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There are no weapons!

post #1 of 201
Thread Starter 
After two years, we accept that there are no WMDs in Iraq and the killing rages on. Do more than a handfull of people care? America is so confused.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4169107.stm
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post #2 of 201
After two years, and after Bush has been re-elected US admit there is no weapons.

But I am nearly sure, that some people here will continue to claim the contrary.
post #3 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Do more than a handfull of people care?

They never did - it wasn't about that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 201
Thread Starter 
It was never about that to those in power, but it was to a lot of Americans and that group of Americans should care today.
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post #5 of 201
Is this the same Common Man? Maybe he is more caring and sensitive for 2005! Hey, welcome to the team cowboy.

So we couldn't even find the weapons of mass destruction that Rumsfeld and Bush senior gave him.

So, since we knew there weren't weapons, and Cheney's office stovepiped intel, and more and more proof is coming out, wouldn't this be reasonable grounds for impeachment and jailing of Bush and other staff as war criminals? Oh wait, we're liberating Iraq. One bodybag at a time. What is the Iraq civilian death toll? Last time I checked it was over 100,000. Good thing we are getting rid of a brutal dictator who tortures his people, kills civilians, has mass graves, and just there to make money off the backs of the poor and oppressed from oil.

I think we can all agree, preemptive action, in this situation, regarding Iraq, was not the right policy. All blustering about "permission slips from the UN" was jingoist propaganda. American sheep bought it, just like the Spanish-American war. Hey, don't forget the )*@#%@)ing "paid for by Bush-Cheney 2004" Yellow Journalism, featuring Armstrong Williams and friends.

If Bush believes his "doctrine" (can he spell that?) is "preemptive action in the war on terrorism" then what is he doing about North Korea? Russia? Ukraine? The ENTIRE continent of Africa? Nothing. Sudan doesn't have oil.
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post #6 of 201
A good percentage of the population believed that there were no biological, chemical or nuclear weapons in Iraq in 2003 and 2004. Heck, Iraq was harmless even if it had biological, chemical or nuclear weapons. The other half of the USA doesn't care that there aren't any weapons because GWB is President.

The only remaining question is whether this other half will penalize GWB and his allies. Well, Common Man, are you up for it? It is a crime worthy of impeachment. How about voting for Democrats in 2006?
post #7 of 201
Hey Common Man, this makes two or three posts that put us in total agreement (you figured death squads would be counterproductive, you have misgivings about using paid shills, and the topic at hand).

More sensitive and caring for '05, cool, but a complete 180? Tell the truth now, did ghosts come to you on Christmas eve and show you terrible things?

(For what it's worth I've resolved to be less, ahem.....emphatic....on these boards myself).
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #8 of 201
Well, I suppose that now Mr George Bush will present his excuses for having destroyed their country to the Iraqi people, right ?
Like a big boy, a serious, professional and responsible man... I'm sure he will.
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post #9 of 201
( Oh... and to the French; by the way... )
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post #10 of 201
I knew he would turn. The blue theme of this site will turn everybody, except the most fanatic, liberal sooner or later.
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post #11 of 201
You know, I do find the thought of impeaching bush and then letting face an international war crime tribunal somewhat satisfying. Not too likely to happen, sadly.
post #12 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
After two years, we accept that there are no WMDs in Iraq and the killing rages on. Do more than a handfull of people care? America is so confused.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4169107.stm

Yeah . . . alot of people fuucking care !!! . . . and cared before hand . . . . but they were called 'traitors'!!!

This is just the flecks on the icing that has been on the cake for a long time . . . . Bush lied through his teeth and force fed it to us and made bad excuses . . . and on and on and on . .

but gee, he 'clears brush' drives an old Ford Pick-up and has Schwarzy talk at his convention so he must be allright
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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #13 of 201
Can we please now all agree that UN sanctions and the actions of the US (with aid from Britain) under Clinton killed the ability of Saddam's Iraq to procure, produce, or use WMDs of any kind?

In other words, the proscribed 'internationalist' solution to that mid-east problem (while the bane of wack-job college student protesters and the hawks on the other side) actually worked?

Amazing.
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #14 of 201
Unfortunately, the rehtoric from the World Community at large -- even months before the invasion -- was not as dismissive as this Monday-morning quarterbacking.

There are TONS of quotes from Clinton, Congress, bla bla bla. into the late 90's (and even later in some cases) as to how bad and dangerous SH was with his WMD program......


oh wait, Koffi's Oil-for-food cash cow........nevermind.

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #15 of 201
Yawn! Please read the posts of 2003 when this whole thing started. A lot of us were saying that WMD was a lie. Too little too late, Common man. The fun is just getting started. You can only buckle up for the ride.
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post #16 of 201
Where is Naples X ?
post #17 of 201
Quote:
After two years, we accept that there are no WMDs in Iraq and the killing rages on. Do more than a handfull of people care?

It does provide a good illustration of why it is not safe to lock people up on the basis of intelligence alone.
post #18 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Where is Naples X ?

I've heard rumours that he was smuggled into Syria and Iran, and parts of him remain hidden in secret underground bunkers (built by Europeans), shortly before this news story broke.
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post #19 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
I've heard rumours that he was smuggled into Syria and Iran, and parts of him remain hidden in secret underground bunkers (built by Europeans), shortly before this news story broke.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #20 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
I've heard rumours that he was smuggled into Syria and Iran, and parts of him remain hidden in secret underground bunkers (built by Europeans), shortly before this news story broke.

post #21 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Yeah . . . alot of people fuucking care !!! . . . and cared before hand . . . . but they were called 'traitors'!!!

This is just the flecks on the icing that has been on the cake for a long time . . . . Bush lied through his teeth and force fed it to us and made bad excuses . . . and on and on and on . .

but gee, he 'clears brush' drives an old Ford Pick-up and has Schwarzy talk at his convention so he must be allright


That's pretty much it. Bush lied. There are no weapons and weren't before the war. Probably for a few years now. Bush had to have known the evidence was flimsy at best since the inspectors were saying " no weapons ". But he went with it anyway because it served his agenda.

Now there are Bush supporters out there that would have us sweep it all under the rug.

A very real low point in american history.
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post #22 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
That's pretty much it. Bush lied. There are no weapons and weren't before the war. Probably for a few years now. Bush had to have known the evidence was flimsy at best since the inspectors were saying " no weapons ". But he went with it anyway because it served his agenda.

Now there are Bush supporters out there that would have us sweep it all under the rug.

A very real low point in american history.

So what are we going to do ?

We've been repeatedly lied to in the most cynical fashion by our elected leaders.

How are we going to hold them accountable ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #23 of 201
Will someone PLEASE EXPLAIN all the pre-invasion, worldwide, WMD rehotoric to the contrary?

Unless you wish to attribute this to the lucrative OFF deal that many were pigging out on....sending wave after wave of inspectors....speech after speech on how dangerous Saddam was.....I'd definitly buy that explanation, it actually makes sense.

....anyone?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #24 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Will someone PLEASE EXPLAIN all the pre-invasion, worldwide, WMD rehotoric to the contrary?

Unless you wish to attribute this to the lucrative OFF deal that many were pigging out on....sending wave after wave of inspectors....speech after speech on how dangerous Saddam was.....I'd definitly buy that explanation, it actually makes sense.

....anyone?

My god - it's been explained a thousand times while it was happening and a thousand times since.

Ain't no different now and if you need it spelled out now then it's not me that's going to do it.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #25 of 201
So the inspectors were doing what, presumably? Looking for WMD that "everyone" knew wasn't there?

That can't be true.

What CAN be true is that the inspectors were window dressing to keep the OFF program in place and the goodies flowing for all concerned.

So Bush comes in, takies an extremely risky bet that putting a big 'democratic' wedg[i]e in the ME can push things his way -- but in the process ruins everyone's fun.

Obstensibly, 'working with the UN' on this would basically mean doing the same thing, but cutting in the various parties on their fair share of the loot.

Why didn't I see this before?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #26 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
So the inspectors were doing what, presumably? Looking for WMD that "everyone" knew wasn't there?

That can't be true.

Why ?

Quote:
----snip process of regaining equilibriium-------

Why didn't I see this before?

Because it is a rationalisation and you had not been forced to resort to it before due to being faced with the inescapable truth as you are now.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #27 of 201
I am still waiting for the planted WMD to show up. Many people on this bord insisted Bush and co. would plant WMD before the elections. He had to to ensure his re-election I think the theme went. Oh, and they would announce they had captured Osama before November, even though they had caught him a year previous.

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post #28 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
I am still waiting for the planted WMD to show up. Many people on this bord insisted Bush and co. would plant WMD before the elections. He had to to ensure his re-election I think the theme went. Oh, and they would announce they had captured Osama before November, even though they had caught him a year previous.

Maybe they did plant them and they got stolen - they certainly managed to lose 50 tons of explosives from under lock and key.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #29 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Maybe they did plant them and they got stolen - they certainly managed to lose 50 tons of explosives from under lock and key.



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post #30 of 201
Man, no weapons? Sure, there are weapons! Iraq is full of AK-47's! Those are made by commies! Lets bomb the communists again! Lets "smoke 'em out" my fellow citizens! They poses WMD's - Weapons of Mass Dickheads!
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post #31 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Man, no weapons? Sure, there are weapons! Iraq is full of AK-47's! Those are made by commies! Lets bomb the communists again! Lets "smoke 'em out" my fellow citizens! They poses WMD's - Weapons of Mass Dickheads!

evildoers
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #32 of 201
This OFF thing is an idiot red herring . . . if you look closely the very comittees most responsible for oversight were HEADED by very prominent Americans who are now doing very 'important' work for BushCo in Iraq

Why didn't they say anything"
And what about Halliburton's subsidiaries that are absolutely linked to OFF?!?!

Never a mention from those nutter-sites that DMZ et-al feed off of that pretend that this little scandal somehow justifies or excuses a catastrophic war based on a Fool's Vision of Empire!!




. . . oh yeah, not to mention how it seems to justify near hysterical biggotted anti-French Racism on FOX news . . . despite the American involvement and the International scale scandal

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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #33 of 201
Thread Starter 
Pfflam, I have to disagree wiht you that a lot of people care. If there was significant caring about this, the Gov would be held accountable. They will not be.
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post #34 of 201
Maybe I'm not communicating clearly here.

1. Everyone on this forum claims -- essentially -- that "everyone" "knew" that there were NO WMD in Iraq.

2. We know that the UN had inspectors in Iraq until the very end.

3. I can't make 1. and 2. work together -- unless the inspections were a sham.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #35 of 201
I think the best thing to be done at this point is to very clearly link what Bush is doing right now in re Social Security with what he did with WOMD, cause they're working off the same template.

He's pushing for a sense of "crisis" while using language that can provide cover if he gets called out. He's cooking the books so he can claim that unless we act now all hell will break loose, and framing the debate as being between his "solution" and people who would "do nothing".

He's got his people on message, and it's all a lie. Again. This time, there's a chance to hang the bastard on his bullshit before it does irreparable harm, and the place to start is to just hammer away at the similarities between the fake WOMD and what it has cost us, and the fake "crisis" in Social Security and what it will cost us.
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post #36 of 201
Half empty or half full?

Quote:
1. Everyone on this forum claims -- essentially -- that "everyone" "knew" that there were NO WMD in Iraq

No Most people here claim that when "The Administration" said they "knew" there were WMD in Iraq they knew they were lying.

Tha Winnar is the one who can prove that the other party said they were certain (as in prove) and can make it probable they talked in spite of knowledge to the contrary. Oops, Your team lost.

I wasn´t certain Saddam didn´t have WMDs but I didn´t present mock ups of chemical weapon destruction plants to the UNSC and claimed they had eliminated all Saddams weapons.
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post #37 of 201
And, DMZ, as you may recall, the inspectors were charged with establishing if Saddam had, in fact, restarted his WOMD programs. They were well on their way to establishing that he had not, in fact, done so.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #38 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
And, DMZ, as you may recall, the inspectors were charged with establishing if Saddam had, in fact, restarted his WOMD programs. They were well on their way to establishing that he had not, in fact, done so.


Maybe, but that's still hindsight.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #39 of 201
The thing that makes great presidents great is that what they do is right in hindsight. Bush is not a great president.
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post #40 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
So the inspectors were doing what, presumably? Looking for WMD that "everyone" knew wasn't there?

That can't be true.

What CAN be true is that the inspectors were window dressing to keep the OFF program in place and the goodies flowing for all concerned.

So Bush comes in, takies an extremely risky bet that putting a big 'democratic' wedg[i]e in the ME can push things his way -- but in the process ruins everyone's fun.

Obstensibly, 'working with the UN' on this would basically mean doing the same thing, but cutting in the various parties on their fair share of the loot.

Why didn't I see this before?

The inspectors before the war were saying there wasn't anything there.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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