playlist" collection type.

OK. Back to the file management. We need a "very smart folder" where you can make a collection of file aliases by both dragging them in *and* also by search query. That would be very powerful. Dragging in an alias can easily be represented by a query if, when the alias is dragged, the original file is tagged with a keyword or something.

Very flexible stuff indeed...

Cheers Daniel
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post #19 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by fahlman
While not a bad idea it isn't the best one. The best solution would be to insert a blank CD. That CD mounts. Files from multiple locations could be dragged to the icon of the cd. As items a drug to the CD the Finder creates a folder somewhere out of sight from the user and places aliases of the files that have been drug to the CD's icon. Then when the CD is drug to the trash/burn icon the Finder searches out the original files from the aliases, burn the cds and spits it out.

Er. That's exactly what the Finder does NOW... haven't used it, I take it?

At the risk of starting another flamefest with kks: make ANY folder burnable? They already are, using the above method. Drag, drop, eject.

I suspect a Burnable Folder does several things that a normal folder does not: warns you if you dump in more than the optical media will hold, for instance. I sure wouldn't want every folder in the system doing that on me, or even doing the check. Talk about bloat.

A Burnable Folder lets them provide a single point of various checks for the files, and provide specialized handlers for specific optical-burning situations that may arise. Using the 'burn any folder' approach, you won't be told that your 4GB of data won't fit on that CD-R until you go to burn it, while with a dynamic checking folder, it can say "You are about to exceed the limit of your selected optical media size by N MB. You need to remove that amount before adding this file. Here is a list of files that are candidates for removal: " Much more informative, and at the point of error, not sometime long after.

You can already burn any folder, but it's an action that has to be repeated for every chunk of media you toss in. You want to make five copies? Drag and drop five times. This way you can set it up *once*, then trigger a burn repeatedly. Slick. Or, say, you can have a backend script that continually adds items to the folder, and triggers a burn, empties folder, and repeats with new files, for backing up purposes.

Nifty.
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post #20 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by fahlman
The diffence is that you can take a dozen different files from a dozen different folders on a dozen different networked servers and place tham all in a Burnable Folder on your local machine without moving the oiginal files from its current folder.

Hey, you got the whole point (which just seems to be completely missed by too many people here). A 'burn' folder is similar to a 'smart' folder in the sense its not a real folder, its a holder of aliases to files that you want to burn REGULARLY to a CD (its pointless if you're only doing it once). The files you may want to back up can come from anywhere, not just one folder. So you can fill it with files from various directories on your computer and file server. Then, whenever you want to gather that information, you just open your folder and click burn.


The problem with just making ANY folder burnable and losing this 'special' folder is that you'd either have to copy all files to the folder, which would be stupid, or specifically copy aliases to the files to the folder (which you'd have to manually do, holding the correct keys to get the alias to be made while you copy).

But then you run into the problem of whether aliases should be burned as aliases, or should the original file be copied.
Now, if you created a special folder to hold your aliases, you'd know you'd want the originals. But let's say you just clicked on your library folder and clicked 'burn'. Well, if there's an alias to your music folder in there, then should it burn your 20 GB music collection, or just the alias itself? [Stuffit has the same problem. You can tell it to stuff originals or the aliases, but then you may not realize your stuffing the same directory three or four times because you have aliases of it everywhere.]

My overall point is that you have to think about ALL the possibilities/probabilities before just saying "Hey, ALL folders should be burnable".
post #21 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Er. That's exactly what the Finder does NOW... haven't used it, I take it?

At the risk of starting another flamefest with kks: make ANY folder burnable? They already are, using the above method. Drag, drop, eject.

I suspect a Burnable Folder does several things that a normal folder does not: warns you if you dump in more than the optical media will hold, for instance. I sure wouldn't want every folder in the system doing that on me, or even doing the check. Talk about bloat.

A Burnable Folder lets them provide a single point of various checks for the files, and provide specialized handlers for specific optical-burning situations that may arise. Using the 'burn any folder' approach, you won't be told that your 4GB of data won't fit on that CD-R until you go to burn it, while with a dynamic checking folder, it can say "You are about to exceed the limit of your selected optical media size by N MB. You need to remove that amount before adding this file. Here is a list of files that are candidates for removal: " Much more informative, and at the point of error, not sometime long after.

You can already burn any folder, but it's an action that has to be repeated for every chunk of media you toss in. You want to make five copies? Drag and drop five times. This way you can set it up *once*, then trigger a burn repeatedly. Slick. Or, say, you can have a backend script that continually adds items to the folder, and triggers a burn, empties folder, and repeats with new files, for backing up purposes.

Nifty.

I don't think you get it. There are several more elegant ways Apple could have done this. Making a special 'Burnable Folder' is just the simple (or Microsftian) way out of a more complex problem.

Any folder should be burnable. There are ways to warn the user before burn (during normal usage of folders) and when the burn is about to be initiated...Apple just needs to put in subtle warnings that don't disrupt workflow. Really...a special Burnable Folder is a joke...it's no surprise that Apple comes up with half-baked solutions at the rate they're introducing new features. They should slow down and plan their shit.

At the very least, one should be able to make his normal folders burnable without creating a new 'Burnable Folder' for this whole thing to be taken seriously.
post #22 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Er. That's exactly what the Finder does NOW... haven't used it, I take it?

Currently the Finder creates a hidden disk image, so when you drag items to the disc to be burned you are actually copying the file to a disk image, so you have to wait for the copy of the file to complete before you can burn. I always found that annoying.

Also the inability to erase CD-RWs from the Finder is a pain, hell.. we had that in OS 9. Thats one thing I would really like added back into the Finder.

Now onto these 'burnable folders', I find them a very interesting addition and a good way of collecting a bunch of files around your drive (or multiple drives) that may need to be burned on a regular basis.
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post #23 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
I don't think you get it. There are several more elegant ways Apple could have done this.

Prove it. Name one that will stand up to scrutiny.

Quote:
Making a special 'Burnable Folder' is just the simple (or Microsftian) way out of a more complex problem.

Then come up with something better.

Quote:
Any folder should be burnable.

Any folder is. We covered that.

Quote:
There are ways to warn the user before burn (during normal usage of folders) and when the burn is about to be initiated...Apple just needs to put in subtle warnings that don't disrupt workflow.

Like what? I have (checks really quickly) looks like about 14,000 folders on my drive right now. Seems like a lot of waste when I can guarantee you that >13,990 of those are likely to never be burned to optical media.

Quote:
Really...a special Burnable Folder is a joke...it's no surprise that Apple comes up with half-baked solutions at the rate they're introducing new features. They should slow down and plan their shit.

So take your time, and come back with a better plan. We'll wait.

Quote:
At the very least, one should be able to make his normal folders burnable without creating a new 'Burnable Folder' for this whole thing to be taken seriously. [/B]

Oh please. Been covered.
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post #24 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisG
Currently the Finder creates a hidden disk image, so when you drag items to the disc to be burned you are actually copying the file to a disk image, so you have to wait for the copy of the file to complete before you can burn. I always found that annoying.

Ack, you're right. My bad.

Quote:
Also the inability to erase CD-RWs from the Finder is a pain, hell.. we had that in OS 9. Thats one thing I would really like added back into the Finder.

No arguments there.
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post #25 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Prove it. Name one that will stand up to scrutiny.



Then come up with something better.



Any folder is. We covered that.



Like what? I have (checks really quickly) looks like about 14,000 folders on my drive right now. Seems like a lot of waste when I can guarantee you that >13,990 of those are likely to never be burned to optical media.



So take your time, and come back with a better plan. We'll wait.



Oh please. Been covered.

All folders could have a 'prepare for burning' icon that would ready it for burning and warn the user if it's exceeded the media's capacity. It could be left on or not depending on the user's wishes. Then, when they want to burn the content, they can simply click the burn icon.

Having a new option to create a 'Burnable Folder' and not being able to switch between Burnable and Normal Folder is a stupid solution. Why segregate the two? If someone created a folder that he suddenly wants to burn but realizes it wasn't created as a burnable folder, what does he do? Create a new 'Burnable Folder' and move the contents into it? That's a ridiculous solution. You may like it but it proves you're not thinking about better solutions and taking whatever Apple serves you as if it were on a silver platter.

That wasn't hard now was it? Didn't take much time either. Apple could spend a hundred times as much time as I did (one minute) and even come up with something better.

As of right now, is there a way to have Burnable Smart Folders? No? Didn't think so. My solution wouldn't discrimate between normal and smart folders.

Anyways...they're still dev builds and 10.4 is subject to change before it's final, so I still have hope that Apple will clean up the mess it's making.

It's also inconceivable that 'New Smart Folders' is absent from the File menu when Smart Whatever is available in every other app that can create Smart objects and that 'New Burnable Folder' is...but...that's right, dev build. I'm sure it'll turn up eventually.
post #26 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Er. That's exactly what the Finder does NOW... haven't used it, I take it?

I'm not using Panther, but Jaguar. Doesn't Jaguar actually move a duplicate copy of the file to "the hidden folder" and then burn the CD, taking way too long? If this has changed in Panther then I would be unaware of the change.

Edit: Didn't see ChrisG's, and your follow up, before posting. Someone get a permanent marker and write this on the calendar. I WAS CORRECT, I CORRECT! Boston wins the World Series, and I'm correct. When does hell freeze over?
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post #27 of 70
I'm not running the Tiger dev version, so I'm just going on what is being reported:

Currently it works like this:

* A temporary disk image,folder, is created when a blank CD is inserted into your machine - it has a CD icon
* You can copy files to the disk image
* You click on it and burn it

In Tiger:

* You don't need to insert a blank CD anymore
* A special type of folder with a burn icon is created instead of the CD icon
* Only aliases to the original file are copied into the burnable folder
* You click on it and burn it
* I assume that a temporary disk image is created when you do burn the folder

So the main difference between the two is the first burns a copy of the files as they are when you drag them to the CD icon and the second burns a copy of the files as are when you click burn.

I can see myself using this mostly for my weekly manual backups for projects. Create a smart folder of only the stuff that I want backed up in the project directory and then copy that smart folder to a burnable folder. Nothing major, just a convenience.
post #28 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuttle
I'm not running the Tiger dev version, so I'm just going on what is being reported:

Currently it works like this:

* A temporary disk image,folder, is created when a blank CD is inserted into your machine - it has a CD icon
* You can copy files to the disk image
* You click on it and burn it

In Tiger:

* You don't need to insert a blank CD anymore
* A special type of folder with a burn icon is created instead of the CD icon
* Only aliases to the original file are copied into the burnable folder
* You click on it and burn it
* I assume that a temporary disk image is created when you do burn the folder

So the main difference between the two is the first burns a copy of the files as they are when you drag them to the CD icon and the second burns a copy of the files as are when you click burn.

I can see myself using this mostly for my weekly manual backups for projects. Create a smart folder of only the stuff that I want backed up in the project directory and then copy that smart folder to a burnable folder. Nothing major, just a convenience.

Did you mean to say inconvenience?

I can see two problems:

1) it would simply be easier to burn the smart folder directly than to copy it to a burnable folder and then burn that

2) as of right now, smart folders are treated as query files...I don't know if this is going to change but I hope it does...if it doesn't, you'll just be burning a query file instead the actual files that you wanted to burn that were returned by the query
post #29 of 70
Ummmmmm....this feature already exists for 10.3. TheHotFolder by Ronin No Sakura Kai Softronics already does this.

http://kaisakura.com/index2.html (click on TheHotFolder Reheated)

First Apple rips of Karelia for Watson, now this. Why does Apple go through all the trouble of courting developers if they are just going to rip them off?

I hope the guy was at least compensated for this....
post #30 of 70
Louzer seems to be one of the few people here who really GET what the burnable folder does. If you make a normal folder burnable, you're just burning the files physically inside this folder on the disk!

From what I can tell, a burnable folder keeps aliases for files all over the disk. You're not duplicating the files so there's no wait or wasted space. Then when you burn, unlike a normal folder, it resolves the aliases and makes your gathered backup. A normal folder would burn the stupid aliases, cuz that's what u asked it to do.

You also don't have to rearrange your file structure to make sure all the things you want to back up are in the same normal folder so u can back it up all at once. And changes to the original files are reflected in each later burn. Think of it as a data disc compilation document in Toast, but it's right in the Finder.

I think it's a great idea.
post #31 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
All folders could have a 'prepare for burning' icon that would ready it for burning and warn the user if it's exceeded the media's capacity. It could be left on or not depending on the user's wishes. Then, when they want to burn the content, they can simply click the burn icon.

Having a new option to create a 'Burnable Folder' and not being able to switch between Burnable and Normal Folder is a stupid solution. Why segregate the two? If someone created a folder that he suddenly wants to burn but realizes it wasn't created as a burnable folder, what does he do? Create a new 'Burnable Folder' and move the contents into it? That's a ridiculous solution. You may like it but it proves you're not thinking about better solutions and taking whatever Apple serves you as if it were on a silver platter.

That wasn't hard now was it? Didn't take much time either. Apple could spend a hundred times as much time as I did (one minute) and even come up with something better.

As of right now, is there a way to have Burnable Smart Folders? No? Didn't think so. My solution wouldn't discrimate between normal and smart folders.

Anyways...they're still dev builds and 10.4 is subject to change before it's final, so I still have hope that Apple will clean up the mess it's making.

It's also inconceivable that 'New Smart Folders' is absent from the File menu when Smart Whatever is available in every other app that can create Smart objects and that 'New Burnable Folder' is...but...that's right, dev build. I'm sure it'll turn up eventually.

I think you have been confused by the name. When I saw this, I did not think that you could only burn this or that folder. I saw, "Hey great! I can finally now save off my backup set!" I.e., when I want to backup my pics, email, docs or whatever, I don't have to insert a blank media, and remember what items I want to back up. I just create a new "backup set" or "burnable folder", browse to it, click burn, insert blank, and the data gets backed up.
Maybe you did see this too, but, from your comments, it does not sound to me to be the case. I think others have been confused as well. I think it is just a bad name, or a matter of getting used to a new name for backup set, which, some people might not understand either anyway :-)

I just want it to say, "please insert disk 2", when disk 1 gets filled up, instead of just saying "can't fit all of the information onto the disk".
post #32 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by arougthopher
I think you have been confused by the name. When I saw this, I did not think that you could only burn this or that folder. I saw, "Hey great! I can finally now save off my backup set!" I.e., when I want to backup my pics, email, docs or whatever, I don't have to insert a blank media, and remember what items I want to back up. I just create a new "backup set" or "burnable folder", browse to it, click burn, insert blank, and the data gets backed up.
Maybe you did see this too, but, from your comments, it does not sound to me to be the case. I think others have been confused as well. I think it is just a bad name, or a matter of getting used to a new name for backup set, which, some people might not understand either anyway :-)

I just want it to say, "please insert disk 2", when disk 1 gets filled up, instead of just saying "can't fit all of the information onto the disk".

I get what you're saying just fine...and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to just hit burn from any folder.

Smart Folders can be thought of 'aliases' to files...why is it excluded from being burnable in the 'Burnable Folder' implementation we see in 8A294
post #33 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Having a new option to create a 'Burnable Folder' and not being able to switch between Burnable and Normal Folder is a stupid solution. Why segregate the two?

Because one is designed for backing up files (burnable folder), and one is not. One contains anything (file, folder, alias), and one contains just aliases of files that need to be backed-up to a CD/DVD on a regular basis.

I would bet that most Tiger users don't use burnable folders, because they don't back up their files, and won't start. They might, however, continue to burn disks the way they do today.

Quote:
If someone created a folder that he suddenly wants to burn but realizes it wasn't created as a burnable folder, what does he do? Create a new 'Burnable Folder' and move the contents into it? That's a ridiculous solution.

You're right about that. A burnable folder is a ridiculous solution for someone who "suddenly realizes" that they want to burn a particular folder once, as opposed to setting up a backup that will be done more than once. No one, after all, has said that the current way of burning files from the Finder is going away, unless I missed something.

However, I think it's more likely that some people don't really understand what a burnable folder is designed to be, and think it is replacing the existing way of burning CD/DVDs.

Quote:
That wasn't hard now was it? Didn't take much time either. Apple could spend a hundred times as much time as I did (one minute) and even come up with something better.

No argument. More to the point, they did.

Quote:
It's also inconceivable that 'New Smart Folders' is absent from the File menu when Smart Whatever is available in every other app that can create Smart objects and that 'New Burnable Folder' is...but...that's right, dev build. I'm sure it'll turn up eventually.

Aren't smart folders created from the search function in the Finder? Why would you want to create a smart folder that had no criteria for searching? You search, and if you want to save the search so it's always available, you turn it into a smart folder. Simplicity itself.
post #34 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
I get what you're saying just fine...and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to just hit burn from any folder.

Smart Folders can be thought of 'aliases' to files...why is it excluded from being burnable in the 'Burnable Folder' implementation we see in 8A294

yes, but smart folders are for saving off a "search", so the contents are live.
and, afaik, you can insert a cd, and copy the smart folder to it, and get the proper results.
But, if i don't have my search in the smart folder set up properly, i may not back something up under say my documents folder.
And also, do smart folders keep the same folder hierarchy? If not, the backup would not be the same as what is on disk.
post #35 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by dahacouk
Ah, yes, now I remember this is an issue I've always had with smart folders...

As long as I can easily add metadata to a file - like tagging it with keyword or whatever then all this is fine. Like "collect all files with keyword: burn2003".

OK. Take iTunes. You have the library (real files), playlists (aliases of dragged files) and smart playlists (aliases of files collected by search query). Now what we really need to be able to do is *combine* the playlists and smart playlists metaphores into a new "very smart playlist" collection type.

Theoretically the smart folders wouldn't 'need' keywords as they'd be able to search the content of the files (searchlight search). But keywords would be quite helpful.

However, one problem with iTunes is that a single file can only belong to one album. If you have the same song in several albums, you have to have several copies, because the song info is stored in the file as a single entry. You should be able to enter more than one set of album data on a file so you can have a true break from the underlying files and your MP3 player's organization.

but that's my rant...
post #36 of 70
Actually I am very happy with the burn folder as it is.

It allows me to set up a nightly backup folder at work, which includes files from various folders, including 2 accounting data files and several docs, minimum. It does save time and allows me to take a critical backup home with me each night.

My real issue is can I first "burn" it to my local external HD and then burn it to, say, a USB memory dongle? I don't always need to use a full CD ffor critical backups.

For those with other desires the thing to do is to define it fully & clearly and send it to Apple as a suggestion or feature request. (Be nice about it - bitching comments tend to end in the trash at a lot of companies.)

It's a great idea and will delay the introduction of Longhorn another month . . .
Ken
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Ken
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post #37 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
I get what you're saying just fine...and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to just hit burn from any folder.

Smart Folders can be thought of 'aliases' to files...why is it excluded from being burnable in the 'Burnable Folder' implementation we see in 8A294

It's the first version of Burnable Folders, so I'd imagine it will evolve some before Tiger is released. A few things I'd like to see are some more details in that yellow bar, showing how many CD's/DVD's you'll need to back up the files, and also some way of doing the same thing with Smart Folders. That way you can save off these lists of files to be burned that are generated either manually or automatically (just like you can burn regular playlists or smart playlists in iTunes).
post #38 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by mwalker
Because one is designed for backing up files (burnable folder), and one is not. One contains anything (file, folder, alias), and one contains just aliases of files that need to be backed-up to a CD/DVD on a regular basis.

I would bet that most Tiger users don't use burnable folders, because they don't back up their files, and won't start. They might, however, continue to burn disks the way they do today.



You're right about that. A burnable folder is a ridiculous solution for someone who "suddenly realizes" that they want to burn a particular folder once, as opposed to setting up a backup that will be done more than once. No one, after all, has said that the current way of burning files from the Finder is going away, unless I missed something.

However, I think it's more likely that some people don't really understand what a burnable folder is designed to be, and think it is replacing the existing way of burning CD/DVDs.



No argument. More to the point, they did.



Aren't smart folders created from the search function in the Finder? Why would you want to create a smart folder that had no criteria for searching? You search, and if you want to save the search so it's always available, you turn it into a smart folder. Simplicity itself.

You don't seem to understand anything I've been saying...but I'll address the last part which I haven't really spent much time on.

Address Book smart groups, iPhoto smart groups iTunes smart playlists all have a 'New Smartwhatever' option under File which pops a sheet down so you can enter your criteria. Creating a new smart folder would do just that...ask for the criterias.

I'm not disagreeing that the way it works right now isn't "simplicity itself"...it is simple...but the option to create a smart folder without having to first enter a criteria into the search field would be good...especially for those that need to just create a folder of all files with 'Kind' = RockNES Cartridge. If the current implementation doesn't change (Spotlight doesn't find all RockNES cartridges if you type in 'RockNES', the current way of making Smart Folder sucks balls for this type of query.
post #39 of 70
Oh why do people get so bent out of shape over a feature that may or may not make it into Tiger when its released, or not even make it in there in its current form. There's reasons this stuff is in development: its not done yet. To say you can or can't burn a folder or burn a smart folder is only stating what you know it can or can't do right now, not what its going to do in the final version.

Now, getting onto the subject of this...

Quote:

I get what you're saying just fine...and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to just hit burn from any folder.

Smart Folders can be thought of 'aliases' to files...why is it excluded from being burnable in the 'Burnable Folder' implementation we see in 8A294

First off, creating a special folder has the advantages of (a) containing aliases instead of files, so the originals can be stored anywhere, and (b) allow the user to organize a task by using separate mechanisms ("I want to have a back-up set, hey, here's a folder listing all the files I want to back up.")

Making smart folders burnable doesn't solve the problem that 'burnable folders' address, as you would need to define a smart folder's criteria to find all the files you want to burn (exactly how do you group your Quicken Data file, mail files, Safari Bookmarks, Address Book, iTunes playlists, Excel spreadsheets, Word documents, iChat logs, etc, into a single smart folder?). It would work if you were trying to burn all files "within my home directory that are dated within the last week" and stuff, but not just for a random group of files that you want to make sure you have copies of.

Also, burning every folder doesn't solve this problem, because it assumes (a) all your files are in one place, and/or (b) you want to burn all files within the folder. Maybe you're like that, but my files are all organized under different directories, with some on the server, some in Documents, some in Library, some in other directories both in and out of my Home directory. But I don't want to burn my entire Documents folder. Just certain critical files. So to use the 'burn any folder' philosophy, I'd have to create a new folder, copy the files into the folder, and then burn that, which is exactly what you'd have to do with a burn folder, except they're aliases you create, not copies (unless they set up the burn folder option you want to burn originals, but like I argued previously and you ignored, what if you don't want the originals or realize there is aliases in the folder that would bring over large files or folders?).

So, basically, burn folders DO make sense. Their current implementation may not be the greatest, but I would hope Apple at this point in time is worrying about the functionality working rather than making it pretty first, then getting it to work second.

As to the arguments that any folder, even smart folders, should be burnable, I agree. It would be nice. But that doesn't make the burnable folders option unneeded or unwanted.
post #40 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
I'm not disagreeing that the way it works right now isn't "simplicity itself"...it is simple...but the option to create a smart folder without having to first enter a criteria into the search field would be good...especially for those that need to just create a folder of all files with 'Kind' = RockNES Cartridge. If the current implementation doesn't change (Spotlight doesn't find all RockNES cartridges if you type in 'RockNES', the current way of making Smart Folder sucks balls for this type of query.

Well, being that you seem to be using tiger (based on your quotes, it seems like its firsthand), you should then be submitting feedback to apple on these issues so they can get resolved (then again, being Tiger is 6 months from being released, to think that the way it is now means its how it will be is an iffy proposition). Of course, if you are using Tiger, I don't think you're supposed to be saying anything about it, which then implies you have a 'bootleg' copy, and, as such, Apple won't care what you have to say on the matter.
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