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Fallujah

post #1 of 426
Thread Starter 
Well, they would never have done it before the election but it looks like they're not wasting any time now. Seems like it's going to kick off any minute and it won't be pretty.

They can't just bomb indiscriminately anymore from above - it didn't work. They're going to have to put troops on the ground and that's going to mean street to street fighting.

I suppose the rebels will have booby trapped the whole city as far as possible and of course they have the advantage anyway being the defending guerilla force in a city.

The military seem prepared for massive casualties. From the BBC:

Quote:
US and Iraqi officials say there are several thousand fighters holed up in the city, 50km (30 miles) west of Baghdad.

The Iraqi authorities say the fighters are highly organised and led by former army officers from Saddam Hussein's army.

The combat hospital at the main US base near Falluja has set up a morgue and doubled medical staff and supplies in preparation for an expected stream of casualties, AP reports.

Now is a good time to take a look at the hypocrisy of this before the killing starts and people get too excited.

1) The 'Zarqawi' ultimatum. This is a crock of BS. Even if he was there (which he isn't due to the fact that he is dead) then how could the populace hand him over ? If it takes massive battalions of Marines to take him out and the biggest assault of the war - htf are unarmed civilians who have been living under siege and been bombed to bejeezus every night for months supposed to do it ?

So the 'ultimatum' is really just a justification for murder.

2) In the quote above the military claim the targets are 'Saddam loyalists'. So not Zarqawi then. Get it straight if you're going to lie, always a good policy.

3) The civilians of the city have been under bombardment and being killed for months. Those that haven't have tried to escape. Some have succeeded. Even more are trying to escape now that the attack is imminent. Why don't they let them out ??????

Thus US is constantly parroting that Alawi is in charge of this operation - and maybe he is - not that that's any consolation as the puppet is an ex-Saddam executioner. Most likely this is why they stress his role, so the US can distance themselves if and when it gets messy.

People need to see this - however it pans out. This is what they voted for, they should sit and watch.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 426
Thread Starter 
Ok - so they just told civilians to flee the city - that's good. Scrub point 3 but the rest still stand.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #3 of 426
whoops, should read article before posting.!

WOW, how they gonna differentiate between an innocent male civilian and an insurgent male dressed in plain clothes?

I bet alot of civilians end up in Guantanamo.
post #4 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
And all the insurgents put down their arms, flee with the civilians and regroup somewhere else.

Way to go US military planning.!

Apparently many have already done that over the past month or so. But I think there are still a hardcore group who aren't going anywhere and are ready for a ruck.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #5 of 426
the US is talking about "groups" and "remnants", but those groups are thought to have at least 12,000 fighters.

we'll have to wait and see the next bloodbath of bushzilla and unocal advisors allawi + chalabi (although he is not very visual these days; keeping a low profile).
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #6 of 426
Thread Starter 
The 'rebel city'

Quote:
When I hear bombs falling around my neighbourhood, I keep thinking - any moment now, I could be killed. It is worst during the night, when the bombardment is most intense.

If a big bomb lands somewhere nearby, you often hear crying and wailing afterwards. It is a very strange feeling because in between the screaming, there is the sound of more missiles flying. That is when I think - I could be next.

Another sound you hear during the bombing is that of prayers. People pray loudly because they are so scared. Sometimes, you hear people say quite unusual things - they improvise, making up their own prayers.

We followed the US elections very closely from Falluja. It was a matter of life and death. Many people were hoping John Kerry would win because they felt he would not have allowed our city to be attacked like this.

Of course, we also know that the US policy in Iraq at large is not going to change. We do not forget that George Bush and John Kerry are two sides of the same coin. Still, as far as our city is concerned right now, a Kerry victory would have brought some hope.

I left my old house in the north of the city a month ago, when the Americans began bombing that area all the time. Now I live with a small group of friends near the centre of Falluja.

We are just men here. All our wives and children have left the city - some we sent to Baghdad, others to quieter areas closer by. We cook and eat together and spend most of our time in the house.

If you want to leave the house, the safest time to do so is between seven in the morning and one in the afternoon, when the Americans take a break from the bombing.

The souk [market] in the centre of Falluja is open from morning to midday and, fortunately, it has not run out of food so far. But I can't see how long the supplies will last - two days ago, the government said it was cutting off the roads from Falluja to Baghdad and Ramadi.

I don't know what we will eat then. I guess we might still be able to grab hold of some meat - I've seen a lot of goats in the city.

There is only one road out of the city that is still open now - but it runs through a checkpoint manned by US soldiers. We think they're going to cut this route off quite soon as well.

This used to be a city of 500,000 people. Now, my guess is there are about 100,000 still here. The hospitals I have seen are full of people but empty of supplies and medicine. The erratic electricity also makes operating difficult.

Ten to 18 new cases are brought in every day. The injured know they won't get much treatment. They come just to be near the doctor, to hear the doctor talk to them.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #7 of 426
Thank goodness the attack on Fallujah that *everyone* has been talking about for the last two months is going to start. Hopefully the foreign insurgents either die or are betrayed by the locals who don't particularly want a bloodbath.

Folks, please remember that it is ok to kill terrorists. Esp, terrorists who seem to delight in killing Iraqis.
King Felix
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King Felix
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post #8 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
Thank goodness the attack on Fallujah that *everyone* has been talking about for the last two months is going to start. Hopefully the foreign insurgents either die or are betrayed by the locals who don't particularly want a bloodbath.

Folks, please remember that it is ok to kill terrorists. Esp, terrorists who seem to delight in killing Iraqis.

Yeah, thank goodness.

Like you'd know what that is.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #9 of 426
I saw this image in a BBC article about the preparations for Fallujah. I think it says it all.




This one is just disturbing.



Now that the election is over, we are going to see a major get tuff policy. The administration pretty much has a free hand at this point. Of course, this mission is being controlled by the Iraqis and we are just helping out where we can.....
post #10 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
Thank goodness the attack on Fallujah that *everyone* has been talking about for the last two months is going to start. Hopefully the foreign insurgents either die or are betrayed by the locals who don't particularly want a bloodbath.

Folks, please remember that it is ok to kill terrorists. Esp, terrorists who seem to delight in killing Iraqis.

WOW!

.
.
.


Thank God indeed.
post #11 of 426
WRONG WAR

WRONG PLACE

WRONG TIME

I hope you're all fucking PROUD of yourselves.
post #12 of 426
Quote:
Hopefully the foreign insurgents either die or are betrayed by the locals who don't particularly want a bloodbath.

Remember that the civilian populace are the ones without guns. This may make handing the insurgents over rather tricky for them.
Stoo
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Stoo
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post #13 of 426
Where are they supposed to go?

How do you kick rebels out of your city?

God fucking damnit.

proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #14 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
Thank goodness the attack on Fallujah that *everyone* has been talking about for the last two months is going to start. Hopefully the foreign insurgents either die or are betrayed by the locals who don't particularly want a bloodbath.

Folks, please remember that it is ok to kill terrorists. Esp, terrorists who seem to delight in killing Iraqis.

Jesus. And you're the guy giving advise to the democrats about how to win elections.

You forgot to include "the democrats need to be more blood thirsty and in favor of indiscriminate killing of people who can be blithely written off as "terrorists" without having the faintest idea of who they actually are, because, like Jesus, the majority of Americans are sexually aroused by the idea of slaughter. This is what it truly means to be an evangelical christian. For the fatherland. For the folk. For the leader."
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #15 of 426
Quote:
U.S. warplanes pounded Fallujah late Friday in what residents called the strongest attacks in months, as more than 10,000 American soldiers and Marines massed for an expected assault.

Quote:
Military planners believe there are about 1,200 hardcore insurgents in Fallujah at least half of them Iraqis. They are bolstered by insurgent cells with up to 2,000 fighters in the surrounding towns and countryside.


This is a massacre of civilians who are opposed to American occupation of Iraq. They are not terrorists. This exercise is an attempt to put fear and awe into the populace (which is not going to work).

Quote:
terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear [syn: act of terrorism, terrorist act]

Who is the terrorist in this situation?

---------

I am sure that the promise of a free and fair election in January will pacify the tax payers funding this mass murder.

If only the US media had the courage to show real war footage and the truth instead of what the army wants to show you, the boob tube addicts will be enlightened. That won't happen this time around.

edit: linky1 linky2
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post #16 of 426
Unfortunately for conservatives there are no Terrorists in Iraq. There are foreign fighters fighting on the side of the Iraqi insurgents, but they're welcome and supported. They're not terrorists. They're not causing terror among the Iraqi civilians, they're fighting a war. The only people in Iraq that can be considered terrorists are people attacking Iraqi civilians, the rest of the people (military) are fair game. Our military are fair game, and those killing them are not wrong to do so.
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post #17 of 426
Thread Starter 
News coming in - looks like they've completely totalled a hospital run by a charity.

As usual no reports of casulaties.

So much for 'targetted precision bombings'. You've got to wonder whether or not they have a clue what they're doing ....and which is worse
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #18 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Unfortunately for conservatives there are no Terrorists in Iraq.

Not a single one, eh? Did the pied piper come through with his flute and lead them into Syria? Must be even safer than the USA then.

Don't say none. It just make your response look like knee-jerk wishful thinking with a political agenda.
post #19 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Not a single one, eh? Did the pied piper come through with his flute and lead them into Syria? Must be even safer than the USA then.

Don't say none. It just make your response look like knee-jerk wishful thinking with a political agenda.

If I understand Bunge correctly he was drawing a distinction between 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' and technically he is correct.

All the insurgency groups in Iraq are united in their aim of removing the Americans. Whilst some of these groups may have engaged in 'terrorism' elsewhere (al Qaeda for example in the west) they cannot be said to be engaging in 'terrorism' in Iraq according to the definition of what terrorism is - ie causing terror and trauma amongst a civilian population for a political end.

In fact, the only people doing that in Iraq are the US.

Of course one could argue that they are still terrorists even if not actively involved in terrorism in the present instance but that's not what I understood Bunge to be saying.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #20 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Not a single one, eh? Did the pied piper come through with his flute and lead them into Syria? Must be even safer than the USA then.

Don't say none. It just make your response look like knee-jerk wishful thinking with a political agenda.

Then don't be an ass about semantics.

I considered not using the term because it's an absolute, but I didn't think anyone would be dumb enough to take it as such. Obviously there are terrorists everywhere, in every country, including the U.S. When we use language we don't have to qualify everything we say because if we did every conversation would take a month to complete. Instead we use generalities that everyone understands and accepts.

Like the word "none". Obviously there are terrorists everywhere, in every country, including the U.S., so the term "none" will always be wrong in this situation. But because we all already know that by default it's "wrong", impossibly inaccurate, we accept the term as an exaggeration rather than a fact and we all read and comprehend the underlying meaning of the complete statement rather than the dictionary definition of the individual terms used.

It's called communication.
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post #21 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
If I understand Bunge correctly he was drawing a distinction between 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' and technically he is correct.

All the insurgency groups in Iraq are united in their aim of removing the Americans. Whilst some of these groups may have engaged in 'terrorism' elsewhere (al Qaeda for example in the west) they cannot be said to be engaging in 'terrorism' in Iraq according to the definition of what terrorism is - ie causing terror and trauma amongst a civilian population for a political end.

In fact, the only people doing that in Iraq are the US.

Of course one could argue that they are still terrorists even if not actively involved in terrorism in the present instance but that's not what I understood Bunge to be saying.

Thums up.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #22 of 426
Thread Starter 
Looks like it's kicked off.

This bit is reassuring:

Quote:
Colonel Gary Brandl of the United States Marine Corps commented:_
"The enemy has a face. It is Satan's. He is in Fallujah, and we are going to destroy him."

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #23 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Unfortunately for conservatives there are no Terrorists in Iraq.

Huh?

Quote:
11/3/2004: Terrorists took hostage 4 Jordanians in Iraq.

11/2/2004: Terrorists blew up an Iraqi oil ministry official.

11/2/2004: Terrorists blew up more than 12 people in Baghdad and elsewhere in Iraq.

11/1/2004: Terrorists blew up 15 people staying at a hotel in Tikrit, Iraq. 8 people were injured.

10/31/2004: Terrorists took hostage three election workers in Afghanistan.

10/31/2004: Terrorists blew up 7 people in a car bombing in Baghdad, Iraq. 19 people were injured.

10/30/2004: Terrorists beheaded a Japanese hostage in Iraq.

10/30/2004: Terrorists took hostage a Polish woman in Iraq.

10/18/2004: Terrorists beheaded 2 Macedonian hostages in Iraq.

10/18/2004: Terrorists blew up 12 people in two days in Baghdad and Mosul, Iraq.

10/11/2004: Terrorists blew up 2 Iraqis in Mosul, Iraq.

10/11/2004: Terrorists beheaded 2 Turkish contractors in Iraq.

10/10/2004: Terrorists blew up more than 10 people in Baghdad, Iraq. More than 15 were injured.

10/10/2004: Terrorists beheaded a British hostage in Iraq.

Quote:
Iraqis have become increasingly hostile to al Qaedas suicide bombing campaign. Religious leaders, which al Qaeda expects to get support from, have been openly denouncing these bombings. Iraqis, aware that they are more likely, than American soldiers, to be victims of these attacks, are providing more information on where the al Qaeda members are hiding out. Most of the al Qaeda in Iraq are foreigners, and easy for Iraqis to detect. As a result of this, many of the al Qaeda men have moved back to Fallujah, which has become a terrorist sanctuary. The interim government is trying to convince the tribal and religious leaders of Fallujah to back a military operation in the city to clear out the various al Qaeda, criminal and Baath Party gangs. But the gangs of Fallujah are quick to threaten any local leader that shows signs of supporting the government. While the Fallujah leadership is intimidated, many residents of Fallujah are not, and are providing information to the coalition, which has led to attacks, with smart bombs or coalition and Iraqi troops, on buildings used by al Qaeda, or other gangs, as headquarters.

In the interest of a 'fair and balanced' view:

Quote:
With increased bombing of soft targets and daily killings of US troops, the Bush administration characterizes the Iraqi armed resistance as a terrorist phenomenon. Although this has emerged as a major obstacle to reconstruction in Iraq, the reality is too much more complex and dangerous to simply broad-brush it all as "terrorism."

Armed resistance in Iraq represents a broad spectrum of political and ideological forces that need to be understood individually before they swell, coalesce, and become a major threat. The perception in Washington that attacks against US forces and other targets are conducted mainly by hardened elements of the old Saddam Hussein regime - along with Ansar al-Islam, a small fundamentalist Kurdish group with no proven ties to Hussein - is dangerously myopic.

Though elements of the Hussein regime predominate, other important groups - whose interests converge with those of the old regime - play vital roles. Secular Baathists, indigenous Iraqi fundamentalists, Arab Islamists, and dissatisfied Iraqis all resist the US occupation.
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post #24 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by iPoster
Huh?





In the interest of a 'fair and balanced' view:


Are you just reciting what Bush and his Neo-Cons are blathering? That's a very objective side of an argument, as Bush and his Neo's ain't engaging in a war with them so-called insurgents, therefore have no reason to label people terrorist as to justify their occupation and destruction of a sovereign country.

Oh how typical.
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post #25 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Are you just reciting what Bush and his Neo-Cons are blathering? That's a very objective side of an argument, as Bush and his Neo's ain't engaging in a war with them so-called insurgents, therefore have no reason to label people terrorist as to justify their occupation and destruction of a sovereign country.

Oh how typical.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. It comes down to semantics. Are some in Iraq employing terrorism? Yes. Are they all resistance fighters fighting for their homes against an evil occupier? No. Obviously Bush Co. is going to label them all 'terrorists' so their war is noble and just, but on the other hand, there are some fighters over there who don't give a damn about Iraq or it's future, as long as they get to kill the infidels.

Not everything is black and white in war, just many shades of grey...
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
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post #26 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by iPoster
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. It comes down to semantics. Are some in Iraq employing terrorism? Yes. Are they all resistance fighters fighting for their homes against an evil occupier? No. Obviously Bush Co. is going to label them all 'terrorists' so their war is noble and just, but on the other hand, there are some fighters over there who don't give a damn about Iraq or it's future, as long as they get to kill the infidels.

Not everything is black and white in war, just many shades of grey...


All I saw in your post was what Bush and his Neo-Cons are saying. It wasn't exactly gray.
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post #27 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
All I saw in your post was what Bush and his Neo-Cons are saying. It wasn't exactly gray.

Apparently you didn't bother to read the last part of my post. It is the exact opposite of BushCo.'s position.
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post #28 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by iPoster
Apparently you didn't bother to read the last part of my post. It is the exact opposite of BushCo.'s position.

No, I did read it, but that did not present anything new to the argument. Calling people religious fundemntalists just because they oppose the occupation ain't exactly presenting a different view.

But, I guess that that is a subjective matter as well. Nothing personal intended. I apologize if I was too harsh.
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post #29 of 426
Thread Starter 
I'm hearing that there is fighting already. Details unclear but apparently the insurgents have blown up a bridge.

I guess we'll hear soon. Or perhaps not. Apparently it may have been going on since this morning.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #30 of 426
If anything, I'm surprised the guerrillas are not doing more damage than what they do at present. Not in Falluja though - IMO if they have a brain they will flee Falluja along with the civilians, what's the point of fighting a fair fight even if you'd get to be the defender?

In the areas where the US has less battle-ready presence than in Falluja, they could be sniping, assassination style. This needs very little training, just a normal rifle like the AK, few times to the range and a bit of common sense (tactics). You could work in two man teams with no external information source, hit an average of a couple random uniformed people every day and have very, very little risk of getting caught. Consider how difficult it was in the US, a relatively stable society whose citizens will readily help the police, to catch a single rifleman a little time ago. For a number of reasons, I don't think they are in a position to do much detective work in Iraq. To get caught, the shooter would basically have to run into the police, National Guards or US troops while still holding a rifle.

I wonder, are the US troops simply not making patrols that would expose them, is such activity happening but not made public, or what is the reason there isn't more of this happening?

Both in Falluja and elsewhere, they could be making booby traps wherever they think US soldiers might storm a house. How do you avoid a run-of-the-mill handgrenade-string trap even if you know to expect one? Every door, every window can be rigged up to explode when you open it, which you need to do in order to search the area. I'm not sure even bomb experts with plenty of time and equipment could do this with certainty. A tired Marine clearing the sixth house in a row, ready to face gun-toting insurgents? I don't think he has a chance.
Again, we're talking about one handgrenade, some string or fishing line, and a little bit of common sense.
post #31 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
If anything, I'm surprised the guerrillas are not doing more damage than what they do at present. Not in Falluja though - IMO if they have a brain they will flee Falluja along with the civilians, what's the point of fighting a fair fight even if you'd get to be the defender?

In the areas where the US has less battle-ready presence than in Falluja, they could be sniping, assassination style. This needs very little training, just a normal rifle like the AK, few times to the range and a bit of common sense (tactics). You could work in two man teams with no external information source, hit an average of a couple random uniformed people every day and have very, very little risk of getting caught. Consider how difficult it was in the US, a relatively stable society whose citizens will readily help the police, to catch a single rifleman a little time ago. For a number of reasons, I don't think they are in a position to do much detective work in Iraq. To get caught, the shooter would basically have to run into the police, National Guards or US troops while still holding a rifle.

I wonder, are the US troops simply not making patrols that would expose them, is such activity happening but not made public, or what is the reason there isn't more of this happening?

Both in Falluja and elsewhere, they could be making booby traps wherever they think US soldiers might storm a house. How do you avoid a run-of-the-mill handgrenade-string trap even if you know to expect one? Every door, every window can be rigged up to explode when you open it, which you need to do in order to search the area. I'm not sure even bomb experts with plenty of time and equipment could do this with certainty. A tired Marine clearing the sixth house in a row, ready to face gun-toting insurgents? I don't think he has a chance.
Again, we're talking about one handgrenade, some string or fishing line, and a little bit of common sense.

Err... I'm hearing reports of dead GI's and massive numbers of dead iraqi police and soldiers every day. Are you not getting these news?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3990141.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3989671.stm
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post #32 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
All the insurgency groups in Iraq are united in their aim of removing the Americans. Whilst some of these groups may have engaged in 'terrorism' elsewhere (al Qaeda for example in the west) they cannot be said to be engaging in 'terrorism' in Iraq according to the definition of what terrorism is - ie causing terror and trauma amongst a civilian population for a political end.

In fact, the only people doing that in Iraq are the US.

Technically, I think there is a degree of "terrorism" in about all public military action, because there is an implicit possibility of death and damage to civilians and property. If the military is the one acting and not the police, that alone implies there is going to be more use of force.

Furthermore, the insurgents are not just fighting Americans. They are fighting the US-instated temporary government and its officials, like the police, politicians and IIRC office clerks as well. These are all civilians in theory and more or less civilians in practice. All this is terrorism.

Though the Iraqi police and administration officials are civilians, I find it understandable that they are under attack along with the National Guard. They are a part of the local power structure the US set up. They are used against the insurgents, because what the insurgents are doing are technically crimes under the laws, again set up by the US, while in the insurgent mindset the temporary government is illegimate.

The US is making an important tradeoff here: how much to defend the officials from the insurgents, which would position the US troops as much easier targets, which might shift the majority of attacks from the civilians on US troops. I think the US values its troops far above protecting the officials and keeping the peace, effectively when not explicitly using the locals as cannon fodder. This might prove to be a mistake. Think about it, what message does it send? If it is easy for would-be Iraqi politicians to arrange "terrorist attacks" on their political opponents, will a government built under such conditions end up a democracy? Will the ones in charge be the ones that got the rest killed? Or are the lower echelons all dispensable, and the higher ups under US' wing?
post #33 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Err... I'm hearing reports of dead GI's and massive numbers of dead iraqi police and soldiers every day. Are you not getting these news?

I am getting the news and I have looked at the statistics. I'm astonished of how few the US soldier fatalities are. The way I picture things, just a couple of insurgents with rifles and a brain should manage this much a day. There are supposed to be massive amounts of insurgents and they definitely have explosives and equipment, yet they are not making a dent in US forces. As a soldier in Iraq, you are not statistically under much of a risk of being shot to death. IIRC, less so than in some of the bigger cities back home in the US.
post #34 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
I think the US values its troops far above protecting the officials and keeping the peace, effectively when not explicitly using the locals as cannon fodder.

I think you meant "while not explicitly" not "when", but I've been saying this since Afghanistan and all of the conservatives here have been saying the millitary has done everything possible to save civilians. I think someone has to have on serious blinders to think we're doing everything possible to save the civilians or officials.
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post #35 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
I am getting the news and I have looked at the statistics. I'm astonished of how few the US soldier fatalities are. The way I picture things, just a couple of insurgents with rifles and a brain should manage this much a day. There are supposed to be massive amounts of insurgents and they definitely have explosives and equipment, yet they are not making a dent in US forces. As a soldier in Iraq, you are not statistically under much of a risk of being shot to death. IIRC, less so than in some of the bigger cities back home in the US.

True, They are probably very well protected. Because the insurgents are slaughtering the local police.
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post #36 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I think you meant "while not explicitly" not "when", but I've been saying this since Afghanistan and all of the conservatives here have been saying the millitary has done everything possible to save civilians. I think someone has to have on serious blinders to think we're doing everything possible to save the civilians or officials.

I meant what I said, though maybe the gov't would have to print "bomb me" on the policemen's uniforms to make the cannon fodder status explicit.

The US military is correct when they say they have done their part to minimize civilian casualties. When they say that, they mean they do their best not to shoot or bomb a civilian to death. This is the extent of their responsibility. The US politicians are the ones responsible for not doing more, and issuing the military orders to protect the US-friendly locals from attacks. It's their decision. Please blame the right people.
post #37 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
If I understand Bunge correctly he was drawing a distinction between 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' and technically he is correct.

No, there can be freedom fighters AND terrorists, but the extreme left-wingers and right-wingers here see only black and white.
post #38 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
No, there can be freedom fighters AND terrorists, but the extreme left-wingers and right-wingers here see only black and white.

But someone in Iraq fighting with Iraqi insurgents and attacking U.S. soldiers is not a terrorist.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #39 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
The US politicians are the ones responsible for not doing more....

Certainly. I don't think I've implied anyone else is to blame.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #40 of 426
Thread Starter 


This is not a Crusade or war against Islam. No way.

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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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