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post #121 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Did you mean to imply that killing half of everyone is an acceptable target?

Not at all, I was just taking the killing to an extreme to demonstrate that war does not have as big effect on the national debt as domestic spending.

Military spending during peacetime is 19% of the total budget of the Federal government. During wartime this jumps, but you can't have "forever war", there just isn't enough people to fight.
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post #122 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Not at all, I was just taking the killing to an extreme to demonstrate that war does not have as big effect on the national debt as domestic spending.

Military spending during peacetime is 19% of the total budget of the Federal government. During wartime this jumps, but you can't have "forever war", there just isn't enough people to fight.

I can't put my finger on it (not quite awake yet), but something in me makes me disagree with you.
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post #123 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Wars can't go on forever, we are too good at killing. If we kept up the current pace of wars for the next 20 years, everyone would be dead.

Therefore, even if it takes 5 or 10 years, the current "war fad" will be over, and domestic spending will have more effect on the budget than war.



That's the best reasoning for military spending I've ever seen. It pays for itself! If we kill everyone, there'll be no one left, so we won't ever have to fight wars again! It's supply-side economics, but for wars!

Hey! I've got an idea as to how we could keep having wars. We keep overthrowing governments and pissing off the populations of the countries we overthrow. Then, in another decade or two we could again go to war against the gov't that we had previously installed! It's what we did in the 20th century, so why stop in the 21st!
post #124 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell


That's the best reasoning for military spending I've ever seen. It pays for itself! If we kill everyone, there'll be no one left, so we won't ever have to fight wars again! It's supply-side economics, but for wars!

Hey! I've got an idea as to how we could keep having wars. We keep overthrowing governments and pissing off the populations of the countries we overthrow. Then, in another decade or two we could again go to war against the gov't that we had previously installed! It's what we did in the 20th century, so why stop in the 21st!

Most people that oppose "hot war" point to "cold war" as the model. Most of the wars you are talking about in the 20th centrury were part of the cold war - so you opposed that as well? What should we have done, just let Russia take over the world?

BTW - here is an interesting thing I found:

Conflict Cost in $ Billions Per Capita
Current 1990s (in $1990)
The Revolution (1775-1783) .10 1.2 $ 342.86
War of 1812 (1812-1815) .09 0.7 92.11
Mexican War (1846-1848) .07 1.1 52.13
Civil War (1861-1865): Union 3.20 27.3 1,041.98
: Confederate 2.00 17.1 2,111.11
: Combined 5.20 44.4 1,294.46
Spanish American War (1898) .40 6.3 84.45
World War I (1917-1918) 26.00 196.5 1,911.47
World War II (1941-1945) 288.00 2,091.3 15,655.17
Korea (1950-1953) 54.00 263.9 1,739.62
Vietnam (1964-1972) 111.00 346.7 1,692.04
Gulf War (1990-1991) 61.00 61.1 235.00


World War II cost $2 Trillion dollars.

Thats a lot.

There is a lot to be said about isolationism. If we had not intervened in WW I, it would have been fought to a stalemate, and WW II would not have happened. It looks like all of our current national debt would not exist if we had stayed out of the two world wars.

Maybe we should withdraw from the world military theater - bring all the troops home, let Japan, Europe and Israel pay for their own national defence for once, and form Japan, SK and Taiwon into a self-defence league against China and NK, and grant Guam its independence.
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post #125 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Most people that oppose "hot war" point to "cold war" as the model. Most of the wars you are talking about in the 20th centrury were part of the cold war - so you opposed that as well? What should we have done, just let Russia take over the world?

I wasn't thinking of the cold war per se, but the wars or coups that we've been involved in that blew back in our faces. Our support, military and otherwise, for previous regimes in Iraq and Iran, for example, and our involvement in the war between those two countries.
post #126 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I wasn't thinking of the cold war per se, but the wars or coups that we've been involved in that blew back in our faces. Our support, military and otherwise, for previous regimes in Iraq and Iran, for example, and our involvement in the war between those two countries.

That was all part of the cold war. Everything that we did between 1945 and 1980 was part of the cold war, you can't seperate out the middle east and say that was seperate.
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post #127 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Oh, we are. I just think it's hilarious that conservatives are so concerned over the fate of the Democratic party that they're offering all kinds of well-intentioned advice, most of which boils down to "You are clearly going to have to become Republicans in order to save the Democratic party."

That's laughable. I think my message has been, "You don't have to insult the people of the US in order to rebuild your party. You don't have to assure a defeat of the US in Iraq in order to save the party. You don't have to take up the cause of terrorists in order to save the party. You don't have to be for Bush but you must be for the US."
post #128 of 184
I wasn't talking about you specifically, Scott, but we can if you'd like. So here's your message:

Quote:
You don't have to insult the people of the US in order to rebuild your party. You don't have to assure a defeat of the US in Iraq in order to save the party. You don't have to take up the cause of terrorists in order to save the party. You don't have to be for Bush but you must be for the US."

Underpinning all of this, I'm assuming, is your firm belief that the Democrats are either doing these things or are in danger of doing them as they rebuild the party. Just to show you how absurd this is, consider this:

Dear Republicans of 1964:

You don't have to insult the American people to rebuild your party. You don't have to assure the defeat of the US in the cold war against the Commies in order to save your party. You don't have to take up the cause of the Commies in order to save the party.. You don't have to be for Johnson, but you must be for the US."
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #129 of 184
Look at the party. You have Dean declaring his pure hate for the other party. You have Kennedy declaring defeat in Iraq and advocating a course of action that will demoralize the troop, send Iraq into chaos and hand the terrorists a win. Make you wonder which side Kennedy is on? The "progressives" are the reactionaries by refusing to consider reforming any of the failing social welfare programs. The party is more worried about the rights of terrorist than the people killed by them. It's just a shame that the extreme elements of the party overshadow the common sense side.
post #130 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Look at the party.

Oh, I have. Believe me.

Quote:
You have Dean declaring his pure hate for the other party.

I suppose you're referring to this quote: "I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for," which Dean apparently said a few days ago. I can't find that quote in any mainstream news source other than the NY Daily News, which is sort of like only being able to find it the Limbaugh Letter. It looks as if the NYDN picked that up and ran with it, and then NewsMax picked it up, then the freepers.

Like I said, trouble it, no one else seems to have reported it. At all. Google shows the lineage I just described. Google News is similar.

Quote:
You have Kennedy declaring defeat in Iraq and advocating a course of action that will demoralize the troop, send Iraq into chaos and hand the terrorists a win.

So Kennedy, um, disagrees with Bush? And that's a problem for the party? Disagreeing with Bush? You beginning to get my point here?

Quote:
Make you wonder which side Kennedy is on?

If you are suggesting that Kennedy is siding with the terrorists, it is your duty as an American citizen to report him to the FBI. I expect that since you're willing to float such ideas, you're either going to do that or have done it already.

If you haven't, it's just cheap rhetoric that deliberately makes light of all this, and, if this is the case, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Quote:
The "progressives" are the reactionaries by refusing to consider reforming any of the failing social welfare programs.

Really? When you say "reform," I assume you mean "dismantle entirely." Imagine that the democrats not wanting the social programs to be dismantled. Again: the problem is that they disagree with Bush.

Quote:
The party is more worried about the rights of terrorist than the people killed by them.

This is absurd. Please prove to me that the Democrats have institutionally said somewhere that they are no longer as interested in the rights of Americans as they are in the rights of terrorists.

And frankly, I'm proud of the democrats for asking questions about terrorists' rights. Our country has set up internment camps where people are being imprisoned without charges or access to a lawyer. Our gov't will not tell us how many people is has done this to. Our gov't will not tell us who these people are.

This ought to worry you, but apparently it doesn't, since you're fulminating about Ted Kennedy.

Quote:
It's just a shame that the extreme elements of the party overshadow the common sense side.

Common sense about what? Disagreeing with Bush?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #131 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
It's just a shame that the extreme elements of the party overshadow the common sense side.

The irony is just too f-ing much.

That "with us or against us" mentality is like a stench that won't go away.

Good job Scott. I guess you'll have to double the anti-Dean propaganda from now on. I can't wait for the Rep character assassination campaign to intensify aided by the echo chamber of Kool-Aid drinking tools who "feed" off of Drudge, the NY Daily News and Fox.

Should be fun.
post #132 of 184
Dear Scott. Please send me your measurements. I would actually like to get you a proper uniform made. I'm thinking midnight blue / black, with big epaulettes, a little Republican elephant in white stitching, maybe with a bolt of lightning through it, on each collar and on the peaked hat.
post #133 of 184
Okay look at it this way. Your New England liberal that should have cake walked into the white house lost. So what do you do? Put a New England liberal that couldn't even win the primaries in charge of the entire party.
post #134 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Oh, I have. Believe me.



I suppose you're referring to this quote: "I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for," which Dean apparently said a few days ago. I can't find that quote in any mainstream news source other than the NY Daily News, which is sort of like only being able to find it the Limbaugh Letter. It looks as if the NYDN picked that up and ran with it, and then NewsMax picked it up, then the freepers.

Like I said, trouble it, no one else seems to have reported it. At all. Google shows the lineage I just described. Google News is similar.

...


That's pure fantasy on your part. I saw the video clip on TeeVee, Maybe this Google search will convince you that it's not a conspiracy on your own making but in fact what the head of the DNC said.

Gosh I wonder why the "mainstream news" wouldn't report on it? Hummm?
post #135 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
[B]That's pure fantasy on your part. I saw the video clip on TeeVee, Maybe this Google search will convince you that it's not a conspiracy on your own making but in fact what the head of the DNC said.

That's the same google news search to which I linked. Why is that supposed to change my mind that this is a non-story?

Quote:
Gosh I wonder why the "mainstream news" wouldn't report on it? Hummm?

If you're attempting to imply that the mainstream news isn't reporting on this because it is "liberal," you really need to take another a look at that list of agencies covering this. Not even FOX news touched this one.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #136 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Okay look at it this way. Your New England liberal that should have cake walked into the white house lost. So what do you do? Put a New England liberal that couldn't even win the primaries in charge of the entire party.

This is commentary from the same guy who cries when "liberals" stereotype, malign and make fun of people from the South.

Funny how an entire region of the United States is inferior to the rest. Goose. Gander. Hypocrisy?
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post #137 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
That's the same google news search to which I linked. Why is that supposed to change my mind that this is a non-story?


...

No it's not. You used "I hate republicans" where as I used Howard dean i hate the republicans

When you use the quoted string and leave the "the" out you don't get the right links.

Anyway Dean did say that so ... good luck with all those voters.\
post #138 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
When you use the quoted string and leave the "the" out you don't get the right links.

Well, it looks like the biggies are grabbing the quote now (e.g. the WSJ). Let the Republicans re-commence their attack on Dean! I'm all for it.

Quote:
Anyway Dean did say that so ... good luck with all those voters.\ [/B]

I never said Dean didn't say that. I said it was curious that no one but the fringe rags had picked it up. And thanks for the well-wishes. We'll see what happens in '06.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #139 of 184
So, as always, it's perfectly fine (and has no bearing on the future of the Republican party) for conservatives to endlessly bash "liberals" as terrorist sympathizers, America haters, crypto-homosexual elites, weak, feckless, and generally a festering sore on the body of the Republic.

Oddly, this does not constitute the Republican party alienating a large group of Americans, as "liberals" are understood to not be actual Americans at all, but somehow outside of the normative life of the true citizenry (they being the sturdy denizens of mystical heartland who carry what it really means to be an American in the proper genes of authenticity).

Of course, identifying "liberal elites" as an alien stain on the spotless expanse of the true partiotic fabric is facist thinking at its most overt; perhaps Scott could next argue "real Americans" can "no longer allow" the sinister erosion of "the people" by foreign influences and rootless cosmopolitanism and that the time has come to "do something".

After all, treason is a crime and that word has been repeatedly applied to "liberals", so why would a true citizen hesitate to take matters to their logical end and seek to have this cancer dealt with?

Particularly given the grotesque affront of one of "them" actually having the stones to criticize the very people who have been so very forebearing (so far) in allowing this vermon to carry on.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #140 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
So, as always, it's perfectly fine (and has no bearing on the future of the Republican party) for conservatives to endlessly bash "liberals" as terrorist sympathizers, America haters, crypto-homosexual elites, weak, feckless, and generally a festering sore on the body of the Republic.

Perhaps I don't see the full spectrum of American opinions you're referring to, but I do think there's a difference here.

The Repubs use third parties, bloggers, AM Radio, fake journalists etc. to slander their opponents. The Democrats use Hollywood and a lot of other creative outlets.

But both parties are usually wary about throwing mud through official channels.
Having the Chair of the Party pronounce his "hatred" for the other side is not only bizarre, but extremely bad tactics.

I think the "Dean is a loose cannon" train will be a regular, and the Repubs will ride it for all it's worth.

I say this not to bash the Democrats, but because I like competitive elections.
Take it from a Canadian, One Party Rule is disastrous for a country.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #141 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
The Repubs use third parties, bloggers, AM Radio, fake journalists etc. to slander their opponents.

Did you purposely leave out Televangelists, TV, the Fox editorial channel and paying off journalists to "promote" White House programs and policies?

I'm glad I'm not a Republican anymore. After the "furor" over the Clinton/Lewinsky blowjob and how we had to bring integrity back to the White House....I'd be ashamed to call myself one.
Quote:
The Democrats use Hollywood and a lot of other creative outlets.

There's just no comparison. You're comparing pros to little leaguers. Do you have any idea how many millions AM radio reaches every day(pretty effective when you repeat the same BS time and time and time again)? Televangelist fools conned to deliver voters?

And what are those other "creative outlets" you talk about? Find me anything on the Democratic side that remotely compares to the effectiveness(or reach) of repetitive AM radio delivered "messages" or Televangelists. Anything.
Quote:
Having the Chair of the Party pronounce his "hatred" for the other side is not only bizarre, but extremely bad tactics.

He wasn't the chair when he said that now was he? Oops. No he wasn't.

I'm not sure about Dean. He could be a disaster or he could very well be the catalyst that fires up the base of the Democratic party. The party needs change and "modernization". Not talking about technology either.
post #142 of 184
Maybe Dean was advised to "stop the crazy talk" when he became chairman? "Riiiiiight NOW!" The timing was perfect.
post #143 of 184
It cracks me to hear the most intollerant party faithfuls bitch about Dean's intollerance.

Simply hilarious.

Really. Keep it up guys.

These are the same party faithfuls who felt it perfectly justified to drag the Purple Heart through the mud, but support the military forcefully removing the medal from recent recipients in order to "protect the honor and dignity of the medal." The same party faithfuls who thought it was a hoot to wear Purple Heart bandaids at the Republican National Convention.

And these folks think they're the arbiters of good taste? Ha.

Is it any wonder why many of us on the left "hate" what you guys stand for?
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post #144 of 184
Those people aren't heading up the RNC.
post #145 of 184
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #146 of 184
Do we have any pictures of Dean and monkeys together?
post #147 of 184
wow. i've never seen so many people convinced they were right. i forgot how crazy political opinions are. nice name, e1618978
post #148 of 184
Maybe government controlled health care can cure Dean of his foot in mouth disease.

Quote:
"You think the Republican National Committee could get this many people of color in a single room?," Dean asked to laughter. "Only if they had the hotel staff in here."
post #149 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Do we have any pictures of Dean and monkeys together?

You mean, something like this?

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post #150 of 184
Yea but for Dean.
post #151 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Maybe Dean was advised to "stop the crazy talk" when he became chairman? "Riiiiiight NOW!" The timing was perfect.

Someone said the DNC chairman made certain specific comments. I corrected him...and you come up with that? Pretty weak Scott.

Gene: that pic is hilarious. Aaaahh...the internets.
post #152 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
I'm not sure about Dean. He could be a disaster or he could very well be the catalyst that fires up the base of the Democratic party. The party needs change and "modernization". Not talking about technology either.

No, it needs it in technology, too. I swear, I think I heard a mic pick up McAuliffe after the "internets" debate comment saying "Internets? What's his internets thing?"

Email. Blogs. Direct mail. Centralized distribution of talking points. Concentrated use of screaming heads who can flood the talk shows with talking points. A willingness to say the same things over and over again until they're covered. An understanding of the ways the republicans have taken advantage of the laziness of the mainstream media and used it to their advantage.
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post #153 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
No, it needs it in technology, too. I swear, I think I heard a mic pick up McAuliffe after the "internets" debate comment saying "Internets? What's his internets thing?"

Email. Blogs. Direct mail. Centralized distribution of talking points. Concentrated use of screaming heads who can flood the talk shows with talking points. A willingness to say the same things over and over again until they're covered. An understanding of the ways the republicans have taken advantage of the laziness of the mainstream media and used it to their advantage.

Well put. I completely agree. I didn't mean that the tech "modernization" wasn't necessary. Au contraire. With Dean in charge it's a given. When I said "modernization" I was thinking of the exact same things you so nicely described in your second paragraph.
post #154 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Well put. I completely agree. I didn't mean that the tech "modernization" wasn't necessary. Au contraire. With Dean in charge it's a given. When I said "modernization" I was thinking of the exact same things you so nicely described in your second paragraph.

Sure. We can only hope that he'll bring Matt Gross with him to lead some team. Gross hasn't said anything about it on his blog, but I suspect that he will be involved.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #155 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Someone said the DNC chairman made certain specific comments. I corrected him...and you come up with that? Pretty weak Scott.

Gene: that pic is hilarious. Aaaahh...the internets.

Howard Dean and the DNC Chairman are the same person.
post #156 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Howard Dean and the DNC Chairman are the same person.

But he said those things before he was DNC chairman.
You could just have easily said "The DNC Chairman shit in his diapers and wet his bed"
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post #157 of 184
I just keep wondering how much Dean must scare the Right for them to be going after the DNC chairman like this....
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post #158 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
But he said those things before he was DNC chairman.
You could just have easily said "The DNC Chairman shit in his diapers and wet his bed"

How soon before? When he was a baby?
post #159 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Howard Dean and the DNC Chairman are the same person.

Funny how you appear to be the only one who doesn't get it. I'd love to try and explain it to you ONE more time but .....
post #160 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
How soon before? When he was a baby?

Yes.
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