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There are no weapons! - Page 2

post #41 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Maybe I'm not communicating clearly here.

1. Everyone on this forum claims -- essentially -- that "everyone" "knew" that there were NO WMD in Iraq.

2. We know that the UN had inspectors in Iraq until the very end.

3. I can't make 1. and 2. work together -- unless the inspections were a sham.

Anyone with a lick of sense knew. Even if they had existed there was never any threat to us as was implied. When I was posting against the war I had one Bush supporter say " Well what are you going to do when the mushrooms start sprouting in your backyard? ".


Saddam's missles couldn't travel more than about 600 miles.

Anyway that's what most of the dunderheaded Bush supporters were thinking at the time.

Well that and how much the price of gas would drop after the war.

God where's Nappy and SDW after this turn of events? They must be in deep depression.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #42 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Pfflam, I have to disagree wiht you that a lot of people care. If there was significant caring about this, the Gov would be held accountable. They will not be.

Just think of it as another prize in the Bush pinata. If it's full enough someone should start swinging soon.

The headline on my local paper says " The Democrats Want To Know Why? ".
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #43 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Anyone with a lick of sense knew.


Then why were there still inspectors in Iraq? Especially if they "knew" Iraq didn't have WMD.

You have two choices, status quo for money, or the UN was duped.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #44 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Then why were there still inspectors in Iraq? Especially if they "knew" Iraq didn't have WMD.

You have two choices, status quo for money, or the UN was duped.

To prevent a war.
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #45 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Then why were there still inspectors in Iraq? Especially if they "knew" Iraq didn't have WMD.

You have two choices, status quo for money, or the UN was duped.

They had to prove it. Anyone with a lick of sense already knew.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #46 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Maybe, but that's still hindsight.

Well it wouln't have been had the inspectors been allowed to do their job . . .

But Bush had a 'Vision' to fullfill . . .. an Empire to create . . . he was staring in his own grand movie, Blowing giant billows of steam while hiding behind a curtain of 'realpolitik' and grab-what-you-can . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #47 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
They had to prove it. Anyone with a lick of sense already knew.

Then the UN could have said so when the heat was on -- but they didn't.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #48 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Then the UN could have said so when the heat was on -- but they didn't.

They did. Its just that Fox News didn't broadcast what others said. They showed you what the all-mighty war-mongerer said, but not what others did.

When 3 or more people start telling you that you're drunk, you better start using parking meters as walking sticks.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #49 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Well it wouln't have been had the inspectors been allowed to do their job . . .

But Bush had a 'Vision' to fullfill . . .. an Empire to create . . . he was staring in his own grand movie, Blowing giant billows of steam while hiding behind a curtain of 'realpolitik' and grab-what-you-can . . .


pfflam, have I told you 'you're crazy" yet today? It would have been easy for the UN to say then what you're saying now.

As for the inspectors not being allowed to do their jobs, you may be right -- there was too much money (and I don't point fingers to a specific group of countries that were promised specific Oil Fields to develop once OFF was over) involved to come to a timely conclusion.

Also, here is were you guys become unbelievable:

You posit that GWB is the devil who wanted oil and went to war to get oil, etc., etc., etc. Ah ha!! Iraq has oil! GWB wanted the oil -- hey, Mike Moore did a fast-and-slick "documentary" that proved it!

BUT
(and there's always a but, see Mr. Wilde's quote on my sig.)

When close a relative of the Sec Gen of the UN is found to be DIRTY AS HELL with OFF money, you turn your heads. Never happened. No connection.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #50 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
They did. Its just that Fox News didn't broadcast what others said. They showed you what the all-mighty war-mongerer said, but not what others did.

When 3 or more people start telling you that you're drunk, you better start using parking meters as walking sticks.


Then it should be easy enough to go to the UN's website and find the appropriate press releases from that time period.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #51 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Then it should be easy enough to go to the UN's website and find the appropriate press releases from that time period.

Press releases don't have entire discussions in the General Assembly and the UN SC because it would take a million words to explain it entirely.

Do you think Bush went there, lied his ass off, and others just said "well, no." ?

If you do, then I rest my case.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #52 of 201
OFF is a scandal, and it will be taken care of, perps will be dealt with . . . perhaps more scrutiny should also be placed on the HEAD of the overcite comittee . . . who was that Negroponte? IIRC

But the sources that you are fond of see it through tunnel vision: they see it through a lens fashioned in very large part out of BushCo's anti-UN agenda: they have been discrediting EVERYTHING UN since moment one . . . it is a given among crypto-survivalist-Conservatives that the UN is the Anti-Christ . . . if not literally then figuratively . . .

So naturally, when they, and, ghasp, the French have very serious reservations about invading a country . . . well . . . how convinient! there is a scandal (right under Negroponte's nose?!) that can then be used as an excuse to discount anything that they have to say . . . gee . . . how sweet

The reason that all of the OFF shiite that you believe is not sticking doesn't stick is because what your sources say it is, ISN'T TRUE . . . not in the same scale that all of you are claiming.

It will shake out, and should . . . but has nothing to do with the catastrophe that has been Bush and the big plan . . . the Pax Americana plan


. . which, BTW, is not simply about 'grabbing oil' . . . it is about creating a base in the ME . . . it is also about a Vision of seeing our presence there spreading Democracy like manure on a lawn . . . that part he didn't lie about . . . but if anyone looked at it clearly, they would have seen that that sort of insane Ideology has been the impetus for global catastrophes in the past . . . it usually called Invasion and aggression . . . the Germans called it blitzkrieg
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #53 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
OFF is a scandal, and it will be taken care of, perps will be dealt with . . . perhaps more scrutiny should also be placed on the......French have very serious reservations about.....blitzkrieg


Intresting post.

The older I get, the more I'm loosing the moralistic-epiphany-of-humanity view of the UN that I had shoved down my throat in Social Studies class in 1975. The UN is just another bureacracy, just another political organization, shot through with lifers, and political operators. I think it has served it's purpose, times change. Wilson has been dead for some time.

Quick example: While Sudan is butchering, and China, Canada and others get their hands dirty -- where's the UN? More people from Southern Sudan and the Nuba Mountains have been murdered than all the victims in Kosovo, Bosnia and Rwanda combined.

oops, I keep forgeting that GWB bush is the great Satan, not the fanatics of the relgion with the highest body count.

Man's problem is not political, it's moral.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #54 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
[B]Intresting post.

The older I get, the more I'm loosing the moralistic-epiphany-of-humanity view of the UN that I had shoved down my throat in Social Studies class in 1975.

But you still retain the moralistic-epiphany-of-humanity view of the Bush admin. Even though, you know they lied to you, to me, and to everyone repeatedly. Interesting.



Quote:
The UN is just another bureacracy, just another political organization, shot through with lifers, and political operators. I think it has served it's purpose, times change. Wilson has been dead for some time.

Well, getting 192 nations to cooperate and work in perfect harmony is quite a task. And though it has shortcomings and its own faults, the role of the UN is much deeper than that of passing Security Council Resolutions and it serves as at least a starting point of authority in major international disputes and problems.

Together with UN come very important agencies that help and serve to millions of people around the world. UNDP, UNESCO, UNICEF, they're all UN agencies that help communities in danger, preserve cultural heritage, help develop poor economies and so on.

The UN however, is not the only bureacracy in the world. The US administration is not only a bureacracy, but a very hypoocritical one at that, and one that lies as if it were normal. So we should always take politics and politicians with a grain of salt.

Quote:
Quick example: While Sudan is butchering, and China, Canada and others get their hands dirty -- where's the UN? More people from Southern Sudan and the Nuba Mountains have been murdered than all the victims in Kosovo, Bosnia and Rwanda combined.


True, true, but where's the US in the UN? The US is still a big player in the UN, so, where is it?

Quote:
oops, I keep forgeting that GWB bush is the great Satan, not the fanatics of the relgion with the highest body count.


Satans, religions... they hardly fit this discussion.

Quote:
Man's problem is not political, it's moral.

So you say. I disagree.
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post #55 of 201
(to DMZ)

Most of the UN failings that you point to are due to the largest member leaning heavily in the direction of 'Do nothing' . . . China for example . . . we may be suffering a trade deficit with China but Wallmart would collapse without it . . . and the US economy, some think, would follow suit.

It is "not just another bureacracy" it is the mediator of international relations . . . it is the only official organ for such a purpose . . . not an easy task . . . expecting miracles is idiocy, but trying to disregard the UN is also idiocy.

And worst is to excuse an invasion based on lies, - - an invasion, plans for which were laid out for all to see in 1996 (Pax Americana), that was based on near utopian fantasy of benevolent Empire, to excuse such LIES because some companies related to the UN made about 150 million (maybe) through a program (overseen by a major American figure . . . never mind him BTW, his excuse: 'we were too worried about weapons to look at graft") is swolloing the red-herring thrown in your


but the point is . . . our 'president' brought our country to war, INVADED another country, based on lies, that many said were lies at the time
--perhaps the beginning of the war was before you came here or became politically aware . . . but if you were here-abouts or cared a whiff then you would have seen right through the mallarky!!

. . . and also, this war was not just, immoral and down-right UnAmerican . . . it was also a complete failure in every respect with regards to what came after the WMD excuse . . . all the hoopla about security, then liberation . . . and rooting out Al Queda . . . well now they're there . . . mre than ever . . .

. . . impeachment is almost too good . . . Jail is more like it!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #56 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Intresting post.

The older I get, the more I'm loosing the moralistic-epiphany-of-humanity view of the UN that I had shoved down my throat in Social Studies class in 1975. The UN is just another bureaucracy, just another political organization, shot through with lifers, and political operators. I think it has served it's purpose, times change. Wilson has been dead for some time.

Quick example: While Sudan is butchering, and China, Canada and others get their hands dirty -- where's the UN? More people from Southern Sudan and the Nuba Mountains have been murdered than all the victims in Kosovo, Bosnia and Rwanda combined.

oops, I keep forgetting that GWB bush is the great Satan, not the fanatics of the religion with the highest body count.

Man's problem is not political, it's moral.

Two things:

The Great Satan doesn't mean what you probably think it means -- and there are Christians guilty of genocide in Sudan as well.

And: If it weren't for international organizations like the UN and the modern day NATO, said massacres would probably have gone unnoticed like they did before WWII and would have afterwards... Imperfect, yes, bureaucratic, yes, rife with politics and politicians funneling group funds to local endeavors, yes, ineffective, yes, a lot of meaningless actions by committee, yes, achingly slow responses to problems that are best fixed now, yes... the thing is, I have never heard you demand the dissolution of Congress...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #57 of 201
hmmmm......It's late I think I'll just have a beer.


We're going through some old files.......found an old article on student literary srewups apparently Donatello's interest in the female nude that made him the father of the renaissance.


And I guess the English navy defeated the Spanish Armadillo, so go figure.

Oh, and, achilles mother's dipped him in the river Stynx until he became intollerable.

and don't forget that Sir Francis Drake circumcised the world with 100 foot clipper.


nighty night

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #58 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Maybe, but that's still hindsight.

Except that the baselessness of the accusations by the Bush administration was documented with abundant evidence before the the war. So, no, it was not hindsight. Deal with it and stop trying to rewrite history.
post #59 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Then it should be easy enough to go to the UN's website and find the appropriate press releases from that time period.

http://middleeastreference.org.uk/iraqweapons.html

There was more than enough information, dmz. And that right there is just a drop in the bucket compared to other CITINT projects that revealed the truth long before the war. And it wasn't just vague 'no wmd' truth, we had extremely detailed information about the real nature of Iraqi WMD programs. So detailed, in fact, that the only argument that the admin could come up with was that since all the evidence pointed in the other direction it must be wrong. It was a load of shit then and it's a load of shit now.
post #60 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Then the UN could have said so when the heat was on -- but they didn't.

Uh, if you'll recall the UN didn't want Bush to go to war. The evidence wasn't conclusive and their inspectors at the time were saying there wasn't anything. I think that was enough. Like we've said before you'd like to think the president was telling the truth.

A lot of of gullible people didn't want to believe he'd stretch the truth ( lie ) like this.

Sorry a lot of people knew. The UN didn't want to go to war because everything they had at the time was saying " no " but the president had evidence ( he couldn't reveal the sources at the time ) that Saddam was a threat.

Got it?
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #61 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
After two years, and after Bush has been re-elected US admit there is no weapons.

But I am nearly sure, that some people here will continue to claim the contrary.

Funny how this stuff allways comes out after the elections isnt it. The party in power gets to control the release of info when it sees fit. Our own govt is full of spin. Im still waiting for their next version of what happened in Roswell back in 47 you know. Govt have given us 3 versions so far. Any reason 49% voted the otherway? we are getting the shaft from both partys period.
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post #62 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Except that the baselessness of the accusations by the Bush administration was documented with abundant evidence before the the war.


I don't recall that discussion at the UN -- honestly -- someone find me where the UN leadership said so, and that the inspectors where there for some other reason than to find WMD.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #63 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I don't recall that discussion at the UN -- honestly -- someone find me where the UN leadership said so, and that the inspectors where there for some other reason than to find WMD.

This isn't about the weapons, the UN or anything else other than the last desperate struggles of a Bush fanboy to find some reason....any reason.....to make it all go away.

It's not going to. It's over. You were lied to. They treated you like a jerk and they weren't who they promised to be.

You're high and dry. And you're in the same deep doo-doo as the rest of us and the planet.

Deal with it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #64 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Uh, if you'll recall the UN didn't want Bush to go to war. The evidence wasn't conclusive and their inspectors at the time were saying there wasn't anything. I think that was enough. Like we've said before you'd like to think the president was telling the truth.

A lot of of gullible people didn't want to believe he'd stretch the truth ( lie ) like this.

Sorry a lot of people knew. The UN didn't want to go to war because everything they had at the time was saying " no " but the president had evidence ( he couldn't reveal the sources at the time ) that Saddam was a threat.

Got it?


One more time for those in the back, either the inspectors were needed or the whole thing was satus quo B.S. -- with clear indications of enough money (and I don't care if SH was complicit in this game either) greasing enough palms to keep "sanctions" going indefinitly. The son of the SG of the UN was dirty and no one here will even entertain a connection.

Unbeleivable.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #65 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
One more time for those in the back, either the inspectors were needed or the whole thing was satus quo B.S. -- with clear indications of enough money (and I don't care if SH was complicit in this game either) greasing enough palms to keep "sanctions" going indefinitly. The son of the SG of the UN was dirty and no one here will even entertain a connection.

Unbeleivable.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #66 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
(to DMZ)

Most of the UN failings that you point to are due to the largest member leaning heavily in the direction of 'Do nothing' . . . China for example . . . we may be suffering a trade deficit with China but Wallmart would collapse without it . . . and the US economy, some think, would follow suit.

It is "not just another bureacracy" it is the mediator of international relations . . . it is the only official organ for such a purpose . . . not an easy task . . . expecting miracles is idiocy, but trying to disregard the UN is also idiocy.

And worst is to excuse an invasion based on lies, - - an invasion, plans for which were laid out for all to see in 1996 (Pax Americana), that was based on near utopian fantasy of benevolent Empire, to excuse such LIES because some companies related to the UN made about 150 million (maybe) through a program (overseen by a major American figure . . . never mind him BTW, his excuse: 'we were too worried about weapons to look at graft") is swolloing the red-herring thrown in your


but the point is . . . our 'president' brought our country to war, INVADED another country, based on lies, that many said were lies at the time
--perhaps the beginning of the war was before you came here or became politically aware . . . but if you were here-abouts or cared a whiff then you would have seen right through the mallarky!!

. . . and also, this war was not just, immoral and down-right UnAmerican . . . it was also a complete failure in every respect with regards to what came after the WMD excuse . . . all the hoopla about security, then liberation . . . and rooting out Al Queda . . . well now they're there . . . mre than ever . . .

. . . impeachment is almost too good . . . Jail is more like it!!


On the UN thing, I think it's important to keep in mind that it's not about the body count, it's about politics. Sudan is proof positive. Blood for Oil when it's China and Canada is different than Iraq. When the Muslims were in trouble in the Balkans they were Johnny-on-the-spot. Sudan? I doesn't even get steady rotation in Kofi's talking points.

On the mediating disputes, I thinkg that "grown-up countries" go much further and farther with trade agreements, etc. Especially when the UN introduces outside parties that may or may not have any business in the relaitons between two nations.

Anyway, some interesting points, I running late.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #67 of 201
When 'Muslims were in trouble in the Balkans' we let them stay in trouble for what, three or four years and a large number of acts of genocide in Bosnia !! . . . . were you paying any attention!?!?!?!
or were you too young?

The US dragged its feet and therefor, the UN dragged its feet . . . . pressure was put on the existing UN troops to remain nuetral and not engage while whole villages were getting wiped out RIGHT AROUND them!!!!

It finally took Bill Clinton to be courageous and say that this would not happen again in Kosovo like it did in Bosnia . . . it was clearly genocide,
and he put a stop to it pronto . . . . and without invading!

Sudan?! seems that the ineffective bureacracy of the UN is doing what it can . . . sure, a more effective route would be to send in Marines and off a few Janjaweed thugs . . . but the UN pressure, surprisingly, seems to be working.

And this notion that everything can be worked out with 'Trade Agreements' is the blind vision of deregulation-madness . . . the same kind of warped thinking that has destroyed so many developing economies and thrust them into permanent third warld under-development status . . . the WTO and the World Bank abusing its idiot-Vision ideas of Free-Trade, not recognizing teh immense abuse heaped on small countries by large subsidized developed countries through these supposedly 'Free' markets!!!

Its a shame . . . and screams out for non-market perspectives to step up and allow other voices to be heard, other than just those dictated by the monied concerns . . . such entities as the UN for instance . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #68 of 201
On the Balkans/Sudan issue pfflam, you need to look at the body count.


As for reigning in the excesses of capitalism, you find any argument from me there. I do, howver don't like that reigning in putting certain countries at a disadvantage for reasons other than the ones stated.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #69 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
On the Balkans/Sudan issue pfflam, you need to look at the body count.


As for reigning in the excesses of capitalism, you find any argument from me there. I do, howver don't like that reigning in putting certain countries at a disadvantage for reasons other than the ones stated.

Could you please clarify both sentences above?

Body count? You mean all the men and boys lijed up and shot in Bosnia? The little girls blown apart while waiting for water in Sarajevo?
or the people who were not killed due to an arrested plan for 'ethnic-cleansing' in Kosovo?
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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #70 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Could you please clarify both sentences above?

Body count? You mean all the men and boys lijed up and shot in Bosnia? The little girls blown apart while waiting for water in Sarajevo?
or the people who were not killed due to an arrested plan for 'ethnic-cleansing' in Kosovo?


No.

I'm trying to to do five things at once, (and shouldn't be here arguing semantics).

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #71 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
One more time for those in the back, either the inspectors were needed or the whole thing was satus quo B.S. -- with clear indications of enough money (and I don't care if SH was complicit in this game either) greasing enough palms to keep "sanctions" going indefinitly. The son of the SG of the UN was dirty and no one here will even entertain a connection.

Unbeleivable.


One thing you've left out is that this all started in 1991!
That's why the inspectors were needed. I have no doubt that at one time Saddam did have said weapons but got rid of them long before the war. The inspectors were there to confirm that Saddam was in compliance. Right up to the war it appeared to the inspectors that he was. Bush said he had evidence that he wasn't. Bush was wrong. Anything else is an attempt to draw attention away from the main issue of the president probably lied to us all. So what are you having trouble understanding?
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post #72 of 201
I think there is a wierd isolation of the sanctions from the money involved, and on top of that a unlimited condemnation of GWB for more or less showing the same concern that the UN was at least going through the motions with.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #73 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I think there is a wierd isolation of the sanctions from the money involved, and on top of that a unlimited condemnation of GWB for more or less showing the same concern that the UN was at least going through the motions with.

Wrong.

Bush said there were weapons. The UN said that hey wanted to give it more time and really confirm that there were weapons and if so give Saddam more time to comply. Bush went to war anyway. The weapons were the only reason it got off the ground and the support of key people and some of the deluded american public. There were no weapons. There was no main reason for this rush to war and the expensive occupation we are still in. That's it in a nutshell. Anything else is another subject.


Nuff said.
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #74 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Wrong.

Bush said there were weapons. The UN said that hey wanted to give it more time and really confirm that there were weapons and if so give Saddam more time to comply. Bush went to war anyway. The weapons were the only reason it got off the ground and the support of key people and some of the deluded american public. There were no weapons. There was no main reason for this rush to war and the expensive occupation we are still in. That's it in a nutshell. Anything else is another subject.


Nuff said.

Yes, of course. Saddam wasn't compling but secretly was. Okay.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #75 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Yes, of course. Saddam wasn't compling but secretly was. Okay.

Are you trying to appear dense? Saddam had the WOMD during the first Gulf War in 1991! What this latest war ( last year ) was about was him still having the weapons. Which he didn't. Bush said he did. Bush lied ( apparently ). The inspectors were put in place ( first years ago ) to see if he was complying. They said after an exausting search that it appeared he was.

Got it???????

Nuff said.
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #76 of 201
dmz; You're (possibly I hope) in a de-bushification process.

You're looking for hard facts right ? Well I remember exactly when everything happened at the UN. It was during the session (at the UN) where Colin Powell demonstrated how a bottle of Anthrax could be so dangerous and where he showed those blurry satellites picture showing truck supposed to be mobile laboratories.

That day everyone put their cards on the table. There were 3 actors.

- The UN Inspectors began - Hans Bliks and M.Al baradai who were presenting their finding of WOMD in Iraq (They found nothing, most of the WOMD had been destroyed after G-War 1)

- Colin Powell - representing the US and claiming against all evidence (except a few blurry photos) that Iras was a threat.

- The other coalition (anti-war) represented by Dominique de Villepin (The French Foreign Minister) saying for the last time that War was worst solution in this area. Having in mind that Hussein's Iraq and Islamist Terrorism (our main concern afetr all) were not linked.

Problem is this : This UN session was entirely broadcasted in Europe (2 hours).
While only the C-Powell was in the US.

Conclusion is : It's not your fault after all.
You're Medias are responsible. They didn't do their job. You had no choice.
Ask for the full copy of the debate. I can't find it on the UN's website. You'll learn a few things.
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post #77 of 201
Now.

One of those 3 actors got applause, and de-facto approbation (witch quite never happens at a UN session).

Guess who ?

You have 10 seconds ;-)
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post #78 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pierr_alex
dmz; You're (possibly I hope) in a de-bushification process.

You're looking for hard facts right ? Well I remember exactly when everything happened at the UN. It was during the session (at the UN) where Colin Powell demonstrated how a bottle of Anthrax could be so dangerous and where he showed those blurry satellites picture showing truck supposed to be mobile laboratories.

That day everyone put their cards on the table. There were 3 actors.

- The UN Inspectors began - Hans Bliks and M.Al baradai who were presenting their finding of WOMD in Iraq (They found nothing, most of the WOMD had been destroyed after G-War 1)

- Colin Powell - representing the US and claiming against all evidence (except a few blurry photos) that Iras was a threat.

- The other coalition (anti-war) represented by Dominique de Villepin (The French Foreign Minister) saying for the last time that War was worst solution in this area. Having in mind that Hussein's Iraq and Islamist Terrorism (our main concern afetr all) were not linked.

Problem is this : This UN session was entirely broadcasted in Europe (2 hours).
While only the C-Powell was in the US.

Conclusion is : It's not your fault after all.
You're Medias are responsible. They didn't do their job. You had no choice.
Ask for the full copy of the debate. I can't find it on the UN's website. You'll learn a few things.


I really understand that, the inspectors, at that time must have had doubts concerning whether SH had WMD.

But I really don't understand why no one is willing to link the amount of money that was being made from the sanctions to their continued use. Especially when all here claim it was patently obvious that there were no WMD.

I guess the question I have to ask is: "What did Kofi know and when did he know it?"

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #79 of 201
Read CNN's report at that time...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/sprj.irq.powell.un/

The same event commented from France...
http://www.ambafrance-us.org/news/st..._bbc030203.asp
(You probably don't care but... whatever...!)

Answer to the 1.000$ question...
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0907969.html
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post #80 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I really understand that, the inspectors, at that time must have had doubts concerning whether SH had WMD.

But I really don't understand why no one is willing to link the amount of money that was being made from the sanctions to their continued use. Especially when all here claim it was patently obvious that there were no WMD.

I guess the question I have to ask is: "What did Kofi know and when did he know it?"

What do you mean ??? What's your point ? Be precise. Give facts.
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