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ACLU: Bush ordered torture personally.

post #1 of 34
12/21/04 at 1:17am
Thread Starter 
The ACLU yesterday released documents obtained under the FOIA implicating Bush as issuing an Executive Order authorizing the use of torture against prisoners in Iraq.

The document in question is an email between an 'On Scene Commander' in Baghdad and named personnel which asks for clarity about 'interrogation techniques'. The relevant part states that the mail is a:

"Request for guidance regarding the OGC's EC regarding detainee abuse, referring to interrogation techniques made lawful by the President's Executive Order.

My emphasis.

This clearly shows that an executive order signed by Bush relating to interrogation methods exists. I think we can safely rule out that the order was along the lines of "Don't do it", so we need to know exactly what that order constituted.

Accordingly, the ACLU will now require the White House to confirm or deny the existence of such an order and, if confirmed, to produce it.

ACLU article

Released email transcripts (relevant mail is dated 5/22/04)
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post #2 of 34
12/21/04 at 3:22am
While you are at it...

ACLU = American Civil Liberties Union
FOIA = Freedom Of Information Act
OGC = Office of General Counsel
EC = European Community / Emergency Contraception / Elder Care???
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post #3 of 34
12/21/04 at 4:33am
Guilty until proven innocent segovius? Maybe we should sick the aclu on you? If they can find time away from defending child molesters while at the same time destroying the boy scouts.
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post #4 of 34
12/21/04 at 5:55am
That's the best you've got, Scott?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #5 of 34
12/21/04 at 11:13am
Thread Starter 
Looks like the BBC are running with the story now:

Quote:
Another document said an executive order signed by President George W Bush had authorised techniques such as "sleep management", stress positions, use of military dogs and sensory deprivation.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #6 of 34
12/21/04 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
That's the best you've got, Scott?


What's the point? The knee jerk left will color the truth to slander the US. So why shoud I bother?
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post #7 of 34
12/21/04 at 1:40pm
Can we wait for the investigation?
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post #8 of 34
12/21/04 at 2:29pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Can we wait for the investigation?

Could we before the iraq war?

Sorry. Carry on...
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post #9 of 34
12/21/04 at 9:08pm
Sleep deprivation?

I did that in college. No biggie (*yawn*).

Aries 1B
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post #10 of 34
12/21/04 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Can we wait for the investigation?

What investigation? There won't be any investigation. If by some quirk of fate there *is* one.. or it's anything like the "9-11 Omission" abortion, then forget it....the conclusion will be worth less than the paper upon which it is printed.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #11 of 34
12/22/04 at 8:19am
If it was proven true that GWB personally ordered torture, would it be a viable pretext, for you American readers, to try to impeach him ?

Or is it still not enough ?
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post #12 of 34
12/22/04 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally posted by pierr_alex
If it was proven true that GWB personally ordered torture, would it be a viable pretext, for you American readers, to try to impeach him ?

Nope. All he has to do to justify his actions is say "Remember 9/11?"
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post #13 of 34
12/22/04 at 6:37pm
It would depend on McCain and Biden, and I'm not sure that they have enough influence to counteract the Bush addministration.
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post #14 of 34
12/23/04 at 9:52am
If a little oral sex almost got one president impeached, torture more-so.
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post #15 of 34
12/23/04 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally posted by lolo
Nope. All he has to do to justify his actions is say "Remember 9/11?"

Exactly, hence 9-11.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #16 of 34
12/23/04 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
What investigation? There won't be any investigation. If by some quirk of fate there *is* one.. or it's anything like the "9-11 Omission" abortion, then forget it....the conclusion will be worth less than the paper upon which it is printed.



Not to worry Bush will go too far at some point ( wrong place right time ) and get the wrong person's attention. If not this something else.
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #17 of 34
12/24/04 at 10:08am
Quote:
Not to worry Bush will go too far at some point ( wrong place right time ) and get the wrong person's attention. If not this something else.

EXACTLY.

Some time soon, I fear something bad will happen. A dirty nuclear bomb will rip through Times Square or DC. Or maybe there will be a disastrous contamination of an aquifer near sometime, with toxic waste. However this is more likely to happen 20 years down the road, but still thanks solely to assholes voting for Bush. Social Security for sure is now fucked. You know in a way I'm almost glad Bush got elected. If it weren't for the terrible fact that a lot of species will go extinct because of him, I'd be glad. Iraq is turning in to Vietnam, and now it is indisputable. Thought the troops were supposed to be home by Christmas Rummy? Soon the American public will start asking questions, and start to get angry. They already have. Look at the shit Rummy is in. I'm sure the troops didn't want to see HIM today, just some freakin armor on their Humvees. Yes, I think America is a lot less safe since Clinton in terms of terrorism, and with a morbid fascination I am waiting for a terrorist attack. It maybe be necessary, to wake up this country and get rid of some GOP. Hopefully they hit the Whitehouse or Pentagon and take out the men responsible for all this, instead of hurting regular joe New Yorkers who probably didn't vote for the guy anyway.
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post #18 of 34
12/24/04 at 10:22am
Also, congress is on the side of Bush. They are both on the same sides since Congress is controled by the republicans. Hopefully, that will change in 2006. Anyway, it will look bad for congress to impeach one of there own. They also had an agenda with Clinton. They wanted him out at all costs. I do not think we could get enough people to sign a petition for a recall since we reelected Bush.
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post #19 of 34
12/24/04 at 6:28pm
So you're (we're all) screwed !?
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post #20 of 34
12/25/04 at 4:50am
Quote:
Originally posted by pierr_alex
If it was proven true that GWB personally ordered torture, would it be a viable pretext, for you American readers, to try to impeach him ?

They just re-elected him, so they seemingly condone torture. Would you expect even an investigation? Not me at any rate.
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post #21 of 34
12/25/04 at 8:00am
Quote:
Some time soon, I fear something bad will happen. A dirty nuclear bomb will rip through Times Square or DC. Or maybe there will be a disastrous contamination of an aquifer near sometime, with toxic waste.


A major terrorist attack would make things much worse.
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post #22 of 34
12/25/04 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
EXACTLY.

Some time soon, I fear something bad will happen. A dirty nuclear bomb will rip through Times Square or DC. Or maybe there will be a disastrous contamination of an aquifer near sometime, with toxic waste. However this is more likely to happen 20 years down the road, but still thanks solely to assholes voting for Bush. Social Security for sure is now fucked. You know in a way I'm almost glad Bush got elected. If it weren't for the terrible fact that a lot of species will go extinct because of him, I'd be glad. Iraq is turning in to Vietnam, and now it is indisputable. Thought the troops were supposed to be home by Christmas Rummy? Soon the American public will start asking questions, and start to get angry. They already have. Look at the shit Rummy is in. I'm sure the troops didn't want to see HIM today, just some freakin armor on their Humvees. Yes, I think America is a lot less safe since Clinton in terms of terrorism, and with a morbid fascination I am waiting for a terrorist attack. It maybe be necessary, to wake up this country and get rid of some GOP. Hopefully they hit the Whitehouse or Pentagon and take out the men responsible for all this, instead of hurting regular joe New Yorkers who probably didn't vote for the guy anyway.

Not even sure where to start with this post.
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post #23 of 34
12/25/04 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Not even sure where to start with this post.


Me either!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #24 of 34
12/25/04 at 10:58pm
Things always get worse before they get better.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #25 of 34
12/26/04 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Things always get worse before they get better.


Or you might say that because the american people were so blind to reelect Bush they now have to learn the hard way.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #26 of 34
12/27/04 at 6:55pm
Something surprised me (back on topic)...
The way how '24' (the TV show; season 3 just ended in France) quietly described government backed torture as an inevitable way to obtain informations. I know that it's always because of a 'force majeur' case and that J-Bauer does everything he can to avoid it but... still, that's disturbing.
I won't make any kind of correlation between (nothing more than) a fiction and reality, but '24' is a kind of 'hyper-realistic Fiction' based on potential terrorist threats. That's what makes it disturbing.
Just a thought...
;-)
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post #27 of 34
1/6/05 at 5:57pm
So no one cares... 8-(
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post #28 of 34
1/6/05 at 6:28pm
In the new America? No. Gonzalez, who wrote the legal briefs justifying torture, will soon be confirmed as attorney general, which is the highest legal position in the executive branch. Nothing will change until something truly awful hapens.
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post #29 of 34
1/7/05 at 4:47pm
Waoh..! That's fascinating.
It could become the subject of a new (and very serious now) thread: "Is Torture worse it on War-Time ?" Pros and Cons...
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post #30 of 34
1/7/05 at 7:00pm
I wish people would take it seriously. Today Gonzalez lied his way through his Senate confirmation hearing.
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post #31 of 34
1/7/05 at 7:20pm
If the rest of the country is anything like me at this moment then we are in serious shiit: I am simply too tired to care about this incipient and developing neo-fascism . . . I can't even follow the news anymore . . . and what's worse, I am pretty certain that my apathetic stance is vastly less apathetic than 90% of the average American . . .

We will move from being very concerned, to slightly concerned, to merely noting the loss of civility and even further, until we get to the pont that we no longer even notice that we are being completely reamed by a band of blind idiot thugs . . . . hell, 58+ percent of us are willing to sign on the dotted line in blood . . .

I can only feel sad for America . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #32 of 34
1/8/05 at 8:28am
I think I'd better be more accurate. Gonzalez didn't actually write the memo, but he did request and endorse it. Here is the full story:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200501070013
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post #33 of 34
1/8/05 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
If the rest of the country is anything like me at this moment then we are in serious shiit: I am simply too tired to care about this incipient and developing neo-fascism . . . I can't even follow the news anymore . . . and what's worse, I am pretty certain that my apathetic stance is vastly less apathetic than 90% of the average American . . .

We will move from being very concerned, to slightly concerned, to merely noting the loss of civility and even further, until we get to the pont that we no longer even notice that we are being completely reamed by a band of blind idiot thugs . . . . hell, 58+ percent of us are willing to sign on the dotted line in blood . . .

I can only feel sad for America . . .

From a friend at work just yesterday " I'm getting used to thinking the president is a piece of crap. "

My reply was " We can't afford to become complacent. That's what he's counting on. " It's my belief still that at some point Bush will go too far ( something that affects us all personally ) and then america will turn a negative eye towards him. Just wait and see.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #34 of 34
1/8/05 at 11:14am
a pertinent quote:

Quote:
What happened was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to be governed by surprise, to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believe that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if people could understand it, it
could not be released because of national security.

* The crises and reforms (real reforms too) so occupied the people
that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole
process of government growing remoter and remoter.
* To live in the process is absolutely not to notice it -- please
try to believe me -- unless one has a much greater degree of
political awareness, acuity, than most of us ever had occasion to
develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well
explained or, on occasion, 'regretted.'
* Believe me this is true. Each act, each occasion is worse than the
last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next.
You wait for one shocking occasion, thinking that others, when
such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow.
* Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are,
what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done
(for that was all that was required of most of us: that we did
nothing) . . . You remember everything now, and your heart breaks.
Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

[A German professor describing the coming of fascism. From They Thought
They Were Free: The Germans 1939-1945 by Milton Mayer, a stunning and
chilling account of ordinary people in extraordinary times.]
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
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