A Period Of Intense Learning

I would be more optimistic if the default state of many Americans didn't seem to be 'willful ignorance', as demonstrated by the surreal % who still apparently believe that Saddam was linked to 9/11, or that the collected tales in the Bible (listed under "Fiction" in the Library of Congress) trump Scientific evidence as demonstrated by geology/cosmology/chemistry/phsics/biology/....

Openness to new ideas is a pretty liberal idea... almost contradicts 'conservatism' by definition.

In terms of the internet and to a lesser extent, books and magazines, I agree.

One thing that I have found very strange for a while though is the absolute complete lack of such material in the area of music.

I know there are some rap artists out there who have said some interesting stuff but it isn't mainstream. From the places you would most expect there's been nothing - no comments, no protest and certainly no specific songs.

What have the Manics had to say ? U2 ? Dylan even ? Nothing. Zilch.

I think that learning is the normal process, after facing a drama, at least for US people.
One of the biggest difference, between US and some european countries like France, is that after a drama, US people tend to be very vocal about it, at the contrary of French people who try to forgot the bad events.

If we take the wars, it's astounding the number of movies about Vietnam that the US movie industry produced. In the other way, the number of war about WW1 in France is very limited. Worse the history was not questionned. I just hear in the radio, that the Marechal Joffre, who is considered to be a war heroe, was the worst general in France history : his management was a disaster, and his total lack of skill (he was more an adminstrator than anything else) leads to hundred thousands of deaths in the first days of the german invasion. But because France winned this war, they made him an heroe.

One of the specifity of US is it's ability to question itself. The other is US is a country of extremes (but I am off topic here)

Watch Stanley Kubrick's 1957 film "Paths of Glory" for its take on French WWI. Great film.

Farenheit 9/11 was nothing more or less than a decietful, spiteful, smear of the Bush administration. I don't see how this film can be mentioned in the same paragraph as "important" except that it is 'improtant to note that the simple minded were fooled into spening millions to see this extremely shrewd piece of propaganda.

groverat, your lack of intestinal fortitude on the Iraq situation, is very troubling, almost as troubling it was to find Fellowship shined on by conspiracy theories, to the point of having Art Bell type reporting shift his vote.

Here is something to consider: YOU PERSONALLY go grab, or email, or get second hand accounts of from the PEOPLE who were/are there -- then judge for yourself the levels of morale and the liklihood that the Iraq experiment will succeed. Yes Teri found an individual who was willing to betray his comrades in the field, all for "good" intentions but as the saying goes:

This principle is old, but true as fate,
Kings may love treason, but the traitor hate.

By all means email your Congressman (have you done that yet?) and tell them to get us out, or tell others to, but to systamaticaly undermine the troops in the field is tantamount to sedition. The Tokyo Rose treatment of Iraq is attempting to create a self-fullfilling prophesy -- and it is wrong. Nothing about this is constructive except to prop up the hopes of the terrorists in Iraq, establish a stable propaganda pipleine into American culture, and to undermine troop morale in the field. As long as we are on the ground in Iraq we need to have two speeds: forward or reverse. And yes, I understand that, after the election this may be your only option.

My only other point is this: what are your ideas for constructive options to dealing with Islamofascism? Groverat, you live in America, porn sewer pipe to the world. What makes you on one hand, stand for the right to be (face it, most on these treads monitarily support the porn industry) hedonistic, and export that to other cultures, while on the other implicitly ask for a retreat from Islamic countries?

(am I misreading you?)

I am hearing much on why the Bush's mideast strategy is wrong and evil, but folks, it Iraq doesn't work, Afganistan probably won't either, and the last time I checked the fundamentalist problem isn't getting smaller.

What are the left's talking points on solving the terror problem?

I'll read your reply Tuesday. I'm off to Victoria, BC for the weekend.

After more than a year's absence, William Gibson (Neuromancer etc.) recently returned to blogging. This was his explanation as to why in his first blog entry on October 13, 2004

This was the second entry the next day. It seems the Vietnam objectors weren't the only ones thinking that way groverat

Why do you assume he doesn't ?

Maybe you could do with taking a bit of your own advice here: Operation Truth

Green Day? Faithless? Morrissey? Springsteen? Beastie Boys?

I saw a movie last night about the life of Howard Zinn. It was called
"Howard Zinn".

Yes it's a reference.

Hmmm, well it ain't exactly the 60's is it ?

Perhaps it's more that these views are suppressed by the media then.

Take a look at this.


This is the parents and other students that drove this - wtf ? And then...




Pheww - thank God they got those lyrics eh - that was a close one. And meanwhile they're drastically cutting back the staff on the finding bin Laden team.

what amazes me, is how little imagination (let alone understanding) the far right has about this world. and then you wonder why half of the US and 80% of the world think that you are ignorant uneducated hicks.

before the americans came, iraq was one of the few places in the arab world where islamofascism didn't have a hold. well, that has certainly changed now, thanks to this administration. so i guess a constructive option for dealing with islamofascism would be to remove those who are responsible for it, but evidently you didn't take advantage of that opportunity on nov.2.

you want ideas?
how about this: instead of embarking on a stupid war in iraq, the US could have put all that manpower and money into reconstructing afghanistan. do you have any idea what 100 billion US$ could do in a place like that? do you know how many schools, hospitals, jobs you can create with that kind of money? that's how you deal with islamofascism. give the people work - a positive perspective on life. what's more, such an endeavor would have been a fantastic PR stunt instead of the fiasco that is taking place now.
and to top it off, it would have been the moraly, religiously, humanly "right" thing to do.

They could even have done that in Iraq. I don't agree with this btw but it would have been a win-win scenario:

Topple Saddam.
Pour the money that was used instead for war into rebuilding the cities. Baghdad first.
Give them cable TV, sprinkle a few internet cafes around, bung a McDonalds on every corner (more or less), shove up a few 'luxury' malls.
Makes jobs for the Iraqis (obviously at a low Iraqi rate), profits for the Americans (obviously at a high US rate) and voila - you have a new market for the outsourcing while the economy tanks back home.

The Iraqis would lap this up **** knows why but they would.

Of course there would be the odd hothead (like me ) who would want to wreak havoc on all this beneficence but there would be thousands less than there are now AND they would have ZERO support from the people who would have the 'freedoms' they are always promised but never get.

Of course this was never going to happen. This kind of 'freedom' is strictly for the folks back home. Thank God.

Fraid it's divide and conquer (treat em mean and keep em keen ?) for the rest of the planet.

imagine how large that market will be once the positive PR effect spills over into the rest of the arab world?
conservatives keep saying that the government should act/ be run like a business. how the hell do you want to run a successful business when you are making enemies out of potential customers?

I wasn't being insulting -- nowhere near it.

You have family in Iraq (or do you mean American Military?) If you mean native Iraqis -- very good -- layout something more substantial than your "brutalizing millions" remark. Saddam was brutalizing millions and didn't seem to draw as much ire as the current administration. Remember, theoretically Amercia is doing this to install free and fair elections. Your family should have a plan for a mideast situation, or Iraq situation, that would be ideal for them, what are you hearing?

I have family currently in iraq, recently in Iraq and soon to be going to Iraq (all military), I have friends in Iraq and recently in Iraq (military, an aid worker and a journalist) and I have colleagues recently in Iraq (aid workers). I also have a very close Iraqi friend with family living in Baghdad. Compared to almost all of them (although I haven't spoken with the one cousin who is on his way), my views would be considered moderate.

In fact, I'd raise it a little to say that there are a *whole lot* of reasons why the young soldiers on the ground specifically can't see the big picture.

So, when I consistantly hear that the story reported by the press in America is much different than what the people on the ground are seeing, they are just ingnorant of what's "really" going on?

Right, unless Terry Gross is doing the interveiw.

The bigger question would be why do 18-25yo US soldiers always get puzzled looks on their faces when asked what they are doing in Iraq? Hmmm. I wonder.

You want some real examples?
http://images.indymedia.org/imc/wash...ccomplished.rm

If you think I'm going to comment on the mental dexterity of the 18-25 yo crowd you are out of your tree!

But seriously, where is the Islamofacism thing going? How will that growing element interface with exported American culture? Will democracy last in Afganistan? Is it right/just/ethical/possible to try to implement it in Iraq?


What is the left's answer to the growing threat of Islamofacsim? Hiw do you take the courrupt lemon of the Oil-for-favors program with Sadism Insane running the country, and turn it into lemonade?

I don't know about "the left's" answer, but obvious difference between the bush admin and the rest of the world: everyone else has figured out that this conflict won't get solved in a state vs. state model. If there's one thing I pray for, it's that the Bush admin, despite its ignorance of this simple fact, will fall ass-backwards into a solution.

Since when what Saddam does to a foreign country not affiliated by the US, represent a worry in your (our) country? Since when did Iraq become a worry for the nation of Americans? Since when do WE have to CARE if Iraq is a lemonade or an OJ? What is our role in the world today?

I don't care what Saddam does or Oil-For-Food (the US is in the top-5 countries in the security council, why didn't THEY raise ANY voice PRIOR to the war about the so-called unproven corruption?)

Islamofascism...since when NOT occupying territories and defending them from OCCUPIERS is called Fascism? Or did your geography teacher teach you that Iraq is a state in the US?

But don't answer me. I can't take any of your 'answers' which resemble a total lack of reason and knowledge of geo-politics. People thinking that we should bomb a country just because it had weapons that WE have and WILL have, are out of their fucking mind. Period.

Islamofascism - nice Israeli-coined buzz-word.

There is only one State or Institution that I think can fit this rather lame catch-all rubric: Wahabism - and by extension Saudi and other satellite Wahabi State. But essentially Saudi.

What is the left doing about it ? Bugger-all. What is the right doing about it ? Making more deals, giving free rein for human rights abuses and generally licking ass.

Essentially the situation is this: Saudi/Wahabis are the only fascists in the Islamic fold - they are also the number one ally of the US.

This Saudi fascism is actually the cause and the origin of much Islamic resistance and what you would call terrorism - if you know anything of the subject you know that the first radicals sprang up instigated by Khotb's analysis of the depravity of so called 'Islamic' rulers. Ie the Sauds - Bush's beloved partners. The US got onvolved by extension because of being such a close ally.

If oth, you mean 'terrorism' or what you sometimes call 'evil' rather than Wahabism then you have a greater problem.

All the States and the majority of Jihadis (in the main) currently on the 'shit list' actually oppose the Saudis who the US support.

Look at some facts:

Saudi ('good'): no elections, women can't drive, gays imprisoned and punished sometimes killed, no other religions allowed, no alcohol, public beheadings.

That's the number one friend and ally. Let's see if the axis of evil can do any better:

Syria ('evil'): limited elections, Large Christian population with freedom of worship, small Jewish contingents, alcohol freely available, being gay not a crime, secular non-Islamic State.

I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture....um....er....well, anyway, bygones.

Also would like to ask what basis you judge Saddam to be so evil ? Btw why the childish name -twisting ? It ain't Pulitzer prize winning journalistic comment is it ?

And before you kick off - yes, I think Saddam was 'evil' in your terms though I don't believe in the concept (God - why is it always necessary to insert these riders ?), I just want to know the basis for your decision.

Was it because of the numbers killed ? Of so then what about when the US approaches similar numbers (that will be soon - we can have that argument at the time).

Or was it because he killed for different reasons ? Democracy and all that.

Or was it just because your leaders said it was so ?

how can democracy last in afghanistan, if it hasn't even started there?

so silly ....

Bush didn't even want to touch Afghanistan after 911 - he wanted to go straight to Iraq. It was only because Powell and Blair persuaded him there were al-Q camps there that would need to be neutralised that he gave in.
And then only after protracted arguments.

So let's cut the 'democracy' bs. Let's cut it anyway. It's a bad joke now.

The house of Saud is brimming with Wahabism? Also, you make it sound like there is a wall around SA that is preventing the spread of harcore Islamic fundamentalism -- with no mention of Malaysia either -- and that the US is SA's only ally, and that there aren't MANY MANY interests converging on the ME in general. SH being evil is neither here nor there, the democratic wedge the Bush administration is trying to drive in the ME is, and it's ability to work is the real question.

Why won't anyone make a prediction on Afghanistan?

I find them scattered around or they are emailed. I'll try to check tonight, see what I have saved at home and if there's anything good I'll put it on a server. I've ended up at www.informationclearinghouse.info for a lot of the more well-known videos. see: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...fo&btnG=Search


For more falluja footage:

[/B][/QUOTE] Originally posted by dmz [/i]
The house of Saud is brimming with Wahabism? [/QUOTE]

The Saudis ARE the Wahabis - there are no others. Surely you must know that ?


Wahabism and 'hardcore Islamic fundamentalism' are two different things. Islamism is something different again and 'terrorism' is a not a separate grouping but a tool or method sometimes used by all three.

There is no need for a wall - Saudi is not exporting 'hardcore Islamic fundamentalism' - not in the way you mean anyway. It has all this area tied up and has done for years - it uses one weapon and one weapon only. People are powerless against it. It is called MONEY. They can but anything they want. Literally anything. they've already bought a US government. There is no need for violence.

What violence you do see in Saudi - and there are increasing amounts - is done by people the west (and the US in particular) labels 'evil' or 'terrorist Islamists' or whatever.

In reality they are REALLY freedom fighters. REALLY.

This is what a sick joke your government is - and what a fool they make of you. The Saudis are literally fascists and extrme human rights abusers. Because the US support them they label the people who want Democracy and who fight for it as terrorists.

Think about that.

Your government says it promotes democracy. When people rise up against one of the most extreme fascist States in the world your government dopes not applaud them. It does not support them. It labels them terrorists and uses them as an example of why they must continue their 'war on terror'.

And you believe them and spout off about Islamofascists.

You need to re-evaluate.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by segovius


Sorry, I don't associate the actions of the Royal family with Wahabism. More along the lines of Animal House.


But once agian, we can't do this without the requisite invective -- I'm begining to realize that I'm a fucking idiot for trying to get on these theads and accomplish much more than some sort of perv Punch-and-Judy show.


/**Begins Hiatus**/

Ok - apologies if I offend. Not intentional. Please stick around. The intelligence quota on your side of the political spectrum will nose-dive infinitely further if you leave.

Let's try to salvage this.

This is an interesting link about Wahabis and Saudi.

Interesting thread. There is a lot of social discussion and analysis now, but I don't think that mainstream America cares. There is the intellectual, socially conscious sector (which I think is pretty small) and then there is the bulk of America.

Along that thought, may I ask a little bit off of topic question?

Do everyday people in Europe care about international events more than everyday Americans? The Europeans I communicate with are all students or otherwise scholars and not a fair measure of Germans and Brits and French people and so on. What do th eplumbers and janitors and cops and so on think? Do they care?

Don't feed the Groverat, or he will become Giant

Good question.

There's certainly a section of society that doesn't give a monkey's. But these are the socially excluded ('projects') crew.

A good rule of thumb is that if you've got a job and you're socially engaged, then you have an opinion. For example, 1,000,000 people protested against the war by marching in London prior to the invasion. Considering the population of Britain, this is a massive number (consider the size of the US marches).

So your plumbers and janitors etc. definately care I'd say.

That video has one of the MOST POWERFUL montage sequences I have EVER seen!!!

The interviews with the US soldiers who were stationed under the bridge, talking about their world: the war-movies through which they understand their experiences, the young, naivety, interspersed with the video taken by the insurgents preparing for and executing the Suicide Bombing that kills a number of those same American Soldiers!!!!!

Horrible, powerful, and very very revealing . . . that segment speaks deeper truths about our engagement in the region: our Culture's engagement:
the soldeirs in this video talk, ironically, about Pizza Hut, or, un-ironically, or not fully ironically, about war movies . . . elaborating their experience through what they know
While Iraqis solemnly sing and ritualisticaly prepare for death and 'heaven'

Very, unbelievably powerful!!!

We just may be fucked!!

Not really. It's a metaphor for Bono's relationship with his father. Kenneth Tanner in his review of the album (over at NRO) explains:
"Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own" is simply a spectacular song. Bono sang it at his father's funeral.