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Country afraid of Gays,,, Bush Wins  

post #1 of 335
Thread Starter 
Conservative cultural Christians have secured Bush another 4 years.

This has more to do with the whole "gay" wedge issue Bush injected into this election than anyone will let on.

I would hope that the democratic party realize that they can not win without the Christian votes.

It seems clear as day that when the Republican party panders to the conservative Christians they win elections.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #2 of 335
Bush didn't really inject it...it was already there...
Crunch for the Cure!
http://www.find-a-drug.org/

---------------------------------
God created Adam and Eve, He didnt create Adam and Steve
-Rep. Roscoe Bartlett
Crunch for the Cure!
http://www.find-a-drug.org/

---------------------------------
God created Adam and Eve, He didnt create Adam and Steve
-Rep. Roscoe Bartlett
post #3 of 335
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Neø
Bush didn't really inject it...it was already there...

Forget the war: Thousands dead in a wrong war

Forget international integrity: Rename French Fries "Freedom Fries" Ignore international law and leave people hostage in Cuba. Thousands dead in a wrong war.

Forget domestic integrity: Make the public afraid of Terror, bankrupt the country with all this money spent on killing to secure oil.

Forget it all.

Get a cultural conservative Christian to vote against Gays and you win.

Welcome to America...

I am not proud to be an American during this time.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #4 of 335
I suspect you'll need to invade the EU next, because we seem to be tolerant of Gays.

Infact we even threw a bigotted Pastor in Jail for a month for teaching that homosexuality was a cancer, and we just threw an Italian out of the EU parliament for saying that Gays were a sin.

Welcome to Tolerant Europe.

Anyone wishing to leave the United States of Bigotted Fundamentalism will find us quite welcoming.
post #5 of 335
Ummm, hello? The Mass supreme court interjected homosexuality into the debate. Oregon and those lovable folk in San Fran decided to play along. Kerry has nobody to thank but the people in his own party (San Fran, Oregon and Mass are all democratic). His own party members brought up this issue. If you want to blame the victory on something, at least do some work to make sure that it is blameworthy.

Of course, if you want to think that is why Bush won, go ahead, it is a free country. Unlike Iraq two years ago.
King Felix
King Felix
post #6 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
Ummm, hello? The Mass supreme court interjected homosexuality into the debate. Oregon and those lovable folk in San Fran decided to play along. Kerry has nobody to thank but the people in his own party (San Fran, Oregon and Mass are all democratic). His own party members brought up this issue. If you want to blame the victory on something, at least do some work to make sure that it is blameworthy.

Of course, if you want to think that is why Bush won, go ahead, it is a free country. Unlike Iraq two years ago.

The fact that it was a debate at all is the goddamn problem.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
post #7 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Anna Mated
I suspect you'll need to invade the EU next, because we seem to be tolerant of Gays.

Infact we even threw a bigotted Pastor in Jail for a month for teaching that homosexuality was a cancer, and we just threw an Italian out of the EU parliament for saying that Gays were a sin.

Welcome to Tolerant Europe.

Anyone wishing to leave the United States of Bigotted Fundamentalism will find us quite welcoming.

Pick your poison:
Bigotted Fundamentalism or Bigotted tolerance.

Nice to see you believe in freedom of religion over there
King Felix
King Felix
post #8 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Anna Mated
I suspect you'll need to invade the EU next, because we seem to be tolerant of Gays.

Infact we even threw a bigotted Pastor in Jail for a month for teaching that homosexuality was a cancer, and we just threw an Italian out of the EU parliament for saying that Gays were a sin.

Welcome to Tolerant Europe.

Anyone wishing to leave the United States of Bigotted Fundamentalism will find us quite welcoming.

My wife and I are seriously considering moving overseas. We were considering this before today's election. But this only motivates us to look into it further.

How hard is it for an American to gain residency and find gainful work?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
post #9 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
Pick your poison:
Bigotted Fundamentalism or Bigotted tolerance.

Nice to see you believe in freedom of religion over there

I dont believe in freedom of religion, personally I believe in Freedom FROM religion.
post #10 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
The fact that it was a debate at all is the goddamn problem.

Contrary to the word on the street, some people view the priorities of the world differently than you. Who are you to say that they are wrong? Are we being judgemental and intolerant?
King Felix
King Felix
post #11 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
Are we being judgemental and intolerant?

Abso-fucking-lutely.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
post #12 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Anna Mated
I dont believe in freedom of religion, personally I believe in Freedom FROM religion.

Outside of the EU, you are in the minority.
King Felix
King Felix
post #13 of 335
I think it boils down to this paradox.

Should I tolerate intolerant people?
post #14 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Abso-fucking-lutely.

Well, in the end, the Democrats really only have themselves to blame. People in Mass, SF, and Ore brought up homosexuality in an election year. If you want to be judgemental, turn some it to those who stirred up the controversy in the first place.
King Felix
King Felix
post #15 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Forget the war: Thousands dead in a wrong war

Forget international integrity: Rename French Fries "Freedom Fries" Ignore international law and leave people hostage in Cuba. Thousands dead in a wrong war.

Forget domestic integrity: Make the public afraid of Terror, bankrupt the country with all this money spent on killing to secure oil.

Forget it all.

Get a cultural conservative Christian to vote against Gays and you win.

Welcome to America...

I am not proud to be an American during this time.

Fellowship

Here here, Fellows.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
post #16 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Anna Mated
I think it boils down to this paradox.

Should I tolerate intolerant people?

That's a fundamental issue that you will have to deal with in your own ethical decisions. Either be consistent and tolerate what you consider to be your antithesis or be inconsistent and become what you hate. I honestly don't have a solution for you because I don't live in the same presuppositional framework as you (i'm firmly planted in Christian theism). Tolerance has always seemed to me to be a pragmatic working out of the belief that there is no real truth (i.e. that all truth is relative to the culture/individual/time).
King Felix
King Felix
post #17 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship


Welcome to America...

I am not proud to be an American during this time.

Fellowship

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. While you're at it, you can take Bruce, the Dixie Chicks, Deathcab, Mellancamp, all your celebrities and try to figure out why the majority of the country doesn't agree with you and you lost.
post #18 of 335
he didn't say he was giving up on you guys, smartass little tyke.
post #19 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. While you're at it, you can take Bruce, the Dixie Chicks, Deathcab, Mellancamp, all your celebrities and try to figure out why the majority of the country doesn't agree with you and you lost.


Its not the majority of the country. Its the number of people that voted for Bush that doesn't agree with him/her.

I heard, so far, 50+ million people voted for Bush. Since when is the US a country of 50+ million people only?

The country has 293 million people. When the majority of 293 million people vote for Bush, then you can talk about the "majority of the country". Until then, you can safely use the terms "the number of Bush voters".
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #20 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. While you're at it, you can take Bruce, the Dixie Chicks, Deathcab, Mellancamp, all your celebrities and try to figure out why the majority of the country doesn't agree with you and you lost.

Don't forget Alec Baldwin, Barbra Streisand, and Sean Penn. One of these three will be missed for their acting abilities. The other two won't be missed.
King Felix
King Felix
post #21 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
Tolerance has always seemed to me to be a pragmatic working out of the belief that there is no real truth (i.e. that all truth is relative to the culture/individual/time).

Thats what the facts of the evidence suggest.
post #22 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Its not the majority of the country. Its the number of people that voted for Bush that doesn't agree with him/her.

I heard, so far, 50+ million people voted for Bush. Since when is the US a country of 50+ million people only?

The country has 293 million people. When the majority of 293 million people vote for Bush, then you can talk about the "majority of the country". Until then, you can safely use the terms "the number of Bush voters".

By such reasoning, the US of A would not have had a legitimate government for well over the last hundred years. Moral of the story:

If you don't vote, you shouldn't complain. If you did vote, then your vote counts for more.

Yesterday, I had a conversation with one of my friends in mainland China. He can't vote. The Government hates him because he is a Christian. It is a blessing to vote and if people want to ignore that blessing and responsibility, then they shouldn't complain.
King Felix
King Felix
post #23 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Its not the majority of the country. Its the number of people that voted for Bush that doesn't agree with him/her.

I heard, so far, 50+ million people voted for Bush. Since when is the US a country of 50+ million people only?

The country has 293 million people. When the majority of 293 million people vote for Bush, then you can talk about the "majority of the country". Until then, you can safely use the terms "the number of Bush voters".

hmmm.. pretty sure you'd be singing a different tune if the numbers were reversed.


wah wah wah. sore loser.
post #24 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
hmmm.. pretty sure you'd be singing a different tune if the numbers were reversed.


wah wah wah. sore loser.

I see pride, gloating and arrogance. You understand the message of Jesus very well.
post #25 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Anna Mated
Thats what the facts of the evidence suggest.

No, the purely empirical facts of the evidence suggest that there is no such thing as morality either way. Tolerance is just as right and wrong as facism because right and wrong are semantic labels with no real meaning. Choosing one over the other is valid without regard to which one you choose because morality is a metaphysical value judgement not rooted in the empirical world. As Hume said, you can show that whipping babies causes them pain, but you cannot show that wipping babies is wrong because "wrongness" is not an empirical quality.

The more horrorific fact of the matter is that tolerance is just as correct as intolerance. Neither is provably right because there is no way to prove what is right. We just like to choose tolerance over intolerance because we are scared of where we think intolerance will take us. Alfred Ayer was right but a post modern society is scared of embracing what he wrote and so we strangely hold onto the cultural moral baggage of modernism while pretending to be post modern.

My 2 cents.
King Felix
King Felix
post #26 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
wah wah wah. sore loser.

Don't be a sore winner. Ever since the Democratic primaries and Mr Dean, political dialog has been rather caustic but it is time for that to end. There is work to be done and the second Bush Administration has some serious tasks ahead of it.
King Felix
King Felix
post #27 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
Tolerance is just as right and wrong as facism...

Thats all the evidence I need. Im off to work now. Later.
post #28 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
hmmm.. pretty sure you'd be singing a different tune if the numbers were reversed.


wah wah wah. sore loser.


why thank you sir. you have the language of a true christian. i'm glad the party has taught you to behave exactly in line with the official party attitude. it's a good thing. now back to the discussion.

there can never be a majority of the entire country because simply, the entire country cannot vote. I have a brother, he's 12, he can't vote, do you think Bush represents him too? He didn't have a voice in this democracy. He didn't choose Bush or Kerry. So before calling people names, try and think a minute about what I said, and then, and only then, take the courage and speak out.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #29 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Conservative cultural Christians have secured Bush another 4 years.

This has more to do with the whole "gay" wedge issue Bush injected into this election than anyone will let on.

I would hope that the democratic party realize that they can not win without the Christian votes.

It seems clear as day that when the Republican party panders to the conservative Christians they win elections.

Fellowship

Fellowship,

The new knee-jerk thinking you display is very sad to see.

Bush doubled his support among African-Americans.

I suppose it is the bigoted-blacks who gave Bush the win.

Bush increased his support among women voters.

I suppose it is those hateful, evil women who will give Bush the win.

Bush will have gotten more than 50% of the popular vote. Something even Clinton could not do. You remember Clinton don't you? Don't ask, don't tell Clinton. He's there standing right next to "I have the same position as Bush on homosexual relations" Kerry.

Point your hateful, judgemental finger at yourself in the mirror. Maybe then you will be able to figure out that it is very doubtful homosexual marriage was the issue this election turned on. If anyone tried to make it a wedge issue it was the Democrats who attempted to cultivate hatred of homosexuals in an attempt to pry votes away from Bush/Cheney.

But keep lashing out, and keep watching your guys lose.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #30 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Anna Mated
Thats all the evidence I need. Im off to work now. Later.

And just like that you retreat to the presuppositions of modernism. How do you know that tolerance is correct? What does it mean to be correct? What constitutes rightness? Some things to think about.
King Felix
King Felix
post #31 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
By such reasoning, the US of A would not have had a legitimate government for well over the last hundred years. Moral of the story:

If you don't vote, you shouldn't complain. If you did vote, then your vote counts for more.

Yesterday, I had a conversation with one of my friends in mainland China. He can't vote. The Government hates him because he is a Christian. It is a blessing to vote and if people want to ignore that blessing and responsibility, then they shouldn't complain.

A legitimate government is one thing, a government that has the majority of the entire country is different. No government can have the majority of the entire country. They may have the majority of the electorate, but there are 150 million people that are NOT part of that electorate, and only about 120-40 million that are the electorate.

Is that clear, or do you want me to create a graph for ya'?
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #32 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
My wife and I are seriously considering moving overseas. We were considering this before today's election. But this only motivates us to look into it further.

How hard is it for an American to gain residency and find gainful work?

What do you do?
post #33 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
What do you do?

And where do you want to go ?

I'd recommend Spain, lived in Barcelona for years - am most likely heading back there in a few months myself. Or Seville.

If you're considering that you can PM me if you like.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #34 of 335
You see, that is the difference. Those of us who oppose Bush are truly and honestly frightened about the country's and the world's prospects under another four years of Bushco. Opposers of Kerry simply don't like him.
post #35 of 335
If the first 4 years of Bush's term was "compassionate conservatism," I'm scared of what his last term will be like, with a Republican dominated Congress. Goodbye ANWR, women's choice, gay rights and hello to billionare tax cuts, a never-ending war on terror, and "democratizing" oil-rich nations.

The Democratic party needs to reinvent itself. Badly. I thought this back in 2000, and it looks like nothing has really changed. This election has proven that Republicans can mobilize the Christian right much better than Democrats can mobilize luke-warm Kerry supports that dislike Bush.

Vote or Die? Say what? Where was my age group this year?
post #36 of 335
Yeah Bush! Okay, guess I should also say something after making such a comment. I have remained pretty silent on the issue, as this whole pointless arguing seemed to me, well, pointless so I have rarely shared my viewpoint. So yes I am happy at this point, and was genuinely scared by the possibility of having Kerry lead the country, as I feel a leader who acts on what is simply popular is a scary prospect. So please all of you realize there is more than one view on this issue, and I happen to side with Bush. Is it because I do not care about this country? Not at all! It is because I feel he has done a terrific job with Iraq (and what's scary is I almost spelled it iRaq) by following through. Unfortunate there were no WMD's, but I think he did the right thing by following the intelligence he had to the best of his abilities and standing by his decision. At the same time as all of this, I do not like Cheney nearly as much as I like Bush, but I guess that is what comes along with the deal. Guess this is the best way to describe my feelings/thoughts at 3:28 AM.
1 Peter 1:6-7
Powerbook G4 12" 1.33ghz, 60gig hd, 1.25 gigs ram.

Powermac G4 "Sawtooth" 400 mhz, 80gig hd, 384mb of ram, Rage 128 Pro graphics.
1 Peter 1:6-7
Powerbook G4 12" 1.33ghz, 60gig hd, 1.25 gigs ram.

Powermac G4 "Sawtooth" 400 mhz, 80gig hd, 384mb of ram, Rage 128 Pro graphics.
post #37 of 335
I do think, based on the exit polls, that values issues were a big part of the vote. I also believe, and this is just intuition, that it's difficult to elect a president who has basically expressed opposition to the war that we're currently fighting. In the end though, with the fact that only about half of eligible Americans vote, it's all about "get out the vote." I'd bet that more people in the country generally probably wanted Kerry to be president, but there are just more slackers among Democrats than Republicans. Those white married upper middle class folks just have their act together better than everyone else.
post #38 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I do think, based on the exit polls, that values issues were a big part of the vote. I also believe, and this is just intuition, that it's difficult to elect a president who has basically expressed opposition to the war that we're currently fighting. In the end though, with the fact that only about half of eligible Americans vote, it's all about "get out the vote." I'd bet that more people in the country generally probably wanted Kerry to be president, but there are just more slackers among Democrats than Republicans. Those white married upper middle class folks just have their act together better than everyone else.

I can't understand why voting in the US isn't compulsory. I believe everyone should have a say. Here in Australia, it is compulsory for everyone 18 or over to vote. m.
Killing me isn't going to help you. It isn't going to do me much good either, is it? -- The Doctor
Killing me isn't going to help you. It isn't going to do me much good either, is it? -- The Doctor
post #39 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Merovingian
I can't understand why voting in the US isn't compulsory. I believe everyone should have a say. Here in Australia, it is compulsory for everyone 18 or over to vote. m.

Because democracy means not having to participate in your own democracy if you don't really want to, apparently. Not that the UK, where I'm from, is any better of course.
post #40 of 335
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I'd bet that more people in the country generally probably wanted Kerry to be president, but there are just more slackers among Democrats than Republicans.

I wouldn't bet that. Maybe it is because I live in Texas, but I think the slackers and the 18 to 24 years are trending Republican.

Remember, rightness and wrongness at the level of Republican and Democratic "values" are not inherent human traits. The slackers and the young are trained it. The Republican game is much better than the Democratic one in doing that. It's talk radio. It's money. It's religious upbringing.

So, I wouldn't count on GOTV anymore. The Democratic party has to be reformed and reconstituted from the bottom up.
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