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Mac mini misses its target consumer - Page 2

post #41 of 290
Worst part, IMO, is skimping on the ports.

No Mic port. This rules out many business sales, unless they want to dick around with flakey USB adaptors.

A/V outputs are not of high enough quality to use in a home theater. There goes another potential market for the Mini: a home entertainment system server.

No way to upgrade nothin'. Video chipset? Nope. CPU? Nope. RAM? Sort of, but an Apple tech has got to do it. Yet more landfill fodder from Apple.

It's just overwhelmingly mediocre all around.

At least the lack of a keyboard/mouse can be rectified by spending more money. No amount of money will put a new video card in the Mini or add an extra port to it.
post #42 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SQUÅSH
I'm wondering if Bill has taken his finger out of your back yet? Has he? Because i don't want his arm in the way of my foot when i insert it up your @ss. Oh i feel better..keep talking Bill..I mean steve666

Congradulations on the biggest waste of time post of the night.

Now, after you get your head wedged out of Jobs' ass maybe you can begin a rational discussion.
post #43 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Worst part, IMO, is skimping on the ports.

No Mic port. This rules out many business sales, unless they want to dick around with flakey USB adaptors.

A/V outputs are not of high enough quality to use in a home theater. There goes another potential market for the Mini: a home entertainment system server.

No way to upgrade nothin'. Video chipset? Nope. CPU? Nope. RAM? Sort of, but an Apple tech has got to do it. Yet more landfill fodder from Apple.

It's just overwhelmingly mediocre all around.

At least the lack of a keyboard/mouse can be rectified by spending more money. No amount of money will put a new video card in the Mini or add an extra port to it.


Please, you're making sense, noone here will understand you
post #44 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
not really since you can get a PC for the same price with a monitor, ekyboard, mouse, and speakers

OK - see that's a completely different issue.

The Mac Mini isn't for PC people who want a $499 PC. These people don't have any money and Apple won't make anything off of them.

The Mini is for PC people who already have a PC, and want a Mac, but don't like how expensive the PowerMacs are, and don't want to have to buy another monitor (or they want to "CHOOSE" the monitor). We have heard it over and over and over again.

Now they have exactly what they have been asking for. No, it's not "upgradeable", because that would blow away the incentive to purchase the high-margin PowerMacs. But it's a Mac, it runs OS X, and it's cheap.

Now it is their turn to put up or shut up. Apple is NOT going to give them a $499 "tower" that they can order parts from NewEgg and get off cheap. Towers are bigger and heavier and cost more to ship. Apple's mobo is custom - there is no reason to have a tower just to fit the mobo. Also, because it is custom, they don't just order 2 million of them off the shelf. It costs more.

Apple's margins are traditionally 27% or more, and I am assuming this product is no different. They have also done a great job in getting the upsell to more RAM, mouse, keyboard, Bluetooth, 802.11g, and DVD-R. If Apple cut margin to the bone on this, it would not be sustainable.

The best thing about this product, IMO, is that it will be a way to increase OS share. More OS X share means more potential money for developers, and maybe there is one who wants to write a killer speech-recognition app or a CAD app or other vertical apps and needs a few million more units to write for.
--Johnny
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--Johnny
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post #45 of 290
I do agree that having a proper Mac keyboard is a necessity, given the position of the command keys. However, I was thinking that maybe Apple's strategy is to try to upsell the bluetooth keyboard and mouse...
post #46 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Boukman
I do agree that having a proper Mac keyboard is a necessity, given the position of the command keys. However, I was thinking that maybe Apple's strategy is to try to upsell the bluetooth keyboard and mouse...

That might be, but then they should have installed bluetooth standard
post #47 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
No amount of money will put a new video card in the Mini

For the Love of All Things Holy, would you people please stop chanting about upgrading the damn video card. Is that written above some locker room where PCers go to work out or something? I swear they all say the exact same thing.

Apple does not want you to upgrade the video card. There is no video card. There is no reason to upgrade the video card. It makes no sense to put a $500 video card in a $499 computer.
--Johnny
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post #48 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Boukman
I do agree that having a proper Mac keyboard is a necessity, given the position of the command keys. However, I was thinking that maybe Apple's strategy is to try to upsell the bluetooth keyboard and mouse...

Exactly.
--Johnny
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post #49 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by lundy
OK - see that's a completely different issue.

The Mac Mini isn't for PC people who want a $499 PC. These people don't have any money and Apple won't make anything off of them.

The Mini is for PC people who already have a PC, and want a Mac, but don't like how expensive the PowerMacs are, and don't want to have to buy another monitor (or they want to "CHOOSE" the monitor). We have heard it over and over and over again.

Now they have exactly what they have been asking for. No, it's not "upgradeable", because that would blow away the incentive to purchase the high-margin PowerMacs. But it's a Mac, it runs OS X, and it's cheap.

Now it is their turn to put up or shut up. Apple is NOT going to give them a $499 "tower" that they can order parts from NewEgg and get off cheap. Towers are bigger and heavier and cost more to ship. Apple's mobo is custom - there is no reason to have a tower just to fit the mobo. Also, because it is custom, they don't just order 2 million of them off the shelf. It costs more.

Apple's margins are traditionally 27% or more, and I am assuming this product is no different. They have also done a great job in getting the upsell to more RAM, mouse, keyboard, Bluetooth, 802.11g, and DVD-R. If Apple cut margin to the bone on this, it would not be sustainable.

The best thing about this product, IMO, is that it will be a way to increase OS share. More OS X share means more potential money for developers, and maybe there is one who wants to write a killer speech-recognition app or a CAD app or other vertical apps and needs a few million more units to write for.

Yes, the point was to increase market share, but to do so you need lower profit margins and just sell more of them, a la Dell. Their business model works.
Apple, by cutting this computer to the bare minimum is giving people reason to think about the purchase. What Apple needs, IMHO, is a product that PC users say-Thats it, I'm buying one! I dont think Apple hit the bullseye with the mini.
I hope I'm wrong, but knowing PC users, I think Apple has missed many sales by being A)Too fancy and B) Too cheap.
post #50 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
That might be, but then they should have installed bluetooth standard

If they don't install BT standard on the $1900 iMac what makes you think they'd even consider adding it to the Mac mini?
post #51 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by lundy
For the Love of All Things Holy, would you people please stop chanting about upgrading the damn video card. Is that written above some locker room where PCers go to work out or something? I swear they all say the exact same thing.

Apple does not want you to upgrade the video card. There is no video card. There is no reason to upgrade the video card. It makes no sense to put a $500 video card in a $499 computer.

I actually agree with you on this point-this isn't a gamers machine.
It would have been a nice option, but video cards rarely get upgraded by the average consumer.

The PM G5 is a gamers machine.

OK, thats it for me for the night. Carry on.
post #52 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by PBG4 Dude
If they don't install BT standard on the $1900 iMac what makes you think they'd even consider adding it to the Mac mini?

Then that wasnt part of their strategy
post #53 of 290
Hmmm here i sit staring at my powermac(quicksilver) dual ghz, all those slots. I haven't upgraded a thing since I bought it with the free ram still sitting at a gig.

I look at the mini and well it's really all i needed.

GG GF

steve/ bill you listening?
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post #54 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SQUÅSH
Hmmm here i sit stairing at my powermac(quicksilver) dual ghz, all those slots. I haven't upgraded a thing since I bought it with the free ram still sitting at a gig.

I look at the mini and well it's really all i needed.

GG GF

steve/ bill you listening?

It may be all I need also, but we think different.
Do PC users?
post #55 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Why cant I just add RAM myself? Why does Apple charge so much for RAM?

The RAM issue is the only sticking point in my opinion. It made me think twice before ordering mine with 512MB. I'm sure in a few months, I'll have to haul it to the shop to get them to install a Gigabyte stick. I'm guessing this Mac has "thermal paste" like the iMac 2, preventing consumer access.
post #56 of 290
The market is for those wanting to try OS X..to switch. For mom and dad that are sick of the new dell seeming slow after 2 months with adware spyware viruses. The ones that are tired of having to do the extra work just to keep her running.

It's a perfect way to just unplug the box and plug in the new one to the monitor and keyboard. Oh and please with the keyboards not being usb....sell them that adapter for $20 or whatever, or are you that bad at selling pc's?

I think they are the perfect way to get those outsiders looking in. Wanting to take a chance but not a costly chance like that new PC, because bottomline is even PC users like cheap, but most spend about a grand. Why, because

I just don't know where you get off bashing the least expensive mac EVER. You got that..EVER
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post #57 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
They are trying to sell to customers that are used to buying things the PC way. They will price compare.
They will say, how can they sell a computer without a mouse and keyboard? Why cant I just add RAM myself? Why does Apple charge so much for RAM?

These will be issues even though you guys dont want to see it.

Apple can't compete on price with P.C.'s - no way. But I don;t think that's the point. This machine is supposed to be the cheapest Mac, not the cheapest P.C.

And while it doesn't come with a keyboard and monitor, it also doesn't come with other things as well, like virus and spyware vulnerabilities.

Plus there are all the things it does come with - iLife and OSX.

It's positives do a good job of balancing out the negatives - I think it's going to do great. I'm just happy they didn't put a fucking G3 into it.
post #58 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Yes, the point was to increase market share, but to do so you need lower profit margins and just sell more of them, a la Dell. Their business model works.

You are off. Apple is sitting around the low 20's (%) for profit margin, but spending a buttload of money for R&D and application development, so their margins are null...

now Dell Has some of the highest profit margins and the lowest cost in the industry according to the Forbes link from may 04' most recent I could find in a quick search. Apple is not Dell, and they could never be because they actually produce something. I guess you couldn't understand that. I asked you for numbers and all you can do is say go and look. I already know, you do not, you are just spouting off whatever comes into that tiny closed brain of yours and not looking at the real facts of industry.

end of line...
post #59 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by ijerry
You are off. Apple is sitting around the low 20's (%) for profit margin, but spending a buttload of money for R&D and application development, so their margins are null...

I really wonder what their cost is on the Mac mini. I mean, the thing has no hinges, latches, complex molds or anything. On top of all that, shipping costs must be a complete joke - 12 of those things must take up the same space as a regular P.C. same goes for the iPod shuffle.
post #60 of 290
To everyone talking about how much more you get with the cheap PC please follow the steps below.

1. Go to dell.com.
2. Click the cheap PC (AKA Dimension 3000).
3. Leave it on the 2.4 processor (I'm not getting into the speed comparison)
4. Bump to Windows XP Professional.
5. Move to the 1 year warranty. Longer phone service than Apple but you'll be on hold for hours and won't be able to understand the tech anyway. You also can visit a Mac Genius at the Apple Store for free help.
6. Leave it on the 512 memory
7. Leave it on the 40 Gig Drive.
8. Select CD-RW/DVD-ROM.
9. Add RecordNow! since you'll want to make it a little easier to burn...
10. Save $50 remove the monitor.
11. Add IEEE 1394.
12. Click Update Price.

New total $685 +$50 mail in rebate. This still lacks option to add Wireless and Bluetooth.

Now, try this.

1. Go to Apple.com
2. Get to the Mac Mini on the Apple Store.
3. Up it to 512 MB Ram
4. Add wired keyboard and mouse
5. Click Update

New total $632. This also includes a REAL GPU (32 MB rather than integrated that uses your CPU).

I'd say Apple did a pretty good job with the price and it will still look GOOD on your desk!
post #61 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Tomahawk

New total $632. This also includes a REAL GPU (32 MB rather than integrated that uses your CPU).

Don't forget free fucking shipping!
post #62 of 290
I can't believe anyone is complaining about buying a Keyboard/Mouse... It's $30 FREAKIN' DOLLARS. If they included them and it cost $529, would it really have made any difference.

As someone said, this is the cheapest Mac, not cheapest PC, if you don't want to buy it, no one is forcing you. If you're going to pass up on a $499 mac because you're too cheap to buy a keyboard and mouse...you're an idiot simply put.
post #63 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by the cool gut
Don't forget free fucking shipping!

At the moment both products include free shipping...
post #64 of 290
The Mac Mini won't miss it's target consumer

Most folks who have been around here, will remember how many times on those boards have request such a computer.

A screenless cheap computer. Appe did it. If you want really cheap memory upgrade : forgot Apple. Same for the keyboard and the mouse.

Personally I am very happy that they do not include a mouse and a keyboard. The keyboard and mouse market for the mac is very small , thus third party companies where not interested in it. With the Mac mini, more companies will be interested in it. At the end we will have much more choice, when it comes to keyboard and mouses.
post #65 of 290
Here I see people using cubes, first generation G4 towers and have really slow OS X, and for those with even slower boxes even 8 and 9 is slow. For them getting mini makes a lot of sense as they at the cost of a G4 CPU upgrade get that CPU upgrade and faster video, USB2, new HD and CD-burner all in a small stylish box. While they can keep their keyboard, mouse and monitor if they are on a tight budget or spend more if they like that

At work this is brilliant, also at home as long as you do play very demanding games. Then you need a tower that cost at least 4 times that of the mini...
post #66 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
A/V outputs are not of high enough quality to use in a home theater. There goes another potential market for the Mini: a home entertainment system server.

Where have you gotten this information?
post #67 of 290
Only the worst sort of apologist would defend the lack of basic input devices -- keyboard and mouse should be included no matter what, especially since 97.3328946571038% of keyboards and mice are PS2 and not USB.

Needs two user serviceable RAM slots, and better HDD options as well. I hope they weren't so daft as to use 2.5" drives!

They could have made it a little bigger to address these concerns. At 8x8x2 instead of 6.5x6.5x2, it would have more room to add features at the same cost.

Kill the eMac in the consumer space and offer an non-neutered mini.
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post #68 of 290
What is the market for a Mac mini?? As much as they say it's for an iPod user who uses a PC and gives them a cheap alternative, I'm not really convinced on that. I think the market is for people who've been begging for one for years. Education, businesses, people who just need a small machine to run their stuff but nothing fancy. If a school wanted to replace their Macs, what were their choices? Either buy new G5 towers which provide more power and take up more space than they ever would need, or buy iMacs or eMacs. Then you're buying new displays constantly and it's just not economically feasible to do something like that. A small business can buy a bunch of displays, keyboards, and mice from whomever and still get a great deal on a bunch of Mac mini's. In the long run, it's more affordable and it becomes the best education/office solution that apple has ever invented.
My only question is how does iSight fit onto that little bugger?
post #69 of 290
It seems like a reasonably priced computer, as long as you take it stock. Want DVD-R? $100. 512MB upgrade? $75. Remember, you lose your warranty if you do any upgrades yourself, so you're stuck getting upgrades installed by authorized service centers.

Still, I think this is a great deal. I think I can get my boss to pick up one with the DVD-R & RAM upgrade.
post #70 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
Only the worst sort of apologist would defend the lack of basic input devices -- keyboard and mouse should be included no matter what, especially since 97.3328946571038% of keyboards and mice are PS2 and not USB.

Needs two user serviceable RAM slots, and better HDD options as well. I hope they weren't so daft as to use 2.5" drives!

They could have made it a little bigger to address these concerns. At 8x8x2 instead of 6.5x6.5x2, it would have more room to add features at the same cost.

Kill the eMac in the consumer space and offer an non-neutered mini.

I think you guys are missing the big picture here, SIZE! I looked on every major PC computer site and couldn't find one machine that even resembles the size and weight of the mini Mac. Ok wait, I did find one AMD; they make this mini PC for third world countries and it uses a embedded chip, ppsssst yeah right. Im usually the first one to Criticize Apple for being flat out cheap with their computers but this time I think they nailed it. This is going to be the first workstation that I can put in my backpack without feeling a burden. It might be a little slow for OSX(Aqua), but it would make a perfect Darwin, Linux or BSD machine.
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post #71 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Baron von Smiley
What is the market for a Mac mini??

That's my question too \ . Certainly it is not for long time Mac users who have AIOs. Unless they are willing to buy a display too. I do not know at this point how many eMac and iMac users would like to abandon the simplicity of the AIO concept for this Mac mini.

As for PC users: as it has already been pointed out, the vast majority of the keyboards and mice in the PC world work on PS2 connectors. So virtually any PC user who wants to buy the Mac mini, needs to pay for a keyboard and mouse separately. Of course you can find them in really low prices, but I am not sure about the impact that would have on the average PC user the need to buy extra keyboard/mouse (or the fact the his usual keyboard/mouse is useless in the Mac mini). I presume this would create a negative feeling.

Another important point is zero user access in the internals of the machine. Why? Would it be so difficult to follow the iMac G5 paradigm? This is a mystery to me.
post #72 of 290
LOL keyboard and mouse argument is old....for practically nothing you can get both. Please it's the least expensive mac ever. so stop the crying like a bunch of PC bitches
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post #73 of 290
The eMac is still a pig of a machine, fat, retro-tech display... but it has more robustness built-in. USER serviceable dual RAM slots and airport card, audio-in/out, more ports...

The Mac mini should have these features. Rather than build it so small, they could have built the footprint 2" deeper and wider to accomodate desktop grade opticals and give space for these features.

HDTV is going to be real interesting here. If wireless I/O can come built in to the iBooks, then it can come built in to the iMac mini as well. With DVI out, a Mac under the hood, and BT converter, this becomes a great media centre/desktop, but Steve-O seems to have taken steps to intentionally handicap it.
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post #74 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by SQUÅSH
so stop the crying like a bunch of PC bitches

You just said it. This is why I have question marks in my mind when I am thinking about the target market of this Mac. I guess time will tell.

Personally I have not problems with this machine, I even consider buying two of them. But I am talking here about Mac AIO and PC users, which represent the vast majority of the potential buyers.
post #75 of 290
I think the Mac mini is the perfect computer for my Mom. She currently uses an IBM Aptiva that she spent over $6,000 on (it was beyond overkill: Bose speakers/powered sub and a 'media consol' which was pretty much her floppy and DVD drive taken out of the tower and put in a 2nd mini tower on her desk). She uses it to check her email and look at like two web sites a day. The thing is a 266mhz with 128mb of ram. It takes 9 literal minutes to boot up and freezes constantly.

So I am going to get her a Mac mini, keep her gigantic IBM monitor, keyboard, mouse as well as her Bose speakers and sub (although I think the sub has an IBM-proprietary hookup). But I don't really think that many people will buy them. It is, however, the perfect Mom computer.
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post #76 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Worst part, IMO, is skimping on the ports.

No Mic port. This rules out many business sales, unless they want to dick around with flakey USB adaptors.

A/V outputs are not of high enough quality to use in a home theater. There goes another potential market for the Mini: a home entertainment system server.

No way to upgrade nothin'. Video chipset? Nope. CPU? Nope. RAM? Sort of, but an Apple tech has got to do it. Yet more landfill fodder from Apple.

It's just overwhelmingly mediocre all around.

At least the lack of a keyboard/mouse can be rectified by spending more money. No amount of money will put a new video card in the Mini or add an extra port to it.

go watch the keynote and lsiten to jobs say "STRIPPED DOWN MAC." this computer is NOT about performance--its about PRICE. so deal with it.
post #77 of 290
Jesus steve, you are irreparably ignorant of how Apple does business.

Think Nintendo:
Nintendo selss you a basic machine (Gamecube, Gameboy) and then makes you pay for every little extra trinket if you want anything other than bare bones. You bait people in with the low price, and they usually don't mind spenind more to get it to be what they want it to be.

Same with the mini. You get the box. You probably already a keyboard/mouse/monitor. If you don't go eMac. If you do, you're covered, even if you have to fork over an extra $30 to get your PS/2 crap to work. (Most people don't give a shit about that extra $30 on the end. They know with tax it'll never be $499 anyway.) If you already have the mouse and keyboard, but want somethign to match, you'll spring for the Apple stuff. It's your choice to do so, and if you really want that match, you'll pay for it.

I think Apple is doing a pretty good job here of covering a lot of territory. Certainly there are a few things I'd like to see improved, but I'm not the typical PC user. They aren't pounding away with Photoshop, Illustrator, iPhoto, BBEdit, Firefox, iTunes, Transmit, Mail, Adium and Konfabulator all running all day pretty much every day.
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post #78 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
You just said it. This is why I have question marks in my mind when I am thinking about the target market of this Mac. I guess time will tell.

Personally I have not problems with this machine, I even consider buying two of them. But I am talking here about Mac AIO and PC users, which represent the vast majority of the potential buyers.

What do you question? That they won't spend $50 max on a keyboard and mouse? They seem to spend at least that yearly to keep spyware, adware, viruses, and all the crap in general they deal with just to keep their pc running. Let alone all the time and headaches trying to figure it out.

It's aimed at people sick of dealing with all the BS that have pc's. It's aimed at those looking for a cheap change. The keyboard and mouse or a $20 adapter won't stop them from buying. We already know millions of pc users were willing to spend more for ipods. I just don't see $50 for a few extras stopping people.
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post #79 of 290
Actually I think that not including keyboard and mouse is a great thing. Especially for those who want to purchase the Mac mini with built-in bluetooth to use the wireless keyboard and mouse. That way they won't have the cabled keyboard and mouse just lying around. You can just purchase what will be fit for you. That's why Apple made the design modular.
post #80 of 290
OK! LAY OFF THE VIDEO CARD
the 9200 isnt great, but damn, have you used it side by side with intel 810? that is the sort of thing that the would be switchers will have. In my case, a geforce 2, A 9200 is the perfect match for this thing, most displays that will be put on this thing cannot do more than 1600x1200, most people will use 1280x1024 and some even 1024x768, the 9200 will eat right through that without breaking a sweat, and will have room left over for core*.

The thing is great if there is one thing that was left out was a ps/2 to usb adapter for keyboards, I know they are cheap but they add to the "it all works out of the box" thing that apple is known for. Sadly, most PCs still use PS/2 keyboards, but mice are universaly usb now
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