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Fallujah - Page 11

post #401 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Fighting - standing up for, upholding, to whatever extent is necessary at the time. I suppose it could cover a wide range of action.

Yes, but it can be done the right and the wrong way. Mandela and Gandhi are good examples.

Quote:
[i]Stealing in actually OK?

oh yes. Robin Hood was my favorite cartoon as a kid. Mordecai Vanunu is a good contemporary example.

Iraq itself is a byproduct of western policies. SH would never have been where he was without help from the west...
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post #402 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You made the point that i was getting at

No, your 'definition' of 'truth' and series of interpretive questions just demonstrated your inability to understand anything addabox said in his post. In fact, you completely proved his point.
post #403 of 426
Naples X : care to adress my post.
I am getting a little upset.
Don't play with me. I am not a mice.
post #404 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Yes, but it can be done the right and the wrong way. Mandela and Gandhi are good examples.


oh yes. Robin Hood was my favorite cartoon as a kid. Mordecai Vanunu is a good contemporary example.

Iraq itself is a byproduct of western policies. SH would never have been where he was without help from the west...

This is a list of companies that supplied Saddam. It at the German newspaper Des TagesZeitung.

You will see that the US heads the list with 24 companies involved as opposed to France's 8. France is also eclipsed by the UK (another of the 'good guys') at 17.

This is the list that was given to the US security council btw.

This issue is coming to a head. In Holland, a Dutchman Frans Van Anraat has been charged with assisting genocide by the Dutch government on suspicion of of delivering thousands of tons of raw materials for chemical weapons to Baghdad between 1984 and 1988.

Quote:
The United Nations suspects the man was a major chemical supplier to Saddams regime, having made 36 separate shipments, including raw materials for nerve gas and mustard gas originating from the United States and Japan

Note that last bit. I'll bold it for Naples nerve gas and mustard gas originating from the United States and Japan.

Unfortunately it will be necessary to clarify this a bit for our friend too.

Simplified points:

The guy is Dutch but that does NOT implicate the Dutch government.

When you speak of 'France' in relation to that list you speak of French nationals and businesses NOT the country or its government.

Following on from this the Dutch are serving justice by arresting one of their nationals for his business dealings.

If the US and others follow suit then justice will be done.

If, however, a government does not act on this issue whereas others do, then their integrity will be in question.

If any are found to be protecting the criminals - for that is what these businessmen are - then they will be complicit and an accessory.

It's time to clean up some of the filth that has accumulated.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #405 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Wait a minute.

I present an opposing view to your views - and when i say your, I mean all of you that inserted your thoughts into the conversation, Was that like 10 of you, each completing the other's thoughts and sentences? Like a well oiled tag team wrestling crew, or perhaps better yet, like robots tied to the mother-ship. I actually had to reread the thread a few times just to figure out who I was really replying to.- I am the only 'conservative" according to you, that has the balls or sheer stubbornness or flat out brain damage, I don't know which, to stick around and slug it out with those odds, and you want to then say I'm not capable of forming an independent thought?

The irony overload!

FormerLurker: you
Giant: are
Jimmac: not
segovius: capable
powerdoc: of
addabox: independent
all: thought! OH, yeah. Bush lied.
Jimmac: OUT THE DOOR IN 2004!
Giant: GFY
all: HA HA HA HA



Talk about funny.


Funny you should say that because it seems like you've bought the Bush story hook, line, and sinker without even consideration. More over when you are presented with evidence to the contrary you effectively stick your fingers in your ears and go " La, la, la, la, ".
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #406 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
This is a list of companies that supplied Saddam. It at the German newspaper Des TagesZeitung.

You will see that the US heads the list with 24 companies involved as opposed to France's 8. France is also eclipsed by the UK (another of the 'good guys') at 17.

This is the list that was given to the US security council btw.

This issue is coming to a head. In Holland, a Dutchman Frans Van Anraat has been charged with assisting genocide by the Dutch government on suspicion of of delivering thousands of tons of raw materials for chemical weapons to Baghdad between 1984 and 1988.



Note that last bit. I'll bold it for Naples nerve gas and mustard gas originating from the United States and Japan.

Unfortunately it will be necessary to clarify this a bit for our friend too.

Simplified points:

The guy is Dutch but that does NOT implicate the Dutch government.

When you speak of 'France' in relation to that list you speak of French nationals and businesses NOT the country or its government.

Following on from this the Dutch are serving justice by arresting one of their nationals for his business dealings.

If the US and others follow suit then justice will be done.

If, however, a government does not act on this issue whereas others do, then their integrity will be in question.

If any are found to be protecting the criminals - for that is what these businessmen are - then they will be complicit and an accessory.

It's time to clean up some of the filth that has accumulated.

This dutch connection was before the first gulf war and correct me if I'm wrong before UN sanctions. So, circumstances and laws were different then, So, I am not sure what the point is. More obfuscation.

That article is the worst piece of journalism ever. I didn't see a source (maybe I missed it in the translation) there was no time frame specified and there was no link back to the original article that it was supporting. I don't think that was even a news paper it may be a periodical of sorts.

Surely there is an english link somewhere.
post #407 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Naples X : care to adress my post.
I am getting a little upset.
Don't play with me. I am not a mice.

I will. I keep gettting distracted.
post #408 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
That article is the worst piece of journalism ever.

ClintonBodyCountX just attacked someone's source. Not enough animated gifs for you, huh?
post #409 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
ClintonBodyCountX just attacked someone's source. Not enough animated gifs for you, huh?

Man, It is in german!
I don't read german. I had to use the sherlock translator to even come close to understanding it.

What I stated about it is true as far as I can see. I cant even navigate the site because it is all in german with no english version that i can see. Give me a break!
post #410 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Man, It is in german!
I don't read german. I had to use the sherlock translator to even come close to understanding it.

What I stated about it is true as far as I can see. I cant even navigate the site because it is all in german with no english version that i can see. Give me a break!

Ok. Found you another page about it in English and I will explain it some more.

Basically this report is the uncensored version of Saddam's 12,000 page report to the UN in 2002 - remember that ?

It was leaked to Des Tageszeitung in uncensored form and they published it.

It details involvement over a wide period of time, from prior to 1991 onwards.

Now this is old news from 2002 - in fact it never was news because the story mysteriously fizzled out but I mention it here for two reasons:

1) To point out the stupidity, (if any further proof were needed, of your French fixation (could it be sexual ? The French do have a reputation in that area).

and

2) It will doubtless be re-emerging in the light of the Dutch arrest and trial - all sorts of things could bubble to the surface and you won't find any of them to your taste I'm sure.

English data is here
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #411 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Ok. Found you another page about it in English and I will explain it some more.

Basically this report is the uncensored version of Saddam's 12,000 page report to the UN in 2002 - remember that ?

It was leaked to Des Tageszeitung in uncensored form and they published it.

It details involvement over a wide period of time, from prior to 1991 onwards.

Now this is old news from 2002 - in fact it never was news because the story mysteriously fizzled out but I mention it here for two reasons:

1) To point out the stupidity, (if any further proof were needed, of your French fixation (could it be sexual ? The French do have a reputation in that area).

and

2) It will doubtless be re-emerging in the light of the Dutch arrest and trial - all sorts of things could bubble to the surface and you won't find any of them to your taste I'm sure.

English data is here

Including Bechtel?!
and Honeywell?!?!

Whooda thunk?
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--Franklin Miller.

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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #412 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Ok. Found you another page about it in English and I will explain it some more.

Basically this report is the uncensored version of Saddam's 12,000 page report to the UN in 2002 - remember that ?

It was leaked to Des Tageszeitung in uncensored form and they published it.

It details involvement over a wide period of time, from prior to 1991 onwards.

Now this is old news from 2002 - in fact it never was news because the story mysteriously fizzled out but I mention it here for two reasons:

1) To point out the stupidity, (if any further proof were needed, of your French fixation (could it be sexual ? The French do have a reputation in that area).

and

2) It will doubtless be re-emerging in the light of the Dutch arrest and trial - all sorts of things could bubble to the surface and you won't find any of them to your taste I'm sure.

English data is here

The report is from 1975 up to the early 90's, 1991 if I read it correctly.

Perhaps I am wrong, but in that period Iraq was an ally to the US. Sales of those materials would not have been illegal. They were before sanctions and before the first gulf war AFAICT.

Here are some interesting quotes from the initial news report this generated:

"British officials said the list of companies appeared to be accurate. Eighty German firms and 24 US companies are reported to have supplied Iraq with equipment and know-how for its weapons programmes from 1975 onwards and in some cases support for Baghdad's conventional arms programme had continued until last year."

"German involvement outstripped that of all the other countries put together, the paper said. During the period to 1991, the German authoritiespermitted weapons co-operation with Iraq and in some cases "actively encouraged" it, according to the newspaper which cited German assistance allegedly given to Iraq for the development of poison gas used in the 1988 massacre of Kurds in northern Iraq. It said that after the massacre America reduced its military co-operation with Iraq but German firms continued their activities until the Gulf War."

And Seg you were way wrong. The germans have much more to answer for, in this one. Read it yourself.

Oh yeah, I have a problem with France post sanctioned Iraq and their in worldwide corruption through the UNscam OFF program.
post #413 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Oh yeah, I have a problem with France post sanctioned Iraq and their in worldwide corruption through the UNscam OFF program.

So then you must have a problem with Cheney since his company did business with Iraq between 98-2000.
post #414 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Don't take me for an idiot, you just admited to know what post I was refering to, by saying it's vague.

The previous quote to this was vague. Come on.

Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
My point is based upon the motivations of the crime.
France was the third military contingent (15 000 soldiers) during the first gulf war, why she is wanting to help SH, later ?

Ask your politicians.

Perhaps money, power, oil, greed... who knows.

Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
SH is very unpopular in France, like in most occidental countries, supporting SH will be very unpopular, and would have been a scandal. Why French official would support this guy ?

Some did, Ask them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
You said by your own words that France always raged against US. The history said otherwise : read an history book : vietnam, Korea, Cuba, first gulf war, the Kosowo war.

Maybe I should clarify, the French Press, the French elite they are very anti-american.

Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
You said that I have an agenda with Bush, why did I supported the Afghanistan war and said it was good here on AI ?

Who knows. Why don't you tell us.

Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Now speaking of the truth coming from the Washington time. As Giant said, it's not very reliable, and Giant gave many examples. I will emphasize, that lately I do not see anymore such articles in US classicle newspapers. Why Bush will want to save France's ass, by censoring such articles (press is supposed to be independant in US too).

It is. And I quotes many articles on the subject in the past two months. I can post more if you like.

Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
NO WOMD where discovered, Blair admitted that there was no WOMD, like the US inspectors Question why the best friend of US (Blair) admitted it ?

Right. No WMD DISCOVERED in Iraq... yet. There is still plenty of ground there unsearched.

Look. If you think you are right then stick to your position. I disagree. Fair?
post #415 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
So then you must have a problem with Cheney since his company did business with Iraq between 98-2000.

Ok first off. It's not his company.

Second, what business, please specify?

If it was business that was banned, then yes I have a problem with that.
post #416 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Ok first off. It's not his company.

OK first off. Learn how to. Use your native language Thanks.

Second, he was CEO.

Third, stop demanding that people to do everything for you. At one point you (hopefully) had to learn to wipe yourself, so just think about this as your next step toward independence.
post #417 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
OK first off. Learn how to. Use your native language Thanks.

Second, he was CEO.

Third, stop demanding that people to do everything for you. At one point you (hopefully) had to learn to wipe yourself, so just think about this as your next step toward independence.

Just give me a lowdown. You wasted words on condescension, when you could have just typed a couple of sentences to explain what you mean.

A link is even easier if you have it handy, no?
post #418 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
The previous quote to this was vague. Come on.

Ask your politicians.

Perhaps money, power, oil, greed... who knows.

Some did, Ask them.

Maybe I should clarify, the French Press, the French elite they are very anti-american.

Who knows. Why don't you tell us.

It is. And I quotes many articles on the subject in the past two months. I can post more if you like.

Right. No WMD DISCOVERED in Iraq... yet. There is still plenty of ground there unsearched.

Look. If you think you are right then stick to your position. I disagree. Fair?

1) Your opinion is based upon the sole assumption that what you read in some press is accurate. I note that such articles did not exist in the french or german or many others european press. I am suprised that a part of the french press who love scandals don't relate this one.
I have just hear comments on the part of the press, complaining of such attacks.
If you want to convice me that the french officials were that corrupt with Iraq, you have to give me others proofs, than the one coming from a press who can't stand France.
I don't think that I will convice you of anything, if I refered to ultraleft or ultraright winged french press concerning US. I will not even convice my self of anything reading such press.

2) For the WMD thing, you can always expect. I will say that you belong to a growing minority.

3) you are entitled to disagree and stick to your position also. But it's a forum of discussion, we are supposed to discuss.

4) the french press is bipolar, as the US one.

The left press is not pro american, as it represent capitalism, something that the left do not value much. The word anti american is too strong when it applie for the moderate left.

The right press is not anti-US for the reverse reasons : the right value capitalism, and US is one of this symbol. This said the right press, do not agree with everything that the US do. Anyway the word anti american for the right press is innacurate.

5) I don't know what you are refering to, by Elite. If you are refering to some "intellectuels de gauche", you are right, but I will say that they are elite only by their own standarts. Now if you are refering by politicians you are wrong , there is a wide spectrum, varying from the proBush to the Bush haters.
post #419 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Right. No WMD DISCOVERED in Iraq... yet. There is still plenty of ground there unsearched.



post #420 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Just give me a lowdown. You wasted words on condescension, when you could have just typed a couple of sentences to explain what you mean.

A link is even easier if you have it handy, no?


Just the " wasted words " here is at the heart of the matter.

He doesn't want to debate his point. He just wants the last word.
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post #421 of 426
Thread Starter 
US blitzing Fallujah again

Correct me if I'm wrong but surely this implies one of the two following propositions:

1) The US lied when they said the insurgents have gone and are now back to the old Blitzkrieg method to save face after a massive and ignominious failure.

Or

2) The US told the truth when they said the insurgents have gone and are now back to the old Blitzkrieg method against the civilians they say are returning - prior to the Third reich methods being installed as discussed in the 'Police State' thread.

Looks like the insurgents are back in control anyway:

Quote:
At the end of the day, Iraqi Resistance forces reported that they had recovered the industrial zone and parts of al-Jawlan neighborhood from the US occupation forces. The Resistance fighters told Quds Press that they prayed the nighttime prayer in a mosque in the Industrial Zone. Also on Saturday, Iraqi Resistance forces announced that they had taken the al-Askari neighborhood back from the US invader forces, after battles that lasted several hours.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #422 of 426
I'm a bit surprised, since I'd think it would be better from the POV of the insurgents if they set up in another place and the US army would have to mow that down too - better press, would appear more like whole Iraq is fighting and not just one town. Also it's necessarily becoming harder to fight in Falluja because US forces are getting acquainted with it, have deployed in great numbers, and lots of civilians have left and so there is less cover.
post #423 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
I'm a bit surprised, since I'd think it would be better from the POV of the insurgents if they set up in another place and the US army would have to mow that down too - better press, would appear more like whole Iraq is fighting and not just one town. Also it's necessarily becoming harder to fight in Falluja because US forces are getting acquainted with it, have deployed in great numbers, and lots of civilians have left and so there is less cover.

Or these insurgents are infact the citizens of falluja...
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post #424 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Or these insurgents are infact the citizens of falluja...

I was just discussing what I'd expect from the insurgents and what would make sense in their position, not who they are. If there are a lot of Fallujans among them (and there probably are) it would still make sense for them to shift the focus of the fight elsewhere, keep on the move, never allowing the US forces a chance to target concentrated insurgents in a single area.
post #425 of 426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
I was just discussing what I'd expect from the insurgents and what would make sense in their position, not who they are. If there are a lot of Fallujans among them (and there probably are) it would still make sense for them to shift the focus of the fight elsewhere, keep on the move, never allowing the US forces a chance to target concentrated insurgents in a single area.

They are focussing elsewhere also. More 'troubling gains' this time in Mosul.

Remember, what we hear is not necessarily the situation on the ground. To understate it wildly.

The situation could be far worse than even the few leaks that get through the radar suggest.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #426 of 426
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
I was just discussing what I'd expect from the insurgents and what would make sense in their position, not who they are. If there are a lot of Fallujans among them (and there probably are) it would still make sense for them to shift the focus of the fight elsewhere, keep on the move, never allowing the US forces a chance to target concentrated insurgents in a single area.

maybe, depends on how they are organized. I believe some of them are just local fighters...
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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