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US Immigration Farce

post #1 of 52
Thread Starter 
US Immigration Farce

Living in Texas, I see US immigration in action everyday. Illegals are everywhere! Our economy depends on them. It is that simple. We talk about these people as if they are a problem because we dont want to pay their medical bills and we dont want to pay to educate their kids and we dont want to see them. But we really want them here. There is such a double standard. Our message is sneak in, work cheap, dont get in our way ,and disappear if you need food or medicine or want to educate your kids. At the same time we make the legal immigration process hell for those who want to follow the rules.

Our policy needs to change. We either (1) Enforce our laws by putting troops at the border or (2) Accept these people as member of our working society. I suggest that we find a way to legally let folks come here to work. Our current policy is just hypocrisy.
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #2 of 52
Lad, I agree 100% with you!

Because the U.S.A. is the world's most powerful nation at the moment, that also makes us the world's biggest hypocrite in many ways...

[]in Gov. Arnold's voice[/]
I'll be back.
You know, what's interesting about our country is that for years we were isolated from the world by two great oceans, and for a while we got a false sense of security as a result of that. We...
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You know, what's interesting about our country is that for years we were isolated from the world by two great oceans, and for a while we got a false sense of security as a result of that. We...
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post #3 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
US Immigration Farce

Living in Texas, I see US immigration in action everyday. Illegals are everywhere! Our economy depends on them. It is that simple. We talk about these people as if they are a problem because we dont want to pay their medical bills and we dont want to pay to educate their kids and we dont want to see them. But we really want them here. There is such a double standard. Our message is sneak in, work cheap, dont get in our way ,and disappear if you need food or medicine or want to educate your kids. At the same time we make the legal immigration process hell for those who want to follow the rules.

Our policy needs to change. We either (1) Enforce our laws by putting troops at the border or (2) Accept these people as member of our working society. I suggest that we find a way to legally let folks come here to work. Our current policy is just hypocrisy.

For once, I agree with you -- at least for the analysis of the current situation. Which of the two solutions do you prefer?

I personally think Nr. 1 will not work (not enough troops, too costly, Guantanamo not big enough, etc etc).

Nr 2, as good as it sounds, has its problems as well. What should we do with all those people, onece they come in?
post #4 of 52
Thread Starter 
#1 will not work and #2 will be hard, but preferable. It bothers me to hear peopel here (in Texas, not AI) ripping the hispanic population when they use these for cheap labor. If yoiu don't like the hispanic illegals here, then way the price for union labor.

The problem is , if you institute a guess worker program, the illegals will not stop.
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post #5 of 52
borders schmorders.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #6 of 52
Grampa Simpson:
"In my days we didn't have borders. And that's the way we liked it!"
post #7 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
Grampa Simpson:
"In my days we didn't have borders. And that's the way we liked it!"

Damn straight. I don't care about Mexicans coming over and working jobs that Texicans and Califonicans and New Mexicanicans don't want to work. What chaps my hide, though, are the damned frostbacks* coming down from Canada and stealing good American jobs.

--
* I brazenly steal this term from Garrison Keillor.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #8 of 52
Illegal immigration costs the United States billions.
States with high illegal immigration rates such as California have the biggest budget problems, not to mention overcrowding and sprawl. Illegals also lower wages and increase housing costs.

We already let in 1 million legal immigrants each year.
As for it being so difficult to enter, thats a crock. The majority of legal immigrants are Mexicans. The only folks that have trouble are from countries that are not on our border, or not in Central America and Southeast Asia.

We are turning into a third world country, with our population soon reaching 500 million with a huge underclass and a shrinking middle class.

If this doesn't bother you, bully for you. It bothers the hell out of me.
post #9 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Illegal immigration costs the United States billions.
States with high illegal immigration rates such as California have the biggest budget problems, not to mention overcrowding and sprawl. Illegals also lower wages and increase housing costs.

We already let in 1 million legal immigrants each year.
As for it being so difficult to enter, thats a crock. The majority of legal immigrants are Mexicans. The only folks that have trouble are from countries that are not on our border, or not in Central America and Southeast Asia.

We are turning into a third world country, with our population soon reaching 500 million with a huge underclass and a shrinking middle class.

If this doesn't bother you, bully for you. It bothers the hell out of me.

I'm shocked, shocked, I say, that there are jobs Americans don't want to work!
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #10 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I'm shocked, shocked, I say, that there are jobs Americans don't want to work!

Of course there are, thats why we have LEGAL immigration.
We can't let our population explode unchecked, and the US isn't some plot of land that people can come and go as they please. We are supposed to be a nation of laws.

The US has the population growth of a third world nation right now and its the biggest problem we face because it affects everything.
post #11 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
[B]Of course there are, thats why we have LEGAL immigration.

Did you really just say that? Out loud? In public?

I'm shocked, shocked, I say, to learn that there are jobs even LEGAL immigrants don't want to work!
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #12 of 52
Something's GOT to be done about this. I mean, who knows exactly how many of these so-called "Mexicans" are really Muslims in Sombreros!
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post #13 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Something's GOT to be done about this. I mean, who knows exactly how many of these so-called "Mexicans" are really Muslims in Sombreros!

Hell, for that matter, who knows how many of these "Texicans" are actually Muslims in cowboy hats and skin-tight wranglers?
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #14 of 52
Thread Starter 
Let me say a few things. First, I don't know if people who don't live on the Mexican border understand the issue. Maybe they do, I just don't know. Second, this is a very serious issue to those of us in places like Texas and I'm sure California. Our clinics and schools are overrun by people whom either have no papers or have fake papers. It is time to accept that we need these people in our workforce, find a way to have them here legally and make them part of the legitimate system. Therefore, I support a "visitor worker program". However, in order for such a program to work, we also need to stop the flow of illegals coming across the border.
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post #15 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Let me say a few things. First, I don't know if people who don't live on the Mexican border understand the issue. Maybe they do, I just don't know. Second, this is a very serious issue to those of us in places like Texas and I'm sure California. Our clinics and schools are overrun by people whom either have no papers or have fake papers. It is time to accept that we need these people in our workforce, find a way to have them here legally and make them part of the legitimate system. Therefore, I support a "visitor worker program". However, in order for such a program to work, we also need to stop the flow of illegals coming across the border.

Damn straight! We need to quit perpetuating slave labor and start paying these workers a decent wage. Additionally, we need to heavily tax those who employ immigrant labor to encourage them to give those jobs to Americans. We also need to offer some kind of health care option for these immigrant laborers so they will no longer clog up our health care system with fraudulent documents.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #16 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Our clinics and schools are overrun by people whom either have no papers or have fake papers.

That's a weird turn of phrase. Are you suggesting that these people are dragging the system down purely because they "have no papers" or merely by their presence in the country. Cos it sonds like you understand that your country needs and/or wants them in some way, though apparently not enough to provide adequate schooling and medical service provision.

So what exactly is the problem? That they're illegal, or that they're here? A little of both? Do you think by making more of them egal you can reduce the total number? Doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe you need to take the opposite tack and make it impossible for Central Americans to immigrate so that only the most wily can make it across the border.
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a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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post #17 of 52
You people have no clue.
Most Americans can't afford decent health care and now you want to give it for free to those who shouldn't even be here?

A guest worker program is nothing but an amnesty for illegals. Its a farce.

Why don't you all go to http://www.fairus.org and learn something?

As for terrorists, there are terrorists slipping across out porous borders and some Muslim terrorists were caught in Mexico before they could slip in. How many have actually made it?
post #18 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
How many have actually made it?



How many were home-grown?
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post #19 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter


How many were home-grown?

One. Whats your point?
post #20 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
One. Whats your point?

My point is that there's something to be said for The Buffy Paradigm.
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post #21 of 52
Thread Starter 
steve666 we depend on these people. It is too late to go back. We need to find a better way for them to be here and work. Nor sure where you live, but Texas would stop cold without the latin american work force.
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post #22 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
steve666 we depend on these people. It is too late to go back. We need to find a better way for them to be here and work. Nor sure where you live, but Texas would stop cold without the latin american work force.

No it wouldn't. There are enough legal immigrants to do the work.
The only reason illegals are hired is because they get paid dirt, the businesses dont have to fill out any paperwork or pay unemployment insurance, and can fire them at will.

And since when has this country been so dependent on latin American immigrants? There are people all over the world who want to immigrate here, not just from mexico and Central America. Even South Americans have trouble immigrating to this country because chain immigration gives priority to those with relatives here.

Our immigration policy needs to be reformed and illegal immigration needs to be stopped immediately, IMHO
post #23 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
No it wouldn't. There are enough legal immigrants to do the work.
The only reason illegals are hired is because they get paid dirt, the businesses dont have to fill out any paperwork or pay unemployment insurance, and can fire them at will.

You seem to have a distorted notion about the role legal immigrants play in this country.

Quote:
And since when has this country been so dependent on latin American immigrants?

Since people didn't want to pay $9 for an orange.

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Our immigration policy needs to be reformed and illegal immigration needs to be stopped immediately, IMHO

Common Man is absolutely correct: Many markets in the US are utterly dependent upon the slave labor of illegal immigrants.
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post #24 of 52
There was another thread about the guest worker idea where I commented that a provision should be made to grant guest workers citizenship after 10 years of legal guest worker status. IMHO this would definitely give people enough hope to realize that a solution exists that doesn't require breaking the law.

Meanwhile, what you all don't seem to realize is that by keeping a policy against illegal immigration, we may still be discouraging it, even if it's not really being enforced well. There are honest Mexicans who don't break the law but desparately want to come to the US. If we ever opened the border without a very strict system, the rush will be HUGE. And a very strict system is what we ghave now. With a very strict system in place, there will still be illegals who don't qualify. So we'd still have to have enforcement. Therefore #2 is not possible.
post #25 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
You seem to have a distorted notion about the role legal immigrants play in this country.



Since people didn't want to pay $9 for an orange.



Common Man is absolutely correct: Many markets in the US are utterly dependent upon the slave labor of illegal immigrants.

And what role do legal immigrants play in this country? Just how different are legal mexican immigrants vs illegal, except getting paid on the books and paying taxes. Do legal immigrants come here and apply for CEO jobs?

There needs to be a guest worker program for farm workers only. I agree that those jobs are hard to fill.

No markets are dependent on illegals. The businesses that hire them make more profit. If there were no illegals anywhere in this country life would go on, believe me.
post #26 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
And what role do legal immigrants play in this country?

Students, cabbies, waitresses, construction workers, cooks, maids, teachers, customer service representatives, you name it. They work jobs. Sometimes they apply for citizenship. You seem to think that legal immigrants come here to be slaves.

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Just how different are legal mexican immigrants vs illegal, except getting paid on the books and paying taxes.

And having the right not to be a slave.

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Do legal immigrants come here and apply for CEO jobs?

Ask Rupert Murdoch.

Quote:
There needs to be a guest worker program for farm workers only. I agree that those jobs are hard to fill.

And sweatshops. Don't forget the sweatshops. And construction jobs. Every time I drive past the day-worker mob on the corner of 30th and Wall in my town, I wonder how many houses get built on the cheap because a truck drives up and a guy yells out in Spanish that he needs 5 workers for the day.

Quote:
No markets are dependent on illegals. The businesses that hire them make more profit. If there were no illegals anywhere in this country life would go on, believe me. [/B]

Indeed, life would go on. It would be a great deal more expensive in many ways, but it would go on. How do you think Americans are able to sustain the lifestyles they do? Wear the clothes they do? It's because someone, somewhere, is willing to work for less than an American is. And every time an American purchases clothes or cars or TVs or whatever that was built in conditions that an American would consider slavery, that person becomes complicit in perpetuating that slavery.

Welcome to capitalism.
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post #27 of 52
CM, I am going to have to disagree with you a bit. I don't think we NEED illegal aliens. If illegals left today. Someone would do the work. Wages would go up to attract people.

The fact that these guys/gals are willing to work for next to nothing combined with the fact that employers are unable to pay enough should tell you something.

It tells me that the minimum wage is too high. Why take a labor intensive job when you can go work at an air conditioned Walgreens with no skills whatsoever and make $5-$6 an hour with benefits.

No its, not a lot, but an illegal is willing to work the same job for at least half that. The illegal and the employer doesn't need to conform to OSHA standards or even Federal rules, because they have the illegal by the balls - the fear of losing their job or deportation keeps violations from from even seeing the light of day.

In florida, all of the trades are owned by hispanics, and a huge percentage are illegals. Very few companies adhere to Federal Laws. They don't have to, no-one enforces the laws.

The answer is to punish the Employers with huge fines, make the rules of employment more strict and drop the minimum wage. Employers will immediately reverse the problem and illegals will return home for lack of available jobs.

Do an amnesty program for people that are here illegally but have verifiable employment for the past 2 years. Still fine the employers that knowingly hired illegals, though.

David Dreier of california has come up with a measure that will help with the document fraud issue. It's a start, but American need to toughen up on this issue. Big time.
post #28 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
CM, I am going to have to disagree with you a bit. I don't think we NEED illegal aliens. If illegals left today. Someone would do the work. Wages would go up to attract people.

Right. I'm sure costs would stay down aswell right?
Quote:
The fact that these guys/gals are willing to work for next to nothing combined with the fact that employers are unable to pay enough should tell you something.

Next to nothing? You must be thinking of China or some other country. Funny. Your previous "post" claims "someone would do the work and wages would go up". So where are the "employers" who are "unable to pay enough" (as you say in your next post) going to get the money to increase the wages to "attract people"? Typical of you to contradict yourself in the same sentence.
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No its, not a lot, but an illegal is willing to work the same job for at least half that.

"Half of that"? $2.50-$3.00 an hour? Do you even know what the minimum wage is?
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The illegal and the employer doesn't need to conform to OSHA standards or even Federal rules, because they have the illegal by the balls - the fear of losing their job or deportation keeps violations from from even seeing the light of day.

I'm sure there are many cases where illegal immigrants are exploited ("by the balls")....and in some cases maybe even enslaved. But your broad generalization is just both ridiculous and ignorant.
Quote:
The answer is to punish the Employers with huge fines, make the rules of employment more strict and drop the minimum wage. Employers will immediately reverse the problem and illegals will return home for lack of available jobs.

Drop the minimum wage? lol Damn the less privileged right? Yeah, that makes sense...
Of course that goes in direct contradiction with your initial paragraph:
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX If illegals left today. Someone would do the work. Wages would go up to attract people.

Emphasis mine. As usual, you're all over the place. By the way. I don't know to what extent percentage-wise, but a lot of illegal immigrants use fake SS cards to work so they do conform to some regulations...and pay taxes.
post #29 of 52
I agree with this except for amnesty. They can go home and apply to enter legally like everyone else in the world.
I also don't believe in reducing the minimum wage. It should be higher, not lower.



Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
CM, I am going to have to disagree with you a bit. I don't think we NEED illegal aliens. If illegals left today. Someone would do the work. Wages would go up to attract people.

The fact that these guys/gals are willing to work for next to nothing combined with the fact that employers are unable to pay enough should tell you something.

It tells me that the minimum wage is too high. Why take a labor intensive job when you can go work at an air conditioned Walgreens with no skills whatsoever and make $5-$6 an hour with benefits.

No its, not a lot, but an illegal is willing to work the same job for at least half that. The illegal and the employer doesn't need to conform to OSHA standards or even Federal rules, because they have the illegal by the balls - the fear of losing their job or deportation keeps violations from from even seeing the light of day.

In florida, all of the trades are owned by hispanics, and a huge percentage are illegals. Very few companies adhere to Federal Laws. They don't have to, no-one enforces the laws.

The answer is to punish the Employers with huge fines, make the rules of employment more strict and drop the minimum wage. Employers will immediately reverse the problem and illegals will return home for lack of available jobs.

Do an amnesty program for people that are here illegally but have verifiable employment for the past 2 years. Still fine the employers that knowingly hired illegals, though.

David Dreier of california has come up with a measure that will help with the document fraud issue. It's a start, but American need to toughen up on this issue. Big time.
post #30 of 52
>Students, cabbies, waitresses, construction workers, cooks, maids, teachers, customer service representatives, you name it. They work jobs. Sometimes they apply for citizenship. You seem to think that legal immigrants come here to be slaves.<

That was my point. Legal immigrants fill the same jobs as illegal immigrants, except by law they must earn at least the minimum wage, something that businesses hiting illegals dont want to do.


<Ask Rupert Murdoch.<

Oh, please



>And sweatshops. Don't forget the sweatshops. And construction jobs. Every time I drive past the day-worker mob on the corner of 30th and Wall in my town, I wonder how many houses get built on the cheap because a truck drives up and a guy yells out in Spanish that he needs 5 workers for the day.<

And that should stop. Construction jobs pay well and should go to Legal immigrants and Americans.



>Indeed, life would go on. It would be a great deal more expensive in many ways, but it would go on. How do you think Americans are able to sustain the lifestyles they do? Wear the clothes they do? It's because someone, somewhere, is willing to work for less than an American is. And every time an American purchases clothes or cars or TVs or whatever that was built in conditions that an American would consider slavery, that person becomes complicit in perpetuating that slavery.<

Let it be more expensive. The increase in tax dollars would more than offset it. Our taxes go to schooling and health care for illegals while they contribute nothing to the tax rolls and send most of their money back home.
post #31 of 52
The Discraceful Republicans and Democrats both decided that it would be a non issue and both have done little to nothing and both refuse to even aknowledge this is a problem. All we need is some terrorist coming across the border and blowing up something and then these 2 clowns( republicans /democrats) would be running in beating there chest on how they will do something. Until then it will be more of the same politics of doing nothing. Republican Party and the Democratic party arent about America they are about special interests until there is some big event they can capitalize on. Both Party's Suck when it comes to doing whats right for America. Sad that we cant get elected officials to stand up for the country they are suppose to stand up for. I would like to know who these clowns represent because they dont represent America.
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post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
That was my point. Legal immigrants fill the same jobs as illegal immigrants, except by law they must earn at least the minimum wage, something that businesses hiting illegals dont want to do.

I don't think you read the whole list. The point is that illegal immigrant fill some of the same jobs as legal immigrants. But there are man, many jobs that are off-limits to an illegal immigrant.

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Oh, please

You're the one who brought up legal immigrants coming over here and working as CEOs. Murdoch was first a legal immigrant and then a naturalized US citizen.

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And that should stop. Construction jobs pay well and should go to Legal immigrants and Americans.

And watch the cost of housing shoot up.

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Let it be more expensive. The increase in tax dollars would more than offset it.

Huh? You mean to tell me you're willing to pay $8 for a potato?

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Our taxes go to schooling and health care for illegals while they contribute nothing to the tax rolls and send most of their money back home.

Except for all the cheap slave labor we get out of them which allows us to maintain the standard of living we do.
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post #33 of 52
I think my first problem with illegal immigration into this country is that, well, it is illegal. We have legal means for people to emigrate to this country, so it isn't as if the borders are closed to everyone.

My second problem stems from the first, practical and economic issues aside, to do just about anything but round them all up and send them home seems tanamount to condoning the breaking of U.S. law. We are (well sort of it seems) afterall a nation of laws.

Regarding this second point, I like to ask the question..."What if we applied this approach...turning a blind eye I mean...to other laws?"

Lots of people murder in the country. Should we just go ahead and make it legal?

Lots of people steal. Should we just make it legal?

It seems to me that the economic and practical issues are poor excuses for turning something the is wrong (illegal immigration) into something that is right (amnesty/guest worker program).

Regarding the economics too...labor is generally a supply/demand issue. If the supply declines (8-10 million workers leave), but the demand remains constant, the price (wages) will have to go up. This is obvious. It strikes me that the "blind eye" strategy towards Mexican worker immigration is nothing more than a way to flood the labor market with supply. Some folks believe this will lead to "$9 oranges". Perhaps it will. Perhaps the price inflation will not be so extreme. Such a suggestion ("$9 oranges") is a clever propaganda technique to scare average Americans into accepting (turning a "blind eye") to this lawlessness. Of course what the "$9 orange" folks fail to factor into the equation is that with the higher wages paid to the (now) American citizen employees (virtually wiping out unemployment BTW), they will also be legally paying their taxes, healthcare, other goods and services. Certainly the tax revenue alone would (possibly) offset increase in the prices of goods and services as result of the new higher wages.

Now...reality...

What to do? I don't know. It seems like there more than practical, economic and legal matters to consider. Perhaps moral issues...by this I mean the morality of just dumping a bunch of people back into Mexico and the potential poverty/life loss scenario that could create.

Clearly there would be a huge short-term impact economically speaking...but as I said above, I'm getting tired of hearing economic reasons to turn wrong things into right things for someone's convenience.

This issue in some ways is quite simple...but digging deeper requires much more thought.

I know one thing...I am really pissed off about "political correcting" of lawless behavior ("illegal immigrant/alien" -> "non-citizen worker"...bleh)...why not "thief" -> "person property liberator". Let's call things what they are.

But let's also solve the problem. If we aren't going to enforce the damn laws...take them off the books and stop the farce.
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
The Discraceful Republicans and Democrats both decided that it would be a non issue and both have done little to nothing and both refuse to even aknowledge this is a problem. All we need is some terrorist coming across the border and blowing up something and then these 2 clowns( republicans /democrats) would be running in beating there chest on how they will do something. Until then it will be more of the same politics of doing nothing. Republican Party and the Democratic party arent about America they are about special interests until there is some big event they can capitalize on. Both Party's Suck when it comes to doing whats right for America. Sad that we cant get elected officials to stand up for the country they are suppose to stand up for. I would like to know who these clowns represent because they dont represent America.

Both parties are owned by special interests. Then there are those that will do anything ot say anything if they feel it will help get them elected.
We finally have Republicans controlling the white house and congress, you would think the law and order party would finally do something about illegal immigration and our porous borders. Not happening, because Bush is a pussy and Big Business loves cheap labor, and big business now owns the Republicans.

There are about a hundred or so true Republicans who are trying to fight the good fight aganist this lunacy, but they are outnumbered by the scumbags who will sell this country down the river.
post #35 of 52
>You're the one who brought up legal immigrants coming over here and working as CEOs. Murdoch was first a legal immigrant and then a naturalized US citizen.<

Obviously a tiny number. Most legal immigrants are poor and uneducated.



>And watch the cost of housing shoot up.<

Ha! Housing costs are so high partly because there are so many people looking for housing. Cutting population growth would lower housing costs.



>Huh? You mean to tell me you're willing to pay $8 for a potato?><

Farm work should have a guest worker program-without leading to citizenship



>Except for all the cheap slave labor we get out of them which allows us to maintain the standard of living we do. <

Depends what you think defines out standard of living. My parents had a much easier time of it than my generation does-and that was without massive illegal immigration
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Obviously a tiny number. Most legal immigrants are poor and uneducated.

And Bill Gates is the exception to the rule, as well. But people always bring him up as an example of the American dream. I would argue that lots and lots of Americans are poor and uneducated, but that doesn't mean they should be made into slaves.

Quote:
Ha! Housing costs are so high partly because there are so many people looking for housing. Cutting population growth would lower housing costs.

Cutting population growth would lower housing costs, MAYBE, in 25 years. Housing costs have to do with FAR, far more than simple demand. For instance, when the US government buys up all the lumber at Lowe's and Home Depot to build bases in Iraq and Afghanistan, housing costs go up.

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Farm work should have a guest worker program-without leading to citizenship

I think anyone who is willing to work in this country should be considered a candidate for citizenship.

Quote:
Depends what you think defines out standard of living. My parents had a much easier time of it than my generation does-and that was without massive illegal immigration

My parents (early 50s...they were young'uns when they had me) were busy avoiding the draft and then being unemployed under Carter/Reagan then and sitting in line for gasoline. Their parents were busy fighting WW2 and surviving the depression. Their parents were fighting WWI.

And if you think they did all of this without "massive illegal immigration," I suggest you listen to the Woody Guthrie song "Deportees." If you think that "illegals" haven't been steaming into this country since its inception (and if you don't think the "founding fathers" were the equivalent of "illegal immigrants," you're utterly deluded).

As a good friend of mine pointed out to me earlier this evening: do you know what they called illegal immigration 100 years ago?

Immigration.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
As a good friend of mine pointed out to me earlier this evening: do you know what they called illegal immigration 100 years ago?

Immigration.

This sounds cute...but it certainly seems wrong. We certainly had massive (european) immigration at that time...but all of it illegal? They (mostly) come throuh Ellis Island?
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
This sounds cute...but it certainly seems wrong. We certainly had massive (european) immigration at that time...but all of it illegal? They (mostly) come throuh Ellis Island?

Ellis Island was the only place immigrants entered the country? The only immigrants we had were European?

The buddy who gave me that little quip is a US Labor historian who I've known for 15 years, so I tend to trust even his quips.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Ellis Island was the only place immigrants entered the country? The only immigrants we had were European?

I didn't say that. But certainly these were the majority at that time.

Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
The buddy who gave me that little quip is a US Labor historian who I've known for 15 years, so I tend to trust even his quips.

Fine...I'll give the benefit of the doubt. It just sounded dubious to me. That's all I was saying (NOTE: You didn't cite your source with such detail before).
post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
But certainly these were the majority at that time.

Do we actually know that with any certainty?

Quote:
(NOTE: You didn't cite your source with such detail before). [/B]

Why should it matter? I could just be making it up.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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