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Death squads: Negroponte makes his move

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
He's been a bit quiet but this little gem has all the hallmarks of his own unique brand of 'solution' to the Iraq quagmire:

Quote:
Now, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administrations battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers. Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a successdespite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal. (Among the current administration officials who dealt with Central America back then is John Negroponte, who is today the U.S. ambassador to Iraq. Under Reagan, he was ambassador to Honduras.)

They still consider it a success

Looks like they're never going to learn. But they're going to have to 'not learn' the hard way.

Every time they ****-up they just up the ante, and every time they up the ante
the ****-up. Fallujah was the 'extreme measure' necessary to sort out the mess and it just made it worse. And killed thousands of civilians.

Do they really think that Death Squads are going to solve the problem ?

The fact is they cannot win a WOT because it is a war on a method - they don't even know who they are fighting.

If Bush had stopped at Afghanistan, spent the money used in the Iraq war in rebuilding, education and investing then the insurgents would be on the run now and the WOT nearly won.

Now this is going to get worse and these maniacs are threatening us all. If the Iraq election fails badly and Death Squads start roaming into Syria, we are one massive terrorist attack nearer and then Bush will just up the ante again and again - we are near Armageddon than we think.


MSNBC Link
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 15
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
If Bush had stopped at Afghanistan, spent the money used in the Iraq war in rebuilding, education and investing then the insurgents would be on the run now and the WOT nearly won.

"in rebuilding, education and investing" what? Where?
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
"in rebuilding, education and investing" what? Where?

I know a lot of Afghans, many of them radicals.

I know people who cheered and cried for joy when the Taleban were defeated. And why ?

Because they believed Blair when he said 'we will not let you down this time', because they believed that now at last - after the Russians and the Fundies - that Afghanistan could once again be the modern forward looking country it was in the sixties.

They were wrong. Nothing has changed and it is not going to.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
"in rebuilding, education and investing" what? Where?

Anyway, bit early to derail....any thoughts on those death squads ?

What's the moral Christological position on that sort of thing these days ? I know it was cool in the Crusades but I'm a bit behind lately......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #5 of 15
Experience tells us it is a bad idea. Paramilitaries turn into the next generation of warlords. Hiring mercenaries to do your killing for you is both hypocritical an amoral. From the "freedom fighters " of Central America to the paramilitaries of Colombia to the northern alliance of Afghanistan, the results are ugly. It is nothing but a way for a government to separate itself from things it would rather pretend it dos not belive in.
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #6 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Experience tells us it is a bad idea. Paramilitaries turn into the next generation of warlords. Hiring mercenaries to do your killing for you is both hypocritical an amoral. From the "freedom fighters " of Central America to the paramilitaries of Colombia to the northern alliance of Afghanistan, the results are ugly. It is nothing but a way for a government to separate itself from things it would rather pretend it dos not belive in.

Definitely.

A bad idea and one that will undoubtedly blow-back sooner rather than later.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #7 of 15
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
He's been a bit quiet but this little gem has all the hallmarks of his own unique brand of 'solution' to the Iraq quagmire:



They still consider it a success

Looks like they're never going to learn. But they're going to have to 'not learn' the hard way.

Every time they ****-up they just up the ante, and every time they up the ante
the ****-up. Fallujah was the 'extreme measure' necessary to sort out the mess and it just made it worse. And killed thousands of civilians.

Do they really think that Death Squads are going to solve the problem ?

The fact is they cannot win a WOT because it is a war on a method - they don't even know who they are fighting.

If Bush had stopped at Afghanistan, spent the money used in the Iraq war in rebuilding, education and investing then the insurgents would be on the run now and the WOT nearly won.

Now this is going to get worse and these maniacs are threatening us all. If the Iraq election fails badly and Death Squads start roaming into Syria, we are one massive terrorist attack nearer and then Bush will just up the ante again and again - we are near Armageddon than we think.


MSNBC Link

I can't be;lieve that this is even close to an option!!!!!


This is just another small tick in the direction of complete Fascism . . . too small to elicit concerted outcry but cumulatively with all of the others, a part of a huge black-iron prison!!!

Hell . . . . the American Government officially apologized for backing those death squads!!!! Why would this suddenly seem like a 'good' idea?!?!?!

I guess the fuucked-up shiitheads that are currently in power are not the same ones that apologized . . . . they propably never saw anything wrong with that idiotic, tragic, catastrophic and useless strategy in the first place!!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #8 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I can't be;lieve that this is even close to an option!!!!!


This is just another small tick in the direction of complete Fascism . . . too small to elicit concerted outcry but cumulatively with all of the others, a part of a huge black-iron prison!!!

Hell . . . . the American Government officially apologized for backing those death squads!!!! Why would this suddenly seem like a 'good' idea?!?!?!

I guess the fuucked-up shiitheads that are currently in power are not the same ones that apologized . . . . they propably never saw anything wrong with that idiotic, tragic, catastrophic and useless strategy in the first place!!!

You know the most disturbing thing - they don't even TRY to dress anything up anymore, they don't care if this half-baked plan gets referenced to the Salvadorian scenario.

YYIt doesn't surprise me that they would try to do it, but to make it public knowledge - and you would think that they might be sensitive and try to 'package' it but no, they just don't see the need to.

Maybe they're right. No-one is going to do anything and most people are way past it now one way or another.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #9 of 15
Bwahahahahahah
post #10 of 15
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
...
They were wrong. Nothing has changed and it is not going to.

He said on the same day the UN announced they were just finishing up the collection of heavy military equipment, tanks mortars ect, in Afghanistan.
post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I know a lot of Afghans, many of them radicals.

I know people who cheered and cried for joy when the Taleban were defeated. And why ?

Because they believed Blair when he said 'we will not let you down this time', because they believed that now at last - after the Russians and the Fundies - that Afghanistan could once again be the modern forward looking country it was in the sixties.

They were wrong. Nothing has changed and it is not going to.

So you are referring to having spent the money in rebuilding Afghanistan. Okay. It wasn't clear to me from the statement. Understand now.
post #12 of 15
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
You know the most disturbing thing - they don't even TRY to dress anything up anymore, they don't care if this half-baked plan gets referenced to the Salvadorian scenario.

YYIt doesn't surprise me that they would try to do it, but to make it public knowledge - and you would think that they might be sensitive and try to 'package' it but no, they just don't see the need to.

Maybe they're right. No-one is going to do anything and most people are way past it now one way or another.

This is my concern as well.

Nothing really surprises me anymore when it comes to Bush strategy and tactics. They've made it clear that they recognize no limits.

But the steady coarsening of American sensibilities, the idea that all manner of things that betray the values of our country are now somehow necessary because "the terrorists" present such an imminent danger that to recognize normative standards of behavior is tantamount to "suicide": that doesn't begin or end with a single administration.

After the equivocal national response to the idea that we are now a nation that routinely uses torture it's easy to imagine that Bush could simply go on TV and tell us: gonna start cleaning house from inside out in Iraq. "Freedom fighters" redux. People expressing the opinion that death squads are amoral and counter-productive would be ridiculed across a broad spectrum right wing media as "terrorist lovers".

The difference between then and now is that then they pretended that the killings didn't happen, or that it was just a few bad eggs, or that it was orchestrated by the opposition to make the freedom fighters look bad.

Now, I can't see where there wouldn't be a sizable portion of the American people more than happy to see Iraqis slaughtered by clandestine squads, and more than happy to take the governments word for it that "they were all bad".
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #13 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
This is my concern as well.

Nothing really surprises me anymore when it comes to Bush strategy and tactics. They've made it clear that they recognize no limits.

But the steady coarsening of American sensibilities, the idea that all manner of things that betray the values of our country are now somehow necessary because "the terrorists" present such an imminent danger that to recognize normative standards of behavior is tantamount to "suicide": that doesn't begin or end with a single administration.

After the equivocal national response to the idea that we are now a nation that routinely uses torture it's easy to imagine that Bush could simply go on TV and tell us: gonna start cleaning house from inside out in Iraq. "Freedom fighters" redux. People expressing the opinion that death squads are amoral and counter-productive would be ridiculed across a broad spectrum right wing media as "terrorist lovers".

The difference between then and now is that then they pretended that the killings didn't happen, or that it was just a few bad eggs, or that it was orchestrated by the opposition to make the freedom fighters look bad.

Now, I can't see where there wouldn't be a sizable portion of the American people more than happy to see Iraqis slaughtered by clandestine squads, and more than happy to take the governments word for it that "they were all bad".

Yes, and you also have to wonder how effective torture actually is.

I mean I read an article the other day (mentioned in the Iran prepping thread) about a detainee insurgent who confessed that he'd met Khamenei and Iran was funding the insurgents.

Leaving aside the ridiculousness of this claim, there seems little doubt that it was most likely extracted under duress (shall we say) and certainly it is exactly what the Bush admin want to hear.

So really, if you know what they want to hear - which you must under torture as they are asking you - how long before you confess ? Whether it's true or not.

But then this admin aren't interested in the truth anyway....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yes, and you also have to wonder how effective torture actually is.

I mean I read an article the other day (mentioned in the Iran prepping thread) about a detainee insurgent who confessed that he'd met Khamenei and Iran was funding the insurgents.

Leaving aside the ridiculousness of this claim, there seems little doubt that it was most likely extracted under duress (shall we say) and certainly it is exactly what the Bush admin want to hear.

So really, if you know what they want to hear - which you must under torture as they are asking you - how long before you confess ? Whether it's true or not.

But then this admin aren't interested in the truth anyway....

That's the horror of it. By framing the debate as "would you or wouldn't you be willing to do whatever it takes to stop "terrorists" from killing Americans"
the Bush apologists can repeatedly dismiss revulsion at their tactics as "liberal hand-wringing", without ever addressing fundamental questions of results.

That started with the run-up to the war, when being opposed to the invasion was cast as being "for Saddam" or some kind of "peace at any price" week-kneed appeaser.

The very substantive questions about the consequences of invading Iraq-- what that would achieve, if that result would be worth the cost, or even a net positive for the US, what the post-war landscape would look like, etc.-- got drowned out by the incessant talk of how "the left" didn't care about 9/11, wasn't sufficiently appalled by Saddam's misdeeds, didn't have the heart to take the battle to "the enemy"-- well, you remember.

And every misbegotten step since then has been fiercely defended by exactly the same rhetoric. Against torture? Tell it to the 9/11 widow! Unnerved by our abandonment of international treaties? Pussy! We're killing civilians? Better them than us!

And at no point do the questions get asked: does any of this further American interests? Does it hasten the end of the fighting in Iraq? Does it lessen the likelihood of a terrorist attack on American soil? Does it increase the safety of American troops?

And I think those questions don't get asked because the answer keeps coming up "no". Killing civilians and torture and ignoring the Geneva convention and incarcerating people without access to any process at all and whatever evil little schemes that Bush has up his sleeve do not work. They make things worse.

Bad policy, bad ethics, bad results. Every bit of it can be argued against as counter-productive on strictly pragmatic grounds, but somehow the discussion keeps circling back to "who has the balls to get the job done vs. liberals who faint at the sight of blood".
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I can't be;lieve that this is even close to an option!!!!!


This is just another small tick in the direction of complete Fascism . . .

No, it would be called fascism if the US would use death-squads and other nice things within the US, but when the US uses them in other countries it's called "war on terror"!

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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