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Bin Laden intervenes in Iraq

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
And according to Juan Cole has messed up big time. This time I agree, although Cole is becoming more and more....what's the word ?.....Neutralised, I think should cover it.

Anyway, OBL has released a tape which urges Iraqis not to vote and calling them 'infidels' if they do. It also expresses support for Zarqawi. Leaving aside the fact that absolutely no OBL tape is above suspicion (and this one, as usual, benefits the US greatly) this should make it clear once and for all what the divide in Iraq (and by extension in the WOT) actually is and is not.

For a start it clarifies the fact that Iraqis are massively behind Sistani. And that they have no time for Wahabism and fundamentalism - from Osama, Zarqawi or anyone else.

This however is not the picture we are spoon-fed from the media and not a picture the wingers can assimilate. To them the Iraqi quagmire is a quagmire because of fundie/Wahahbi/Islamist support.

The failure of OBL's latest tape shows this is not the case. It essentially proves that the resistance is just that - a resistance by a civilian population. Obl and Zarqawi are marginalised.

Cole interprets this tape as evidence that OBL is washed up and I agree (assuming that the tape is real - something I am not 100% convinced of) but where does that leave the WOT and Iraq ?

If OBL is finished, if the Iraqis do want democracy (for that is what their rejection of AQ means - what they vote for is a different issue) and if Sistani is a 'man of peace' then really we are very near a real 'mission accomplished'.

So there's no problem. Except there seems still to be. Say it with me: Shi'i Islamic State.

I am coming more and more to consider the possibility that OBL is somehow on the payroll. He seems to intervene at critical times and his interventions, although seeming to work against the US, always in the end work in their favour. So it is here. This is a last ditch attempt to stop Iraqis voting - because they will vote for what the US (and Osama) does not want: a Shi'i government.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 21
It is interested that ObL comes out of the shadows when we need a voter swing.

I just had a discussion with my father about how Al Gore "wouldn't have done anything" after 9/11. People but this shit. It works. I'm not ready to go in the kitchen and make my tinfoil hat, but I have to wonder. I think it is far more likely that ObL is just unaware of how many people dislike him.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
It is interested that ObL comes out of the shadows when we need a voter swing.

I just had a discussion with my father about how Al Gore "wouldn't have done anything" after 9/11. People but this shit. It works. I'm not ready to go in the kitchen and make my tinfoil hat, but I have to wonder. I think it is far more likely that ObL is just unaware of how many people dislike him.

Possibly, but that would mean he is out of touch - not just with the west but with the Islamic world too.

My problem with that is that he is shown as being 'diabolically clever' when the propaganda situation requires it (ie - calling the reaction to Madrid bombings correctly when everyone thought it would have opposite effect) and also 'diabolically stupid' (ie now).

He can't be both can he ?

Like I say, I am coming more to believe he is dead (much evidence for this exists), that the US know he is dead (hence the lack of hunting) and that they are cobbling together edited tapes (from old genuine ones they have withheld possibly) and releasing them as part of a propaganda war - sometimes successfully, sometimes with their usual laughable incompetence.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The failure of OBL's latest tape shows this is not the case. It essentially proves that the resistance is just that - a resistance by a civilian population. Obl and Zarqawi are marginalised.

If your theory is true, why then is it the Iraqi's themselves are suffering the most casualties. These would be relatives - cousins, brothers, sisters, uncles and grandparents - that are dying.

Are you saying that Iraqi 'insurgents' are willing to do this, is this the kind of people you think they are?

That's pretty stereotypical and condescending, don't you think?
post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Possibly, but that would mean he is out of touch - not just with the west but with the Islamic world too.

My problem with that is that he is shown as being 'diabolically clever' when the propaganda situation requires it (ie - calling the reaction to Madrid bombings correctly when everyone thought it would have opposite effect) and also 'diabolically stupid' (ie now).

He can't be both can he ?

Like I say, I am coming more to believe he is dead (much evidence for this exists), that the US know he is dead (hence the lack of hunting) and that they are cobbling together edited tapes (from old genuine ones they have withheld possibly) and releasing them as part of a propaganda war - sometimes successfully, sometimes with their usual laughable incompetence.

And this theory is based on what hard evidence?

What you have none, as usual? Oh, OK.
post #6 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
And this theory is based on what hard evidence?

What you have none, as usual? Oh, OK.

Man you're one to talk!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #7 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
And this theory is based on what hard evidence?

What you have none, as usual? Oh, OK.

It's called logic and analysis - don't worry, you don't need to know that stuff.....carry on........
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #8 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
It's called logic and analysis - don't worry, you don't need to know that stuff.....carry on........

Why don't you walk me through it. Make me see your logic and analysis. I am open to learning your wise ways.

Teach me, if you can.
post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Why don't you walk me through it. Make me see your logic and analysis. I am open to learning your wise ways.

Teach me, if you can.

I can, but can you learn ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #10 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I can, but can you learn ?

Let's see. Go for it.
post #11 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Let's see. Go for it.

Ok, but it's one strike and you're out.

I'm afraid we have to start with the basics, kind of ABC if you will. But first, in order to know how to proceed, I will need to conduct a kind of literary rorschach test. Please give your opinion on the following piece of writing:

Quote:
For some time now I've been really pissed off with Mr Johnson, who lives a couple of doors down the street. Well, him and Mr Patel, who runs the health food shop. They both give me queer looks, and I'm sure Mr Johnson is planning something nasty for me, but so far I haven't been able to discover what. I've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but he's got everything well hidden. That's how devious he is.

As for Mr Patel, don't ask me how I know, I just know - from very good sources - that he is, in reality, a Mass Murderer. I have leafleted the street telling them that if we don't act first, he'll pick us off one by one.

Some of my neighbours say, if I've got proof, why don't I go to the police? But that's simply ridiculous. The police will say that they need evidence of a crime with which to charge my neighbours.

They'll come up with endless red tape and quibbling about the rights and wrongs of a pre-emptive strike and all the while Mr Johnson will be finalising his plans to do terrible things to me, while Mr Patel will be secretly murdering people. Since I'm the only one in the street with a decent range of automatic firearms, I reckon it's up to me to keep the peace. But until recently that's been a little difficult.

Strike first! That'll teach him a lesson. Then he'll leave us in peace and stop peering at me in that totally unacceptable way.

Mr Johnson and Mr Patel are just the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of other people in the street who I don't like and who - quite frankly - look at me in odd ways. No one will be really safe until I've wiped them all out.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Ok, but it's one strike and you're out.

I'm afraid we have to start with the basics, kind of ABC if you will. But first, in order to know how to proceed, I will need to conduct a kind of literary rorschach test. Please give your opinion on the following piece of writing:

I think it is a ridiculously shallow attempt to simplify the Iraq war and get me to say the author is a nut-case so you can say "See, we agree that GWB is a nut-case."

You left out a whole lot of details and and circumstances. For example, if you added that the neighborhood was just attacked by friends of Mr. Johnson and Mr. Patel, that would be more true to life. Or if you mention the fact that Mr. Johnson was milking money from the neighborhood emergency fund that was supposed to be for his sick daughter, and using the money to build a new house and to pay other neighbors to look the other way. Or that Mr. Patel is abusing his son. Those would fit the true life parallel you are feebly attempting to convey. Or perhaps that Mr. Johnson broke into his neighbor's house and raped his wife and set his car on fire, that would be relevant. Or perhaps that he had threatened all of his immediate neighbor's lives, or actually shot at Mr. Eliakim's house and paid the other neighbors to do the same.

I thought you were going to teach me something. I am way ahead of you on this. I must need the advanced curriculum...

Let's have some harder questions here eh, Alex...
post #13 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I think it is a ridiculously shallow attempt to simplify the Iraq war and get me to say the author is a nut-case so you can say "See, we agree that GWB is a nut-case."

You left out a whole lot of details and and circumstances. For example, if you added that the neighborhood was just attacked by friends of Mr. Johnson and Mr. Patel, that would be more true to life. Or if you mention the fact that Mr. Johnson was milking money from the neighborhood emergency fund that was supposed to be for his sick daughter, and using the money to build a new house and to pay other neighbors to look the other way. Or that Mr. Patel is abusing his son. Those would fit the true life parallel you are feebly attempting to convey. Or perhaps that Mr. Johnson broke into his neighbor's house and raped his wife and set his car on fire, that would be relevant. Or perhaps that he had threatened all of his immediate neighbor's lives, or actually shot at Mr. Eliakim's house and paid the other neighbors to do the same.

I thought you were going to teach me something. I am way ahead of you on this. I must need the advanced curriculum...

Let's have some harder questions here eh, Alex...

That's strike one - see you're unteachable.

Permissable answers would have been along the lines of:

This is stupid, what are you trying to say, skip this crap let's get on with it etc etc......

Instead you think you know all the answers before you even know the question. Ergo, you cannot possibly want to learn something new - any imputation to the contrary on your behalf is a blatant lie.

The story was about Mr ***ing Patel for ****'s sake Hello ??????????

You lose. Don't bother me any further with this juvenalia.

You are the weakest link.

Goodbye.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #14 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
That's strike one - see you're unteachable.

Permissable answers would have been along the lines of:

This is stupid, what are you trying to say, skip this crap let's get on with it etc etc......

Instead you think you know all the answers before you even know the question. Ergo, you cannot possibly want to learn something new - any imputation to the contrary on your behalf is a blatant lie.

The story was about Mr ***ing Patel for ****'s sake Hello ??????????

You lose. Don't bother me any further with this juvenalia.

You are the weakest link.

Goodbye.

You actually sounded like you may be able to teach me somethy by the way you were talking. You are the one who came up with some 3rd, nay 1st grade story as some kind of test. Don't get mad at me for not going along with your silly game.

I went into it with an open mind. But come on.

Don't worry, I am not saddened by my failure to conform to liberal er "progressive" ways of reasoning. That was fun though.
post #15 of 21
The take home message is that Bin Laden is on the payroll.
post #16 of 21
I've never believed he was/is on the payroll, but I seriously doubt the veracity of all these tapes we've been receiving.

I wouldn't doubt that, at times, intelligence agencies are using Bin Laden's words against him, literally.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #17 of 21
I am actually curious to the tactics that are used in psychological warfare.

Like in Falluja, when they announced the attack far ahead of the actual attack, to watch movement of the insurgents.

I would be curious to find out how many terrorists were captured just after some of these tapes were released.

It may prove enlightening.
post #18 of 21
You mean the one when they attacked, pussied out, waited 6 months, then started using illegal weapons and destroying whatever came in their way?

of some psychology you're talking about there Mr. Lets-Kill-All-O'Em-Non-Bible-Believers.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
You mean the one when they attacked, pussied out, waited 6 months, then started using illegal weapons and destroying whatever came in their way?

of some psychology you're talking about there Mr. Lets-Kill-All-O'Em-Non-Bible-Believers.

No that's nor what I mean, Mr. I-need-2 identities-to-make-my-argument-appear-stronger.

Your liberal bias has infected your brain.

Let's try just a little to be clever.
post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
No that's nor what I mean, Mr. I-need-2 identities-to-make-my-argument-appear-stronger.

Your liberal bias has infected your brain.

Let's try just a little to be clever.

Sorry but you sound a little paranoid to me.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
No that's nor what I mean, Mr. I-need-2 identities-to-make-my-argument-appear-stronger.

Your liberal bias has infected your brain.

Let's try just a little to be clever.

What do you think Liberal means and is anyway? 'He who eats French Fries as opposed to He who eats Freedom Fries'?

The infection, is in your brain (assuming, possibly quite false, its in stable condition), and is manifested in this forum quite clearly with your paranoya and illogical, anti-reason scribblings.

But, to continue with the thread (and don't talk about personas anymore, try for once to stay on topic), what did you mean by the psychology of the Falluja attack? Englighten us.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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