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Dean for D Chair - Page 2

post #41 of 184
Thread Starter 
http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/column.php?id=742

THT: I agree, Harry Reid is a terrible pick. The Democrats have learned nothing.
post #42 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Jubelum
And for the record, the people blasting water cannons and using police dogs on my relatives were... Democrats. And the only black on the Supreme Court? Appointed by a Republican. And the Bush tax cut went to all of us, not just white folk.

Parties change. The sons of those men blasting water cannons and using police dogs are Republicans.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #43 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
They also want education, health care, and decent jobs (talking about the legal ones).

Decent jobs?!?! From where exactly??? Oh, do you mean from those evil corporations the Dems are so hell bent on destroying or from the mom-n-pop shops that would be forced out of existence with some of the wonderful ideas the Dems have to regulate those businesses?

Can't have it both ways boys and girls... You can only pick one:

- low cost consumer goods and your dollar goes further
- high priced consumer goods and everyone has 'good jobs' and healthcare

Now Choose!

I for one don't wanna pay $10 for a bag of Apples and $6 for a gallon of Milk do you? (Hey at least I'm being honest)

Education **IS** the only answer - You want a good job?!?! Work your ass off like I did to learn something that will bring you a higher paying job with benefits. It didn't come easy for me, I had to work days and school at night and bum rides when my POS car died and couldn't afford to fix it but I managed and came out a better person for it. I expect nothing less from anyone else. 99% of the working-able could be doing the same thing - If they choose not to... thats their choice and they SHOULD live with it!

Giving handouts only encourages and rewards people taking the easy way out.

Dave
Apple Fanboy: Anyone who started liking Apple before I did!
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post #44 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveGee
Decent jobs?!?! From where exactly??? Oh, do you mean from those evil corporations the Dems are so hell bent on destroying or from the mom-n-pop shops that would be forced out of existence with some of the wonderful ideas the Dems have to regulate those businesses?

I believe the Democrats are for both evil corporations and small business.

Kerry's policy would have been not to have rewarded companies that outsourced, ie, creating a tax incentive for them to stay, not to go, otherwise he had much the same position as Bush for business. Everyone is pro-business in America. Every politician is pro-business in America.

Quote:
I for one don't wanna pay $10 for a bag of Apples and $6 for a gallon of Milk do you? (Hey at least I'm being honest)

Heh. At 4% inflation, milk will be $6 per gallon in less than 20 years. So, you won't have a choice.

Quote:
Education **IS** the only answer - You want a good job?!?! Work your ass off like I did to learn something that will bring you a higher paying job with benefits. ...

Giving handouts only encourages and rewards people taking the easy way out.

I violently agree with here. However, I don't think Bush has done anything to support it. He doesn't really support research and technology. For clarification, I think "education" means for people 14 and up. The K-8 stuff is, I don't know, too early to be stressing the kids. I think education is much more valuable post-puberty.
post #45 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveGee
Can't have it both ways boys and girls... You can only pick one:

- low cost consumer goods and your dollar goes further
- high priced consumer goods and everyone has 'good jobs' and healthcare

Explain my phone bill (and my phone bill with 2 previous companies) in a deregulated and so-called competitive field then.
post #46 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveGee
Decent jobs?!?! From where exactly??? Oh, do you mean from those evil corporations the Dems are so hell bent on destroying or from the mom-n-pop shops that would be forced out of existence with some of the wonderful ideas the Dems have to regulate those businesses?


I don't think Halliburton, United Defence, Unocal fit the mon-n-pop shop description you're giving.



Quote:
Can't have it both ways boys and girls... You can only pick one:

- low cost consumer goods and your dollar goes further
- high priced consumer goods and everyone has 'good jobs' and healthcare

Now Choose!


How 'bout we let the market choose, and don't give no-bid 7 billion dollar contracs and see what happens? I choose to not give 7 billion no-bid contracts. What do you choose?


Quote:
I for one don't wanna pay $10 for a bag of Apples and $6 for a gallon of Milk do you? (Hey at least I'm being honest)

So the way to do it is give Halliburton 7 billion dollars no-bid contracs? To make Unocal advisor Hamid Karzhai President of Afghanistan and Unocal adviser Iyad Allawi Prime Minister or Iraq?

Explain why would you pay $10 for a bag of Apples and $6 for a gallon of milk. You weren't born yesterday were you? Because as far as I know, milk was a lot cheaper in times of Clinton, and Apples were cheap as well. Lets not talk about gasoline, that's a no-brainer for those that are not living with a Dogma.


Quote:
Education **IS** the only answer - You want a good job?!?! Work your ass off like I did to learn something that will bring you a higher paying job with benefits. It didn't come easy for me, I had to work days and school at night and bum rides when my POS car died and couldn't afford to fix it but I managed and came out a better person for it. I expect nothing less from anyone else. 99% of the working-able could be doing the same thing - If they choose not to... thats their choice and they SHOULD live with it!


I ain't a latino, neither am I a minority. I'm currently in college, working my ass off as well, so why in the world are you telling ME what to do? I'm talking about the role of government in education, health care and regulating the market as to produce more jobs. Or do you think giving tax cuts to the schools is gonna do the trick?




Quote:
Giving handouts only encourages and rewards people taking the easy way out.

Dave


agreed, but kicking their ass and telling them to fuck off when they ask for services in return for their taxes, isn't gonna make good people either.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #47 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by THT
I violently agree with here. However, I don't think Bush has done anything to support it. He doesn't really support research and technology. For clarification, I think "education" means for people 14 and up. The K-8 stuff is, I don't know, too early to be stressing the kids. I think education is much more valuable post-puberty.

Well thank you!

I'd like to see Bush do more here as well... Hell, if we can teach kids that Billy has two mommies and Jane has two dads and then how to properly install a "Trojan Ribbed 'for her protection' Reservoir Tipped" prophylactic on a banana then why the hell don't we have them learning how to earn and handle money and how to properly prepare for the rest of their work and financial life. It's beyond me... Oh, and I'm not talking about a 'short course' at the end of their senior year as far as I'm concerned thats too late... I'm talking progressive classes that would start as soon as they hit high school.

Show them how money can grow...
Show them the difference in ones lifetime of low paying job and a 'good' paying job.
Show them how using credit cards can destroy you before you even get started

This stuff should be pounded into the brains of every kid long before they enter college!

My father was a smart man and decided to start teaching me about this stuff very early in my life (right around 14 I think) and over the years that I was in high school slowly expanded the teaching to include the stock market, bonds, real estate and the power of putting money away for the future. At the same time he also taught me how to RESPONSIBLY enjoy the money I had (all work and no play)... I got more out of his teachings then most everything I was taught in school.

I own a few homes now and have a substantial nest egg put away for me and my wife to retire on when we hit 55. All without one thin dime being given to me.

I just wish others knew the simple things I know...

Dave
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post #48 of 184
Education isn't simply how to make a living. We have a goal that at the end of our lives we have significantly contributed to humanity (in whatever way we see fit), in addition to improving ourselves. While life skills certainly are important, we also need to take a hard look at why school is so ineffective for most people.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #49 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Parties change. The sons of those men blasting water cannons and using police dogs are Republicans.

Not their sons - this isn't some distant geneological relationship. Those men themselves are all Republicans now. When Democrats refused to accomodate their "values" in the 60s, they switched parties and formed the Southern core of the re-born, "values-oriented" Republican party. If Republicans today can accept that, deal with it, and feel their party has really evolved beyond that, great. But they can't pretend it's not reality.

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
The Dems biggest fear: A black conservative Republican.

Alan Keyes does make many a Democrat shudder, but not in fear.
post #50 of 184
Quote:
The Dems biggest fear: A black conservative Republican. [/B]

How does "Chief Justice Clarence Thomas" sound?

(gnashing of teeth and wailing from the left...)
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post #51 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Education isn't simply how to make a living.

The problem is... With the current curriculum in our schools the kids aren't taught enough (or at all) on 'how to make a living' and 'how money works' (how the world works). Sure they're given the raw materials 'how to read', 'how to write', 'history', 'science', 'art' throw in a little 'Health & PE' - but RARELY are they shown successful recipes as to how best to utilize those raw materials in the real world (preferably while they are still taking those other classes) . Might be unpopular but extend the school day by 45 minutes once or twice a week and add one more class to the roster. Why NOT teach kids WHY it's important to lear instead of just telling them 'because it is'.

Also wouldn't it be nice to see more targeted public high schools that have a strong bent on a specific field - the sciences - law - technology - art and music - etc. These might only be realistic in populated urban areas but still something worth looking.

Dave
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post #52 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveGee
Also wouldn't it be nice to see more targeted public high schools that have a strong bent on a specific field - the sciences - law - technology - art and music - etc. These might only be realistic in populated urban areas but still something worth looking.

Dave

We do have those... I went to a science magnet High School. (And an arts/science magnet elementary). I learned the value of the dollar myself (realistically)...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #53 of 184
Thread Starter 
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/deanfordnc

Spread it around like a flu in an elevator!
post #54 of 184
Maybe you all should resurrect McGovern and see if he'll lead the DNC?
post #55 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Jubelum
Yep... he came down consistently for abortion.

Don't lie. It's choice that Democrats want. Freedom of choice.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #56 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
The Dems biggest fear: A black conservative Republican.

That's the dumbest thing I've read on these pages in the past two days. A black conservative Republican is just as stupid as a while conservative Republican. I don't fear either.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #57 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Jubelum
How does "Chief Justice Clarence Thomas" sound?

Like I said: dumb. That poor guy can barely articulate a thought. Scalia, as much as I disagree with him, at least has some active thought processes. CT follows Scalia's lead and that's it. Kinda sad really.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #58 of 184
Thread Starter 
post #59 of 184
Excellent move.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #60 of 184
Somewhere between total disaster and damaging blunder.
post #61 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Somewhere between total disaster and damaging blunder.

You hope.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #62 of 184
I think that you guys are making too much of the left/right thing. I am a libertarian - I almost voted for Bush, I would never vote for Kerry, but I would have voted for Dean if he had been nominated. I was really excited about him, because he has presence. Kerry is a boring and wishy-washy.

Dean has exciting ideas, Kerry does not.

Also, regarding the minority vote - the Republicans are getting more of that vote - Christian values (ug), anti-Union (the unions are old-boys clubs where you have to know somebody to get in, which means mostly black or white - not latin american), Immegration reform, heavy minority representation in cabinet.
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post #63 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You hope.


No I don't. Dean is a blunder. If he gives into the far left like he did when he campaigned it will drive even more people away from the Democrats.
post #64 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Explain my phone bill (and my phone bill with 2 previous companies) in a deregulated and so-called competitive field then.

The phone bill you are complaining about is your local bill, from a monopoly. In the deregulated long distance market, calls have dropped from $1.00 to $0.05 since deregulation.
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post #65 of 184
Remember his ham hands on the south? If you want to attract voters you don't do it by calling them racist gay bashing religious bigots.
post #66 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Remember his ham hands on the south? If you want to attract voters you don't do it by calling them racist gay bashing religious bigots.

Do you want racist gay bashing religious bigots in your party?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #67 of 184
Hay - how about this. Move further right than the Republicans. Gun rights, small government, pro-gay rights, isolationist military policy, free trade ("friends of everyone, allies of no one"), rational immegraion policy, legalise drugs, pay off the national debt, once the debt is paid off then lower taxes, drop the unions + teachers as the democratic base, promote school vouchers.

The Republicans will move left as a result. What we need is a liberal/anti-abortion/christian Republican party (the party that sucks), and a conservative/seperation of ch+state/pro-choice/gay rights/small government Democratic party.

Here is my logic: The only people you will lose are the current liberal christians, and you will gain a whole bunch of people from the Republican party that don't like the fundies very much.
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post #68 of 184
We are going to California, and deleware, and ill. ... and then we are going to Washington to take back the DNC HQ ... YEAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Lib melt down continues...
Dean+his control of the DNC purse+moveon+Micheal Moore v Clintons+old school Dem establishment...

the next few years should be fun...someone call Michael Buffer Lets get ready to rumble!!!

As for the republicans, we are in the cat birds seat, all we need to do is live and let die...
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #69 of 184
Does anyone here actually believe Ed Gillespie is a moderate? Honestly.

What I find even more humorous is when the conservatives on this board think they know what's best for the Democratic party. Like they have the party's best interest at heart. Ha.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #70 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Do you want racist gay bashing religious bigots in your party?

In just that one post you've revealed the complete blunder. You're assuming that white people from the south are that way. Your stereotype is insulting to the people there. Plus in one swipe he links and insults a wide range of voters. Brilliant?

What if Bush were to go to Berkley and say, "You people need to stop voting on Trees, Granola, and Pot."

Don't be pissed when Dean sinks it. You'll be lucky if he's out after the midterms.
post #71 of 184
Quote:
What I find even more humorous is when the conservatives on this board think they know what's best for the Democratic party. Like they have the party's best interest at heart. Ha.

I do have your best interests at heart - I want you to win, but first I want the democrats to change into a party that I can believe in. You are going to have to change to win, because there is no way that the Republicans are going to lose the next election against the current democratic party.

If you change, you have to decide what your "core values" are, and keep them the same. I think that the core values of the democratic party are social: pro-choice, gay rights, civil rights, women's rights, minority rights, religious freedom (which nessessarily includes seperation of church and state).

Now, if you keep those the same, and swing the rest of the platform over further right than the republicans, then I think that you will win. End the war on drugs, pull all the troops home (from everywhere), revise copyright law, school vouchers, dramatically reduce the size of government, etc.
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post #72 of 184
Looking at the Growing Southeast the Democrats have some big problems. If you look at those favorite issues of theirs like gay rights,gun control,removing any influence of god,etc and then look at things they dont seem to be interested in like keeping jobs in this country, the mexican border the growing govt. Its just not grass roots redneck nascar driving,beer drinking pie loving flag waving American.Its commie crap to those folks.
George could have been hit hard on so many things but because these guys are in the same big business pockets all they can do is run on those things I describe in the above paragraph. And that wont elect anyone for president.

It was their election to loose and that they did. Perhaps if Democrats ran on Jobs,Marriage,God,Border control,and smaller Govt they would do better. Middle America has more in common with the republicans then democrats even if they are being taken to the cleaners by Bush unkowningly.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #73 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Your stereotype is insulting to the people there. Plus in one swipe he links and insults a wide range of voters. Brilliant?

As someone born and raised in Mississippi, I would argue that Dean's comment was only offensive to the people who actually do vote for gays, guns, and God. The anger comes from what I call "redneck logic," which means that sometimes a redneck will be mad about something they've done that was stupid. Say they sawed their arms off. Then the redneck comes to you for sympathy, but you respond with an honest answer: that was pretty dumb of you to saw your arms off. Then the redneck gets pissed as hell at you.

What Dean *should* have said is that you folks in the South ought not let the Republicans treat you like you're so stupid that this is all you care about.

Does Dean understand the South? No. Does anyone? No.

If the Dems want to take back the South, which I firmly believe they can and should (they're going to lose California soon, and that there's the ballgame), they need to point out the ways that the right has defined the South into what amounts to little more than a caricature of itself. NASCAR! BEER! REG-LUR GUY! The South is, if anything, fiercely anti-authoritarian, and the right has tapped into this in ways that the left, well, has utterly screwed up. If the South is going to go Dem again, it's going to be because the Dems successfully paint the right as big gummit, big business, outsiders coming in here and telling us what to do. If the Dems want to win the South again, it'll be because they focus on local issues.

Anyway.

Quote:
Don't be pissed when Dean sinks it. You'll be lucky if he's out after the midterms. [/B]

If he sinks it, he sinks it, and that's fine. I want a massive schism in both parties. The Dems could move a little to the left and become true centrists. They could kick out all the fringe folks and fringe issues. Then a hard left minority party could emerge for them. The centrist dems could siphon off more than a few moderate Republicans (McCain, etc.).

Cheers
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #74 of 184
Cheers! heres to the regular guy party!
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #75 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
They need to move left, not right. They have no courage of conviction or ideals, though, so they won't. They are idiots, they are playing not to lose and end up never giving themselves a chance to win.

They could've made waves with Dean, instead they went with Captain Pointless with a record of 20 years of stagnant Senate work and a personality to match. What did they expect from Kerry? What do they expect from a party platform that is almost indistinguishable from their opponent's?

I hope another 4 years of Bush will make the Democrats realize that they need to be unapologetic about liberal values.

No, that's wrong. They must move center or face total extinction.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #76 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
In just that one post you've revealed the complete blunder. You're assuming that white people from the south are that way. Your stereotype is insulting to the people there. Plus in one swipe he links and insults a wide range of voters. Brilliant?

What if Bush were to go to Berkley and say, "You people need to stop voting on Trees, Granola, and Pot."

Don't be pissed when Dean sinks it. You'll be lucky if he's out after the midterms.

I am a white person from the south. And there are those people there, and in the north east etc etc. What the hell? If we can't admit that people like this exist, and they vote a certain way, then we really aren't better off than if they ran the country...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #77 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveGee
Can't have it both ways boys and girls... You can only pick one:

- low cost consumer goods and your dollar goes further
- high priced consumer goods and everyone has 'good jobs' and healthcare

I think this a bit of a false dilemma. Though I would say that if it wasn't it would seem rather immoral to allow other people to suffer so I can buy stuff cheaper.

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveGee
I for one don't wanna pay $10 for a bag of Apples and $6 for a gallon of Milk do you? (Hey at least I'm being honest)

This is a popular scare tactic used as an excuse to oppress people using low wages, poverty living conditions, poor or no healthcare. But it is also an assertion that is not really supportable by facts.

Both of your assertions appear to have the underlying presupposition that "wealth" is a "zero-sum" game in which if person A "wins" (gains) something then person B must "lose" something. This isn't necessarily so (though it certainly appears this way in the short-term).

Wealth is decidedly not a zero-sum game. In other words aggregate wealth can (and does) increase.

What we ought to be looking at are the "levers" that affect wealth creation, as well as the inhibitors of wealth creation.
post #78 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Don't lie. It's choice that Democrats want. Freedom of choice.

That's a joke. The Dems want freedom of choice as long as women are only presented with one option: abortion. When was the last time Democrats broached the subject of funding crisis pregnancy centres that allow pregnant women the means to keep their child?

Appointing a Planned Parenthood doctor as Chair of the party is literally handing the Religious Right a club to beat them over the head with.

And it's going to be fun to watch. The Democrats have truly learned nothing.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #79 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
No, that's wrong. They must move center or face total extinction.

Do you believe that Republicans run their campaigns from the center? Is anti-gay marriage a centrist issue? Is convincing American that voting for Kerry was an insurance policy for another terrorist attack a centrist position?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #80 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
That's a joke. The Dems want freedom of choice as long as women are only presented with one option: abortion. When was the last time Democrats broached the subject of funding crisis preganancy centres that allow pregnant women the means to keep their child?

Appointing a Planned Parenthood doctor as Chair of the party is literally handing the Religious Right a club to beat them over the head with.

And it's going to be fun to watch. The Democrats have truly learned nothing.

The democrats support both choices - abortion and keeping the child. It is astounding to me that you think othewise, nobody wants to force an abortion on somebody. Your argument made me choke milk through my nose.

If anyone would want "Crisis pregnancy centers", it would be the big-gub'ment Democrats. Oh wait - I forgot, the Republicans are even less financially responsible than the Democrats now - maybe you are right.

And to hell with the Religious Right - they are about 10% of the population, roughly the same percentage as gay people. The Democrats should (as I proposed above), form the party of "everyone but the Religious Right and communists".
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