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PBS Frontline - Rumsfeld's War

post #1 of 12
11/1/04 at 7:45am
Thread Starter 
linky linky

Powell/Armitage v. Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz battle it out for the ear of our suggestible president. Sadly, the nutcases win and lead to the biggest failure of a presidency in a long long time.

Watch the collapse streaming online!
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post #2 of 12
11/1/04 at 8:44am
Thanks for the link! Hope to watch it soon.
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post #3 of 12
11/1/04 at 9:08am
looks interesting, but I gave up after 4 loooong rebuffers in the first 60 sec.

maybe it will be better after tomorrow, like I'm hoping our entire country will be.
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post #4 of 12
11/1/04 at 9:25am
Rummy always reminds me of Skeletor. Always.
It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.
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It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.
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post #5 of 12
11/1/04 at 9:34am
Thread Starter 
I get rebuffering, but not that long (I'm on UT's connection, which is stupid-fast) so I suffered through it.

For those who can't bear through it, here's the summary:
The neo-cons wanted war on Iraq since before 9/11. Rumsfeld got arrogant after our seeming victory in Afghanistan and pushed all obstacles out of his way to a small force war in Iraq.

The plan Rummy wanted called for 50,000 troops who would just go straight to Baghdad. Just about every general in the Army thought this was absolutely insane (or as one said, "If you were to tell me 50,000 people, I couldn't even answer you on television.")

The Army's post-Gulf War Iraq hypothetical take-over plan called for *at least* 480,000 troops. At least.

We got compromise and ended up with a force of ~140,000.

So essentially what you have is what happened in Vietnam. The Army brass realizes what kind of overwhelming force is needed, but the politicians know that's not acceptable for re-election purposes, so we went in half-assed and got stuck.

Shinseki gets pushed out because he held fast.
Franks buckled and accepted the compromise.

It was the war plan that no one wanted; too big for Rumsfeld, too small for the military.

How could it fail!?
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post #6 of 12
11/1/04 at 9:44am
Thread Starter 
What a tragic tale is Colin Powell's.

A black leader of unprecedented respect and international prestige cut down at the knees.

As odd as it seems, that is what I will forever hate W for; the destruction of Colin Powell.
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post #7 of 12
11/1/04 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally posted by 709
Rummy always reminds me of Skeletor. Always.

Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #8 of 12
11/1/04 at 9:52am
Watched this last night.

Fascinating, and sad.

Neocon spin machine beforehand, denial afterwards.

Another attempt by the reactionaries to have ideology trump reality.

Not that transformation in and of itself isn't a useful concept, but it seems clear from this broadcast that political motives took priority over pesky facts or expertise, as is typical from this administration.

50,000 troops to control a country of millions full of historically hostile factions? Riiiiiiight.

Mmmm.. neocon koolaid.
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #9 of 12
11/1/04 at 10:01am
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
What a tragic tale is Colin Powell's.

A black leader of unprecedented respect and international prestige cut down at the knees.

As odd as it seems, that is what I will forever hate W for; the destruction of Colin Powell.

The really tragic part of Colin Powell's story is that he would have had popular support from both Republicans and Democrats if he had run for president. Now, that scenario has been virtually destroyed. I don't know of any progressives or Dems who still respect him like they used to. He has been permanently neutered in public poltiics.

Tragic. I'm sure he'll be just fine in the private sector though.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #10 of 12
11/1/04 at 10:03am
Thread Starter 
What's so funny/tragic about this is its parallels with Vietnam. This is a concept I was entirely against (comparing Iraq to Vietnam) and while the on-the-battlefield results might not mirror each other, the political maneuvering definitely smells like Vietnam.

What it seems to boil down to is that the American people do not like a lot of people dying without a damned good reason. WWII, we did horrible things to Japan but we could justify it, it was World War f'n II. But in Vietnam... no. And in Iraq... no.

We knew what it would take to win the war.
The neo-cons knew what it would take to win re-election.

Unfortunately, it looks like we'll lose Iraq (at least the ideal Iraq that all of us war supporters wanted in the beginning) and win Bush another 4 years through half-assing the war.

That's what history is going to remember this as, a half-ass war by a half-ass administration.

Are Republican voters going to spin away a deluge of military brass and history away as liberal agitators or will they ever see the truth that is this fraud of an administration?
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post #11 of 12
11/1/04 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Are Republican voters going to spin away a deluge of military brass and history away as liberal agitators or will they ever see the truth that is this fraud of an administration?

I wish I could say yes. But I fear that the sleepwalking ditto-heads will pull the lever for Bush despite the mountain of evidence.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #12 of 12
11/1/04 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
What a tragic tale is Colin Powell's.

A black leader of unprecedented respect and international prestige cut down at the knees.

Sad, but true. Colin Powel always had to clean up the mess afterwards.
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