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PowerMac - Anyone else waiting? - Page 3

post #81 of 633
I've been trying so hard to wait for the Rev. C PM's, but as someone noted before, the price/performance of the Wintel world can't be denied, I just configured this system at Dell for about $2100...


Dell Precision Workstation 670\tIntel® Xeon Processor 3.00GHz, 1MB L2 Cache\t6T30\t[221-4427]\t1
Operating System\tMicrosoft® Windows® XP Professional, SP2 with Media\tXPP2E\t[420-4860]\t11
2nd Processor (Must match speed selection above)\tIntel® Xeon Processor 3.00GHz, 1MB L2 cache\tPR30\t[311-3862]\t2
Memory\tFREE UPGRADE! 1GB,DDR SDRAM, 4x256 for the price of 512MB\t1GN4DYM\t[463-3042]\t3
Keyboard\tEntry Level, PS/2, No Hot Keys\tE\t[310-1609]\t4
Monitor\tNo Monitor Option\tN\t[320-3316]\t5
Graphic Cards\t128MB PCIe x16 ATI FireGL V3100, Dual VGA or DVI + VGA Capable\tATI128\t[320-3958]\t6
First Hard Drive\t80GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with DataBurst Cache without RAID\t80SAT\t[341-1138]\t8
Hard Drive Configuration\tC1- All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 1 to 2 drive total configuration\tSATA12\t[341-1113]\t9
Floppy Drive Options\t3.5 inch 1.44MB Floppy Drive\tFD\t[341-0497]\t10
Mouse\tDell USB 2-Button Mechanical Mouse with Scroll\tELD\t[310-5203]\t12
File System\tNTFS File System\tNTFS\t[420-3699]\t13
CD-ROM, DVD, and Read-Write Devices\t48X CD-ROM\tCD48\t[313-1304]\t16
Speakers\tNo Speaker option\tN\t[313-2663]\t18
Resource CD\tResources CD contains Diagnostics and Driver for Precision Systems\tRCD\t[310-5419]\t21
Hardware Support Services\t3 Year Basic Plan\tW3YOS\t[980-7000][980-7002]\t29
Onsite System Setup\tNo Onsite System Setup\tNOINSTL\t[900-9987]\t32
Quick Reference Guide\tQuick Reference Guide\tREF\t[310-5420]\t40
Energy Star\tEnergy Star\tES\t[310-4821]\t50
Mail- In Rebate\tNone\tNONE\t[463-1832]\t81
TOTAL: $2,108.00
post #82 of 633
Looks like a completely stripped down single-CPU system, except for the CPU and GPU.

I guess it depends on exactly what you hope to get out of the machine, but I could summon any number of reasons to pick a PM over that. Even without considering the fact that I don't like Windows, and I don't want to lose BBEdit, OmniGraffle, and the other top-shelf Mac-only apps I use daily, it only seems like a good deal on a workstation dedicated to rendering 3D scenes and little else.

What are you actually expecting to do with the machine? That should drive your choice.

Oh, and welcome to AppleInsider.
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post #83 of 633
I don't actually plan to buy this system, but it just points to the price/performance issue.

I am hoping to get the middle level model of the next revision and use my educational discount. I have my Dell 2005FPW already (same screen as 20 inch Cinema Display), so all I need is just my Mac.
post #84 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by lrrobinson
I don't actually plan to buy this system, but it just points to the price/performance issue.

By ignoring other issues, yes. If I was going to get a PowerMac, I'd much rather have the dual CPUs, onboard everything, expandability to 16GB RAM, etc., a reasonable semblance of quiet, bedrock reliability (not something you can always count on from Dell) and the ability to hook up two 30" Cinema Displays.

Quote:
I am hoping to get the middle level model of the next revision and use my educational discount. I have my Dell 2005FPW already (same screen as 20 inch Cinema Display), so all I need is just my Mac.

Enjoy!
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post #85 of 633
I agree with others who see an improvement of some sort
in the next few weeks.

The immediate and obvious update will surely bump the default
RAM to 512MB minimum.

The dual 1.8 & 2.0 towers should also see at least the 128MB GPU as a minimum.

Across the board price adjustments like the PowerBook.


I would love to see a PCI-e/ SLI motherboard update.
That seems to be the most important issue.


If they solve that issue, then they've allowed the Pro users
much more in workstation class expandability.

We may see a few more options added to the configurations.

10,000 RPM enterprise SATA HD's
ATI X800 XT
Superdrive update?



With what I'm reading about the fans running in the 2.5 water cooled towers,
Im not sure if they can afford the additional noise issue by over-clocking
to 2.8 +/-GHz. You guys are more qualified than me on that guess.

They HAVE to bring the prices down on the single G5 tower and will very likely put the current towers on clearance.
Gut feelings tell me that unit will eventually become some version
of a headless 1.8 G5 iMac CUBE. w PCI-X or PCIe from $1099.

That combined with a 20" display would bring the line just one step above the AIO iMac G5's starting at $1999.

Many will jump fast on any G5iMac 128MB GPU upgrade.

A 3 Ghz dual core PowerMac is what I hope for, but
others like me will probably leap at any solid PowerMac improvement.

I'm tired of waiting.



BTW,
putting my "Mac fund" in a 3 month CD would earn me a whopping 1.67%. ( don't ya just love banks! )

post #86 of 633
Quote:
I've been trying so hard to wait for the Rev. C PM's, but as someone noted before, the price/performance of the Wintel world can't be denied, I just configured this system at Dell for about $2100...

Dual Xeon for 2100.00 ain't half bad. Methinks that we need new Powermacs in the next 60 days.

I'm really growing weary of Apple's flaky upgrade cycles. This is one of the reasons why I think sites like Thinksecret need to exist. Apple's secrecy and obsfuscation of future plans is great for them but puts their users at odds.

We should know a bit about what's coming down the pipe. Time for Apple to move beyond the Dog and Pony show that exists today. Bring on the new Powermacs...and make'em good.
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post #87 of 633
The immediate and obvious update will surely bump the default
RAM to 512MB minimum.

The dual 1.8 & 2.0 towers should also see at least the 128MB GPU as a minimum.

Across the board price adjustments like the PowerBook.

If they solve that issue, then they've allowed the Pro users
much more in workstation class expandability.
10,000 RPM enterprise SATA HD's
ATI X800 XT
Superdrive update?

A 3 Ghz dual core PowerMac is what I hope for, but
others like me will probably leap at any solid PowerMac improvement.

I'm tired of waiting.



That's right! we need an upgrade very soon. I am also in the waiting game.
More Hard Drive, more RAM, Faster Superdrive with dual layer burner and lower prices across the board would please many people.

Maccentral has an interesting article about consumer Macs cannibalizing Pro Macs:

http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/02/02/10q/index.php

I understand they make more money there, but we professionals are relying on Macs for so many years. Apple cannot let us down.

Hopefully the upgrade for Pormacs will happen before WWDC. Steve Jobs likes impressive keynotes, my feeling Powerbook G5 there. But, before that Powermacs (hopefully March). And if the upgrade don't hit the 3 Ghz mark, is going to be pathetic for Apple and IBM to take more than 2 years to achieve that goal.
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post #88 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Dual Xeon for 2100.00 ain't half bad. Methinks that we need new Powermacs in the next 60 days.

I'm really growing weary of Apple's flaky upgrade cycles. This is one of the reasons why I think sites like Thinksecret need to exist. Apple's secrecy and obsfuscation of future plans is great for them but puts their users at odds.

I'd agree, but have you noticed that every time Apple tries to telegraph their plans, they get burned?

100 million songs sold! 3GHz!

The problem with being out on the edge like they are (not with every conceivable component, but with overall design and some crucial parts) is that not even they can be sure of what they'll release when.

Over on the other side, there was an article about how the Taiwanese manufacturers do their own laptop design now, and US (and other) companies simply rebrand the designs. That makes it a lot easier for those companies to say "we'll be offering this in x months." That, and anything daring ends up in a 10 pound luggable that's designed to present the least possible number of design obstacles...
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post #89 of 633
Quote:
The dual 1.8 & 2.0 towers should also see at least the 128MB GPU as a minimum

RAM specs for a GPU are rather dubious. It's a poor metric to use. A 128MB 5200fx isn't going to beat a 64MB 6600GT card. Larger frame buffers help if you have a lot of textures to store. That varies wildly. I agree though base RAM should be min 512MB. Why Apple ships the computers with 256MB is beyond me. They are creating a bad example and handcuffing OSX speed.

Looking at the consumer line...perhaps we see Apple decrease the price of the Powermac lineup. Powermacs are static in sales and this is understandable because the need for expansion cards is dwindling for the average consumer.
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post #90 of 633
First off...

X800 XT's aren't going to help the situation but add another graphics card in the middle of the pack. A 6800 Gt and 6800 Ultra will whomp on a X800 XT. Don't believe me? Go to anandtech.com and do some research. ATI is selling them for 500 a pop right now... so you can assume thats about the price apple will get rid of them for. This adds NO significance to graphic card line ups.

I do agree however that they need to bump up the graphic card situation. 9600xt as the default card in the most high end machine is insane. That card should at the VERY VERY LEAST be a 9800xt. Though it really should even be a 6800GT.

Either way I know on the next revs this will be fixed. They will have no choice but to drop the 5200 ultra. This card offers nothing and is the very bottom of the barrel for Core Technologies. Therefor they will have to drop it to allow it to be put in other machines.

As far as when these machines will come out... I know apple won't release any updates this quarter... so forget that much. If I had to pick dates I'd say April - June area. I would be willing to bet Apple releases Tiger and these machines at the same time. I do suspect that Tiger won't be announced at WWDC, but a bit earlier. Tiger affects everyone, not just developers. Developers have had almost a whole year to work on tiger and get their programs ready. This was last years theme, i doubt it will be this year's as well.

As far as upgrading to 2.8 970fx processors. Apple can do a few things here. Obviously they will stick with liquid cooling. I believe they need better fan control. IMO speeding up the fan to full blast for 30 seconds isn't the most efficient way to cool a machine. They should have silent low rpm fans running on this cooler all the time... instead of the jet airplane, my machine is leaving my desk, spinup every few minutes. I understand this is what they do now, but I believe they should spin up the fans a little faster. As it stands I can't hear them AT ALL... so spin em up a little more. It is my belief this is why the harddrives are where they are at. This will prevent HOT airflow from hitting the processors.

If I can have really cheap fans in my pc running 24/7 at 25db and barely hear it, then they can make some great fans that run at 22db and have better cooling.

I know hmur is aware of this so I'm not attacking him... but everything relies on IBM and their yields. It's not really apple's job to get those processors to work. Somehow everyone still blames apple. IBM has basically caught up with demand, except for 2.5 processors. This is a sign that they can't move the 2.5's down yet and replace with a faster machine. They WILL have to catch up with these processors before they can commit to another faster model. They are getting closer to getting these chips undercontrol. The fact that they've been catching up shows that their yields are getting much better. They've had to produce double the chips from last year.

As soon as their yields are under control, I'd expect to see a new powermac.

 

 

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post #91 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison


I'm really growing weary of Apple's flaky upgrade cycles. This is one of the reasons why I think sites like Thinksecret need to exist. Apple's secrecy and obsfuscation of future plans is great for them but puts their users at odds.

We should know a bit about what's coming down the pipe. Time for Apple to move beyond the Dog and Pony show that exists today. Bring on the new Powermacs...and make'em good.

Well said.
post #92 of 633
Emig,

The performance review at xlr8your mac showed the ATI X800XT
doing a pretty good job of holding it's own against the other current
offerings.

When you only have 3 PCI slots available, the ATI X800 XT will be preferred by those who want a 256MB GPU that only needs ONE
PCI slot.

The point we've all made here is that Apple needs to address the professional workstation upgrade issue allowing for industry specific
options that will keep Apple on the leading edge of Pro technology.
post #93 of 633
But the X800 XT is still slower than the Nvidia 6800 Ultra... so whats the point of adding it?

Are you saying that the x800 xt won't occupy a PCI slot next to the AGP slot? or are you saying that the x800 xt uses pci? I'm confused by your statement.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant it uses agp but won't occupy the space of the pci next to it... if so... then yah that's cool and understandable why they are needed. But I'd still prefer that 6800... but I have an extra PCI slot to spare.

 

 

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post #94 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by lrrobinson
I've been trying so hard to wait for the Rev. C PM's, but as someone noted before, the price/performance of the Wintel world can't be denied, I just configured this system at Dell for about $2100...


Dell Precision Workstation 670\tIntel® Xeon Processor 3.00GHz, 1MB L2 Cache\t6T30\t[221-4427]\t1
Operating System\tMicrosoft® Windows® XP Professional, SP2 with Media\tXPP2E\t[420-4860]\t11
2nd Processor (Must match speed selection above)\tIntel® Xeon Processor 3.00GHz, 1MB L2 cache\tPR30\t[311-3862]\t2
Memory\tFREE UPGRADE! 1GB,DDR SDRAM, 4x256 for the price of 512MB\t1GN4DYM\t[463-3042]\t3
Keyboard\tEntry Level, PS/2, No Hot Keys\tE\t[310-1609]\t4
Monitor\tNo Monitor Option\tN\t[320-3316]\t5
Graphic Cards\t128MB PCIe x16 ATI FireGL V3100, Dual VGA or DVI + VGA Capable\tATI128\t[320-3958]\t6
First Hard Drive\t80GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with DataBurst Cache without RAID\t80SAT\t[341-1138]\t8
Hard Drive Configuration\tC1- All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 1 to 2 drive total configuration\tSATA12\t[341-1113]\t9
Floppy Drive Options\t3.5 inch 1.44MB Floppy Drive\tFD\t[341-0497]\t10
Mouse\tDell USB 2-Button Mechanical Mouse with Scroll\tELD\t[310-5203]\t12
File System\tNTFS File System\tNTFS\t[420-3699]\t13
CD-ROM, DVD, and Read-Write Devices\t48X CD-ROM\tCD48\t[313-1304]\t16
Speakers\tNo Speaker option\tN\t[313-2663]\t18
Resource CD\tResources CD contains Diagnostics and Driver for Precision Systems\tRCD\t[310-5419]\t21
Hardware Support Services\t3 Year Basic Plan\tW3YOS\t[980-7000][980-7002]\t29
Onsite System Setup\tNo Onsite System Setup\tNOINSTL\t[900-9987]\t32
Quick Reference Guide\tQuick Reference Guide\tREF\t[310-5420]\t40
Energy Star\tEnergy Star\tES\t[310-4821]\t50
Mail- In Rebate\tNone\tNONE\t[463-1832]\t81
TOTAL: $2,108.00

so buy it. see if anyone cares.
post #95 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
But the X800 XT is still slower than the Nvidia 6800 Ultra... so whats the point of adding it?

Are you saying that the x800 xt won't occupy a PCI slot next to the AGP slot? or are you saying that the x800 xt uses pci? I'm confused by your statement.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant it uses agp but won't occupy the space of the pci next to it... if so... then yah that's cool and understandable why they are needed. But I'd still prefer that 6800... but I have an extra PCI slot to spare.


The 6800 Ultra DDL, The 6800GT and the ATI 980XT are all so large that you must commit 2 or your 3 available PCI-X slots to use it.

The X800 XT is thinner, thus requiring only one dedicated PCI-X slot
post #96 of 633
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lrrobinson
[B]I've been trying so hard to wait for the Rev. C PM's, but as someone noted before, the price/performance of the Wintel world can't be denied, I just configured this system at Dell for about $2100...

Danger irrobinson DANGER! :-)



http://www.alienware.com/product_det...de=SKU-DEFAULT ONLY $5000!

If only you didn't have to connect to the internet running XP Pro

tsk tsk.
post #97 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree




You would have to be seriously insane about gaming to get that beast.
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post #98 of 633
I agree with Anand with the update at the same time as Tiger, I'm guessing at the NAB.

3.0 GHz 970MP x2 so four processor cores, according to TS, Apple received samples back in Aug and should finish testing around end of Jan so March would be about the time they could put them in Macs. Also TS said they would start at 3.0 GHz so it will be 3.0 GHz with a bang.

As for the rest of the system:
at least PCI-e possible SLI
Reason 1: PowerMac 9,1 in the plist files since back in 10.3.5 and it's not the Mac Mini because it's G5 based, this would also be a big enough change in the system to require a new profile to be added
Reason 2: the heavy use of GPUs in Tiger and Motion so an update in graphics is really needed

400 GB HD for BTO possibly 500 GB if Seagate and Hitachi get their act together
Reason: They use the 400 GB in the Xserve RAID

RAM 1 GB for top model 512 MB on the low end
Reason: Powerbooks

I'm thinking that this would be June at the latest. I'm not all that concerned however as my CD doesn't expire until then.
post #99 of 633
I think it sound great, but I have time believing TS until SJ announces it. It sounds a a little like extraordinary BS to me. Mostly because I don't think the G5, 2 cores or not can reach 3.0 GHz until they switch over to a 65nm fab.
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post #100 of 633
I posted the link to the Alienware ALX to show the available options
that a company like Apple SHOULD be able to offer
in a professional class desktop workstation.
You may also note that availablility of this expansion seems to be more important than price.
All a matter of just making it possible.

PCI-Express is not some futuristic dream
and apparently dual 256MB nforce SLI cards are available.
Pro sound cards and plug in interface capabilities are simply a matter of budget.
Enterprise quality 10,000 RPM Hard Drives plug right in.
Beyond that you're getting into external storage, Xserve, XsAN and RAID.

The point is ...
none of these expandability options would require any major re-tooling
of the current G5 chassis.

It's more a matter of freeing the chains that bind us.

Even without dual core, the G5 PowerMac should be on even ground
with the competition in connectivity.

That's all I'm asking
post #101 of 633
If the 128MB ATI 9700 inside the latest Powerbook 17" can drive the 30" display, shouldn't the next round of Powermacs all be able to, and without having to spend an extra $400 to $500 ?
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post #102 of 633
What I keep reading here is another case of "spec whorism"

If you want the bigger "virtual penis" then hopped up Alienware systems are your ticket.

My thoughts:

10k SATA drives - I haven't seen one that performs so great that it's worth looking beyond the noise. I personally think that people may want to look at the newer SATA II drives with 16MB caches and NCQ. SCSI has almost been preferred because of it's efficient methods for ordering data writes(Tag Command Queing. SATA II is catching up with this. From some Anandtech reports it seems a natural for multitasking systems. OSX should benefit greatly.

SLI - Having two 256MB SLI cards sound sexy until you realize that the data in the frame buffers is duplicted. So instead of having a monster SLI 512MB system you have a wasted 256MB of expensive GDDR3 memory. You also have twice the powerload on your Power Supply. I'm wondering if ATI is going to hit the gates with a SLI competitor that works on one card. I think they could leap past Nvidia with such a solution. A 16x PCIe slot should be able to handle the full bandwidth of two GPUs. ATI has already outdone Nvidia with the XT800 card taking up only one slot. This battle is far from over.

Hard Drive Bays- Apple give us at least 3 bays. I'm not the biggest fan of a bunch of hard drive bays. But 3 bays allows me to AID 0 a couple of drives and keep my system stuff on a dedicated drive. I'd then add external SATA drives in an enclose like this



Attached to a Sonnet Tech Tempo-X card. Nice.

I'd like to see Apple move to Airport Extremer. 802.11n cards with some external antenna options.

Quote:
Sound I/O-

-
With a rapid converging industry, Apple would do well to move to HDMI 1.2 connections on the back of Powermacs. This would allow them to pump not only HD video but DVD-Audio and if rumors are true, SACD as well. Add Toslink digital I/O for backwards compatibility and you have everything taken care of with two ports(Note HDMI-DVI cable are readily available)

PCI Express - This is a given. I won't even waste my breath discussing it. Apple should move to a PCIe/PCI-X but I have no doubts that PCIe is on the next Powermacs. Despite the yammering from some PCIe hasn't been shipping all that long even on the PCI side what some 5 months or so in quantity? Apple's releases don't correspond to Intel chipset deliveries because they don't use Intel or Sis or any other chipset manf.

Shouldn't be more than a couple of months here and we'll know.
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post #103 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
I posted the link to the Alienware ALX to show the available options
that a company like Apple SHOULD be able to offer
in a professional class desktop workstation.
You may also note that availablility of this expansion seems to be more important than price.
All a matter of just making it possible.

PCI-Express is not some futuristic dream
and apparently dual 256MB nforce SLI cards are available.
Pro sound cards and plug in interface capabilities are simply a matter of budget.
Enterprise quality 10,000 RPM Hard Drives plug right in.
Beyond that you're getting into external storage, Xserve, XsAN and RAID.

The point is ...
none of these expandability options would require any major re-tooling
of the current G5 chassis.

It's more a matter of freeing the chains that bind us.

Even without dual core, the G5 PowerMac should be on even ground
with the competition in connectivity.

That's all I'm asking

Although, that is not the alienware workstation chassis. The workstation chassis looks nothing like that, but it (wsChassis) is the ultimate IMO. You can actually get dual 512mb cards for that. Once the Opteron nForce4 pro version is shipping we will be seeing some extremely impressive benchmarks out of the nForce4 Pro systems.

Hopefully by then Apple will have a new PowerMac, or ProMac out that is capable of the same.

Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison


If you want the bigger "virtual penis" then hopped up Alienware systems are your ticket.


If the PowerMac was capable of what the Alienware Pro-Workstations are I don't think you would be complaining,. or making those snide remarks.
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post #104 of 633
Quote:
f the PowerMac was capable of what the Alienware Pro-Workstations are I don't think you would be complaining,. or making those snide remarks.

My intentions are not to be snide but rather efficient. I've noticed a trend in X86 based computers. No one really differentiates themselves other than external casings or going with the "Bigger Better Deal"

Computers should be getting smaller, lighter and more efficient and they are. The fastest growing segment in computing is likely laptop computers.

SLI is a geeks wet dream but the masses don't need two power hungry nvidia cards in their computer. It's doubtful whether they need 4+ bays with the availability of half terabyte drives.

I continually see people trying to hold Apple's feet to the fire and I'm not seeing much justification other than "PCs have this". That's great and all but Macs, IMO, tend to be marketed towards people and their uses rather than tossing in a bunch of "stuff" and trying to wow someone with marketing. Sounds distinctly "PC" to me.

Of course the whining pissin' and moaning always intensifies before a refresh of the next model in question as if the person hadn't learned from the previous nth amount of refereshes.

The level of "Apple firsts" should speak for itself. We get new tech as fast if not faster than PCs.
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post #105 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
The level of "Apple firsts" should speak for itself. We get new tech as fast if not faster than PCs.

Perfectly stated. A lot of people don't realize that apple has started trends in computing: Obsolete floppy drives, USB ports (apple was first to move to 100% usb), Firewire ports (need I say more?), 1-1.25ghz bus, Dvd Burners (RAM and -RW), 128bit graphics cards, standard liquid cooling, PCI-X... these are the things off of the top of my head from the last 5 years. Who knows what else has been done since the dawn of the macintosh.. besides GUI OS and Mouse.

Point is, apple comes up with plenty of inovations. Just because they didn't drop everything when SLI came out and incorporated it doesn't mean they are any less of a company. They just released the powermac +- 3 months before SLI had been released. Why do we need 4 hard drive bays? You will soon be able to purchase 500gb SATA drives. If storage is that important then get an XServe Raid. Its going to keep the heat down in the computer anyways. Do you realize how much heat 4 harddrives put off in current PC cases??? It is not good for the internal components to have all this heat blown on them. It just stresses them out harder when it comes to cooling. Why do we need 10k rpm drives? There isn't a HUGE difference between 7200 and 10k.

Point is this stuff can be considered important, but not so important that apple needs to be the first ones to incorporate this stuff. Sit back and relax the new g5's will be here soon. Then you'll get your PCI-Express (OH BY THE WAY!!! Not 1 PC application / Game takes advantage of the bi-directional bus on PCI-E yet).

So chill out.

 

 

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post #106 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
(OH BY THE WAY!!! Not 1 PC application / Game takes advantage of the bi-directional bus on PCI-E yet).

So chill out.


With statements like that you must think that going another full year with AGP would be the best approach. Have it your way.
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post #107 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
1-1.25ghz bus

I find it funny that you use the high-frequency FSB as an example of innovation when it is inferior to the memory bus interface of the Opteron processor released approximately the same time as the G5.

Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
standard liquid cooling

Do you really think Apple would've moved to liquid cooling if it wasn't strictly necessary? They have proved that they wouldn't by not using it in any other models than the dual 2.5 GHz.

Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
128bit graphics cards

Really?
post #108 of 633
No reason for anyone here to get their panties in an uproar! :-)

Some people just want the tools of their trade to be the finest available.

I'm not asking so much for a few reasonable improvements before
I surrender to temptation.

More than likely, we're going to see a minor PB style revision
that improves the existing chassis configuration enough to move them
while Apple gears up for any major re-tooling.

I would like to see a completely new PowerMac that allows me to
expand freely on an industry specific basis.

I would be content with a new motherboard that was at least
capable of expanding to anyone's needs.

PCI-Express, SLI or CELL GPU capable.
Dual optical drive capable.
64 bit sound card capable <">
Dual Core and QuadraMac capable.

These things are all within reach, it's just a matter of how long we can stand to wait.

At least we have these forums to help us make a more informed decision.
post #109 of 633
Thread Starter 
hmmmph

on one hand we have folk who believe there will be a minor update soon, and on the other a bigger update with the release of tiger before June sometime.

yikes.

the idea of not being able to wait any longer and buy a current (old and outdated) powermac really sucks - tho its all that apple offer at the moment for what I need.

there has to be someone in the apple offices slaming their fists on desks keeping the pm developers (& IBM) on their toes.
post #110 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
With statements like that you must think that going another full year with AGP would be the best approach. Have it your way.

My point was they didn't need to jump on the bandwagon as soon as it came out since they released the powermacs 2-3 months before it was even available on x86 side.

Yes PCI-Express should be supported ASAP... the P on the end stands for Possible. There isn't any since of upgrading Powermacs just for graphics and that is it. It isn't a smart move.

PCI-Express is definitely much more welcome than AGP .... 16x vs. 8x for 1. You just missed my point is all. Definitely PCI-E is a must... but to jump on it immediately and put all this time and money into R&D for a simple bump in speed wouldn't prove worthwhile if everything else were to be the same.

 

 

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post #111 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by Zapchud
I find it funny that you use the high-frequency FSB as an example of innovation when it is inferior to the memory bus interface of the Opteron processor released approximately the same time as the G5.



Do you really think Apple would've moved to liquid cooling if it wasn't strictly necessary? They have proved that they wouldn't by not using it in any other models than the dual 2.5 GHz.



Really?

Yes the interfaces are different, but apple was the first to release a bus that fast... BTW Opterons that used the on chip mem interfaces didn't start shipping until AFTER the g5s. The fact that the interface is beat by something else doesn't mean that apple didn't beat everyone to a faster bus speed.

The reason apple didn't stick liquid cooling into all of the machines is because they didn't have enough coolers. It was a brand new piece of hardware, guarantee its in all machines next rev.

Yes really... ATI 128 bit cards were first released on Apples. No other 128 bit card existed then. This was a HUGE deal... Remember when apple and ATI's relationship went down the drain? It was from ati pre-announcing the g3s that would come with 128bit ATI cards.

 

 

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post #112 of 633
Does anyone know what it would take to update the motherboards to utilize PCI-Express?

Pins, connectors, bus, etc?
Would this be something major or minor to accomplish?

Just curious
post #113 of 633
Interesting thoughts quamb. It brings me to ask myself what does Steve Jobs think the role of the PowerMac is, and what does he, and Apple see as it's role in computing in the future? ( for home, business, professional, industrial, scientific)
Is it gong to regain the mantle it once held that made many become Mac users? Will it subdivide into two versions (PowerMac, ProMac), or will it teeter at levels comparatively performance wise where it has settled to now that the G4 fiasco is in our pasts, and is back to a level of mediocrity among PC's?
Time will tell, but these are questions that weigh heavily on my mind.
Are all the Mac's going to wind up being cute, and fluffy little objects soon? I really hope not, but who really knows. Some people in here seem to think it's all about "being in with the cube, or mini life". Either "your in", or "your out". If it came to that I'd rather be out. But, I hope Apple is not as blinded as some of the users in here by trendy little packaging for users who do not require more than the basics in their computing life. I personally think the PowerMac should remain, (actually grow) bigger - because there are still those who use their computers for much more than the "cute, and fluffy" computer user, and there are still many who the PowerMac has not grown to accommodate yet. And right when it was just starting to look like it had a lot more potential than it ever had before too.
Currently the PowerMac G5 is in a state of stagnancy. Will the next PowerMac revision deal an innovative ferocious performance blow to the watchful eyes of the computing world, and start a frenzy, or will it deal another blow to the neglected performance hungry PowerMac user? Either way - someone is going to get hurt. Someone always does.
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post #114 of 633
Thread Starter 
agreed.

tho I guess alot this thread is just us apple nerds freaking out a little. in reality, we'll eventually get the new powermac, that'll be great (for 90% of us) and we'll shutup until that line becomes 7+ months old.

it seemed apple was becoming a very pro-company (with Final Cut becoming moreso an industry standard & the release of Logic) - and all the prod companies i've worked/been at predominately use mac hardware.

But right now, in the last 4 months or so, Apple has been VERY focused on it's 'fluffy' consumer, ipod-centric products. Guessing us pro-users are going to be back in the game just around the corner.. with all the r&d that Apple must spend, you'd hope that Apple is far ahead of our wishlists.
post #115 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Some people in here seem to think it's all about "being in with the cube, or mini life".

Well, that speaks to some people.

What Apple does with the eMac and iMac and Mac mini doesn't really touch on what they do with the PowerMac. They've got the engineers to focus on multiple hardware projects. I do think it's good that they feel fiscally healthy enough to start taking bold steps into new territory, but none of that means that the PowerMac is being neglected or forgotten.

Don't forget, it just got the 6800U and the 30" Cinema Display, and Apple's working hard to get into markets that absolutely require that kind of power.

I don't doubt that they've stumbled. It's obvious now that the 970 didn't quite do what either IBM or Apple hoped it would do. So they continue to work on the problem&mdash;in secret of course, because this is Apple&mdash;and they'll release something when they have it.

We have hints that a glimpse into the possible near future will be unveiled at the ISSCC this coming week. Then we'll have a better idea of what IBM's been up to, and then we can maybe get a better sense of where Apple's going.

Remember, the Power5 rolled out last summer, and one of its explicit design goals was to be available in PowerPC form shortly afterward...
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post #116 of 633
I'm all for the highly innovative, ferocious performance blow with a merciless assult on technology causing utter chaos and complete computer world frenzy!
post #117 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph


Remember, the Power5 rolled out last summer, and one of its explicit design goals was to be available in PowerPC form shortly afterward...

Just one of the reasons why many expect to see a dual core G5 in the next revision. I'd rather they improved the existing tower, and/or processors before they do. If they did both it would be another story entirely.
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post #118 of 633
I was just reading about CELL and came away with the impression that
the G5 processor would still be used as the primary controller CPU.

So it appears that Apple might use CELL as a secondary GPU in some
configuration.

This idea then made me wonder if a dual processor G5 would then
have 2 primary CPU's controlling each of two 8 core GPU CELLS???

In effect giving us a G18

I clearly need more coffee before I contemplate this any further.

post #119 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree


In effect giving us a G18





You really did fall out of that tree didn'tch'a.

Yesterdays cell processor was just a prototype though. Sony will have them in abundance, and in PS3's way before Apple starts using them, and that should still take quite a while. Plus - Chances are Apple wouldn't use the same one anyway.
In the nearest possible future the closest thing even resembling cell technology is most likely to be dual processing cored PowerPC CPU's.

Questions regarding the differences in Multi cored CPU's, and Cell. In the Cell processors there is a dual threaded PowerPC core that controls the other eight single threaded cell cores. The P5(Power5) is a two-core/four-thread design which to me seems the more aggressive approach, and is already available. Of the two in the near future The Dual core PowerPC everyone is hoping to see soon should still be better suited for use in Macs than the prototype cell processor seen yesterday. Especially if the PowerPC version of the dual core P5 sticks with the two-core/four-thread design.
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post #120 of 633
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Interesting thoughts quamb. It brings me to ask myself what does Steve Jobs think the role of the PowerMac is, and what does he, and Apple see as it's role in computing in the future? .... "where it has settled to now that the G4 fiasco is in our pasts, and is back to a level of mediocrity among PC's?" Currently the PowerMac G5 is in a state of stagnancy.

Hmmm. harsh words, onlooker. Harsh words indeed.

I agree that the state of the PowerMac is very much up to Steve Jobs and how he wants to define it. But again, what is a POWERUSER ?

What kind of applications does a POWERUSER use ?

Except fueling Quartz Express, how would a POWERUSER spend the power of the latest and greatest videocards ? ( except the media business [obviously ])

Now, 18 months since the 64bit G5 were introduced at wwdc, where are the 64bits applications ? Where are the applications that shows the obvious difference between 32bit and 64bit ? (if there is any for mid-pro users)


I want more power ! I have a G4 Cube with a 450 MHz cpu. Making an iDVD takes 10-14 hours in mp4-to-mp2 decoding. (10 to 14 hours !!!!).

But I also use Mathematica and the difference in speed between ver4 and ver5 was not due to hardware. But to coding. In the 1970´s , american car-manufactors where caught with their pants down. Building expensive cars that had an gas-consumation straight out of hell lost to cheaper and more ecconomic cars developed and produced in asia.

End of my rambling, it seems like the hardware is ahead of the software. Let it catch up first, then we can discuss the PowerMacs,

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