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post #81 of 201
The thing is that:

After G-War 1, Iraq was disarmed by the coalition (US+Europe).
UN inspectors kept on inspections (until an inspector was found to be a spy - Oops!) for years, while an embargo was applied.

To the surprise of most, Bush claimed in 2003 that Iraq had re-armed.
The question was: 'How'. They could never provide an explanation.

So Kofi and the UN inspectors and the whole planet knew it : Iraq could not have had WOMD.
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post #82 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pierr_alex
What do you mean ??? What's your point ? Be precise. Give facts.

I did read the links, but they were only asking for more time. At the moment, everyone is acting as if what they are saying now -- that it is obvious that Iraq had no WMD -- was what was being said at that time. But this isn't true, since the only thing that was talked about was "more time" --- more time for the very lucrative deals for all concerned to produce more money.

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #83 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
--- more time for the very lucrative deals for all concerned to produce more money.

At area 51, right? Just like the reptilian secret world government commanded them to.

DMZ, I already linked to Rangwala's Claims and Evaluations which gives a good intro (there was much more) into how the claims made by the Bush admin didn't match up to the actual findings. Stop playing games.
post #84 of 201
Let me make it clear to you, dmz, that the reason your conspiracy theory involving the inspectors is wrong is because we are talking about very detailed information that has been consistently proven accurate.
post #85 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Let me make it clear to you, dmz, that the reason your conspiracy theory involving the inspectors is wrong is because we are talking about very detailed information that has been consistently proven accurate.

giant, all you need to do it get me a press release from that time period. This isn't hard. Just one Sec Council meeting where someone -- anyone -- got up and said, to the effect, that "we all know that it's obvious that SH has no WMD, that is why you should not invade".

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #86 of 201
post #87 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
giant, all you need to do it get me a press release from that time period. This isn't hard. Just one Sec Council meeting where someone -- anyone -- got up and said, to the effect, that "we all know that it's obvious that SH has no WMD, that is why you should not invade".

It's your job to find press releases after all. No one is supposed to ignore History ;-)
Here is a list of all UN press releases about Inspections in 2003.
http://secap174.un.org/search?restri...%2Fdocs%2F2003
That's a lot of reading. Don't come back until you have read everything ;-)))
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post #88 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pierr_alex
It's your job to find press releases after all. No one is supposed to ignore History ;-)
Here is a list of all UN press releases about Inspections in 2003.
http://secap174.un.org/search?restri...%2Fdocs%2F2003
That's a lot of reading. Don't come back until you have read everything ;-)))


You're too kind, but I'll have to pass.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #89 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by giant


Don't get me wrong giant, to your credit, you have been saying this before the invasion, and I'm not going to pretend I don't remember the Powell "I can't go before the UN with this bullshit" rumours.


But no one in public [the countries] were playing it that way. "more time, more time" was as far as it got.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #90 of 201
"More time to finish inspections, in order to prove there are no WOMD in Iraq"
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post #91 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I really understand that, the inspectors, at that time must have had doubts concerning whether SH had WMD.

But I really don't understand why no one is willing to link the amount of money that was being made from the sanctions to their continued use. Especially when all here claim it was patently obvious that there were no WMD.

I guess the question I have to ask is: "What did Kofi know and when did he know it?"


If you have something really relevent to add to this subject instead of diverting attention and trying to spin it into something else please do chime in.
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post #92 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Don't get me wrong giant, to your credit, you have been saying this before the invasion, and I'm not going to pretend I don't remember the Powell "I can't go before the UN with this bullshit" rumours.


But no one in public [the countries] were playing it that way. "more time, more time" was as far as it got.

I guess you missed all the protests and the senators who opposed Bush's push to go to war now. We had a rally the weekend before the attack at the university where I work for christ's sake! I still see anti war bumber stickers on cars!

Geez!
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post #93 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
I guess you missed all the protests and the senators who opposed Bush's push to go to war now. We had a rally the weekend before the attack at the university where I work for christ's sake! I still see anti war bumber stickers on cars!

Geez!


more time, more time more time, more time......


I gotta quit arguing about this.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #94 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
more time, more time more time, more time......


I gotta quit arguing about this.

Especially when you don't really have a point.
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post #95 of 201
No, really, you can have the last word. Go ahead. I've royaly pissed off giant so there's not much more damage I can do here.

bye.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #96 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
No, really, you can have the last word. Go ahead. I've royaly pissed off giant so there's not much more damage I can do here.

bye.

I don't really care about the last word. I'm just trying to find out why you even posted? So I guess your only point was to piss someone off.
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post #97 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pierr_alex
"More time to finish inspections, in order to prove there are no WOMD in Iraq"

Exactly that was the official position of France Russia and Germany. Give more time to finish the inspections.

US admin claimed that it was a loss of time, and that immediate action was mandatory.
post #98 of 201
DMZs position strikes me as not dissimilar in kind to some of the rhetoric from Bush apologists around his many statements implying that Saddam's Iraq was just about to nuke us.

That would be a kind of elaborate parsing of irrelevant particulars ("he never used precisely those words so who's the liar now?", or some such), intended, as far as I can make out, to fuck up the discourse enough that people will just throw up their hands (or maybe just throw up) and declare the topic vexed beyond understanding.

What I don't understand is why a person of good will and intelligence would indulge in this transparent effort to muddy the waters.

The historical record is very clear on what has happened. Whether or not "everybody" or "the UN" or "all of Europe" made repeated definitive statements that Saddam absolutely did not have WOMD is absolutely not the point. Pretending like it is, that failing to provide evidence of this straw man somehow casts a bad light on the opponents of the war, then and now, is silly.
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post #99 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
DMZs position strikes me as not dissimilar in kind to some of the rhetoric from Bush apologists around his many statements implying that Saddam's Iraq was just about to nuke us.

That would be a kind of elaborate parsing of irrelevant particulars ("he never used precisely those words so who's the liar now?", or some such), intended, as far as I can make out, to fuck up the discourse enough that people will just throw up their hands (or maybe just throw up) and declare the topic vexed beyond understanding.

What I don't understand is why a person of good will and intelligence would indulge in this transparent effort to muddy the waters.

The historical record is very clear on what has happened. Whether or not "everybody" or "the UN" or "all of Europe" made repeated definitive statements that Saddam absolutely did not have WOMD is absolutely not the point. Pretending like it is, that failing to provide evidence of this straw man somehow casts a bad light on the opponents of the war, then and now, is silly.


powerdoc makes about as much sense as you can on this, where GWB called this an IMMEDIATE threat (as did several other countries.)

If inspections were still worthwhile, needed, kinda-sorta wanted, desired, worth sending, then this is not the same as: "everybody knew there was no WMD in Iraq because it was obvious." You cannot reconcile the latter statement with the former action, one or the other must be wrong.

It isn't "muddying the waters" to point this out. Either the UN was milking the Iraq situation or it really thought the WMD could be still be there in some form.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #100 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
DMZs position strikes me as not dissimilar in kind to some of the rhetoric from Bush apologists around his many statements implying that Saddam's Iraq was just about to nuke us.

That would be a kind of elaborate parsing of irrelevant particulars ("he never used precisely those words so who's the liar now?", or some such), intended, as far as I can make out, to fuck up the discourse enough that people will just throw up their hands (or maybe just throw up) and declare the topic vexed beyond understanding.

What I don't understand is why a person of good will and intelligence would indulge in this transparent effort to muddy the waters.

The historical record is very clear on what has happened. Whether or not "everybody" or "the UN" or "all of Europe" made repeated definitive statements that Saddam absolutely did not have WOMD is absolutely not the point. Pretending like it is, that failing to provide evidence of this straw man somehow casts a bad light on the opponents of the war, then and now, is silly.


Exactly! Instead of saying : " Well it looks like Bush lied and that's not a good thing. Maybe we should look into this? " He goes for the distraction so as not to focus on the issue at hand. The hope is that we'll get frustrated at give up talking about it.

But it's always what the Bush supporters have done so nothing new. Excuse and distract. Excuse and distract.

Pathetic.
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post #101 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
powerdoc makes about as much sense as you can on this, where GWB called this an IMMEDIATE threat (as did several other countries.)

If inspections were still worthwhile, needed, kinda-sorta wanted, desired, worth sending, then this is not the same as: "everybody knew there was no WMD in Iraq because it was obvious." You cannot reconcile the latter statement with the former action, one or the other must be wrong.

It isn't "muddying the waters" to point this out. Either the UN was milking the Iraq situation or it really thought the WMD could be still be there in some form.

But it is muddying the waters. No matter why the inspectors were there it doesn't change the fact that we went to war because our president told us a falsehood. In my book ( and the subject of this thread ) that's much worse than whatever the hell was going on at the UN or why they wanted inspectors ( which we already know but you don't or won't seem to grasp ).

Clear thinking people knew there were no WOMD in Iraq but proof is needed to satisfy the doubters and people with a neutral stance. That's why the inspectors were there to prove that he was in compliance. They did prove that. Bush just wasn't listening.
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post #102 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
powerdoc makes about as much sense as you can on this, where GWB called this an IMMEDIATE threat (as did several other countries.)

If inspections were still worthwhile, needed, kinda-sorta wanted, desired, worth sending, then this is not the same as: "everybody knew there was no WMD in Iraq because it was obvious." You cannot reconcile the latter statement with the former action, one or the other must be wrong.

It isn't "muddying the waters" to point this out. Either the UN was milking the Iraq situation or it really thought the WMD could be still be there in some form.

It's muddying the waters because "everybody knew there was no WMD in Iraq because it was obvious" is a distortion of the pre-invasion mind set and you're using it as a set-up for a straw man attack on the integrity of the UN (and your OFF link is spurious).

The accurate rendering would be "the Bush admin has made a poor, apparently dishonest case for WMD, particularly given that the outcome of this case is going to be a preemptive strike on a sovereign nation. The UN inspectors are in the process of providing definitive answers, but the data so far indicates that Saddam did not restart his programs after the Gulf war and whatever stockpiles he had are either gone or deteriorated. To toss out the inspectors now and forge ahead on what many observers in a position to know think are flat out lies (drones that could reach the US, nuclear weapons programs, vast stockpiles of bio-weapons) would be a criminal breach of international law (as well as deeply wrong-headed and counter-productive). It is simply not possible to prove beyond all doubt the absence of weapons, but it is on the Bush admin to make a reasonable case that Iraq is, in fact, a danger to the United States. They have not done that, and have played fast and loose with the evidence they do have, suggesting that a better case cannot be made, suggesting that the WMD aren't there."
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post #103 of 201
What the box said.

Jimmac, this is an argument you could have won. But by twisting the clamp too many revolution you broke it.

I clearly remembered the days after Powells presentation before the UNSC where the evidence of yellow cake uranium from africa, centrifuge tubes and building used for chemical plants was all dismissed by experts. But more evidence was presented and some of it could have turned out not to be hawkish wishful thinking. And I clearly remember the exchange between Joschka Fischer and Rumsfeld, "Excuse me,I am not convinced" (while Rumsfeld looks meaner than ever) and remember thinking "Hmm that pretty strong words" but he turned outto be 120% right.
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post #104 of 201
LOL...the denial element by some Bushies is insane.

We need only go back 10 years to find out that Iraq had no WMDs.
_
Hussein Kamel, who headed Iraq's nuclear, chemical, biological and missile programs for 10 years defected to Jordan in 95 and told UN inspectors and the CIA and British military intelligence that Iraq had destroyed all its chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them on his order after the 91 Gulf War.

The inspectors where there until what, 98?

Then we have 'Curveball"...the Iraqi defector, "creator" of the mobile labs "caravans of death" story.

Of course, the Germans had warned us that he wasn't a credible source. Didn't matter. Oh, by the way. Mr. "Curveball" later turned out to be the brother of a top aide of Ahmad Chalabi.

I hope the UN for Food scandal who some on here love to bring up in EVERY f-ing thread isn't using any info. provided by Chalabi.
post #105 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
powerdoc makes about as much sense as you can on this, where GWB called this an IMMEDIATE threat (as did several other countries.)

Well. Another fact distorted :
You've never had any kind of support from the people of any country from the so called 'coalition'.
If you're talking about UK or Spain, you have to know that 80% in UK where against the war, 90% in Spain. That huge ! Governments from those countries have gone to war (for a reason we still don't understand) against there people will. Aznar has been ousted since.
I'd be glad to hear from some British or Spaniard citizen on that...
(and don't ask me a link on the BBC website about the huge anti-war demonstration, the biggest demonstration of all time in London ;-)
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post #106 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pierr_alex
Well. Another fact distorted :
You've never had any kind of support from the people of any country from the so called 'coalition'.
If you're talking about UK or Spain, you have to know that 80% in UK where against the war, 90% in Spain. That huge ! Governments from those countries have gone to war (for a reason we still don't understand) against there people will. Aznar has been ousted since.
I'd be glad to hear from some British or Spaniard citizen on that...
(and don't ask me a link on the BBC website about the huge anti-war demonstration, the biggest demonstration of all time in London ;-)


oh, Bother

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #107 of 201
post #108 of 201
We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.___
Condoleeza Rice, US National Security Advisor
CNN Late Edition
9/8/2002


But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them.___
George W. Bush, President
Interview with TVP Poland
5/30/2003

How the United States should react if Iraq acquired WMD. "The first line of defense...should be a clear and classical statement of deterrence--if they do acquire WMD, their weapons will be unusable because any attempt to use them will bring national obliteration."___
Condoleeza Rice, US National Security Advisor
January/February 2000 issue of Foreign Affairs
2/1/2000

We are greatly concerned about any possible linkup between terrorists and regimes that have or seek weapons of mass destruction...In the case of Saddam Hussein, we've got a dictator who is clearly pursuing and already possesses some of these weapons.. A regime that hates America and everything we stand for must never be permitted to threaten America with weapons of mass destruction.___
Dick Cheney, Vice President
Detroit, Fund-Raiser
6/20/2002


Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. ___
Dick Cheney, Vice President
Speech to VFW National Convention
8/26/2002


There is already a mountain of evidence that Saddam Hussein is gathering weapons for the purpose of using them. And adding additional information is like adding a foot to Mount Everest.___
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary
Response to Question From Press
9/6/2002


Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons. ___
George W. Bush, President
Speech to UN General Assembly
9/12/2002


Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons. We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have ___
George W. Bush, President
Radio Address
10/5/2002


The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas. ___
George W. Bush, President
Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
10/7/2002


And surveillance photos reveal that the regime is rebuilding facilities that it had used to produce chemical and biological weapons.___
George W. Bush, President
Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
10/7/2002


After eleven years during which we have tried containment, sanctions, inspections, even selected military action, the end result is that Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is increasing his capabilities to make more. And he is moving ever closer to developing a nuclear weapon.___
George W. Bush, President
Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
10/7/2002


We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas___
George W. Bush, President
Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
10/7/2002


Iraq, despite UN sanctions, maintains an aggressive program to rebuild the infrastructure for its nuclear, chemical, biological, and missile programs. In each instance, Iraq's procurement agents are actively working to obtain both weapons-specific and dual-use materials and technologies critical to their rebuilding and expansion efforts, using front companies and whatever illicit means are at hand.___
John Bolton, Undersecretary of State for Arms Control
Speech to the Hudson Institute
11/1/2002


We estimate that once Iraq acquires fissile material -- whether from a foreign source or by securing the materials to build an indigenous fissile material capability -- it could fabricate a nuclear weapon within one year. It has rebuilt its civilian chemical infrastructure and renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard, sarin, and VX. It actively maintains all key aspects of its offensive BW [biological weapons] program.___
John Bolton, Undersecretary of State for Arms Control
Speech to the Hudson Institute
11/1/2002


Iraq could decide on any given day to provide biological or chemical weapons to a terrorist group or to individual terrorists,...The war on terror will not be won until Iraq is completely and verifiably deprived of weapons of mass destruction.___
Dick Cheney, Vice President
Denver, Address To Air National Guard
12/1/2002


If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world. ___
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary
Press Briefing
12/2/2002


The president of the United States and the secretary of defense would not assert as plainly and bluntly as they have that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction if it was not true, and if they did not have a solid basis for saying it
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary
Response to Question From Press
12/4/2002


We know for a fact that there are weapons there.___
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary
Press Briefing
1/9/2003


I am absolutely convinced, based on the information that's been given to me, that the weapon of mass destruction which can kill more people than an atomic bomb -- that is, biological weapons -- is in the hands of the leadership of Iraq.___
Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader
MSNBC Interview
1/10/2003


What is unique about Iraq compared to, I would argue, any other country in the world, in this juncture, is the exhaustion of diplomacy thus far, and, No. 2, this intersection of weapons of mass destruction.___
Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader
NewsHour Interview
1/22/2003


The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production.___
George W. Bush, President
State of the Union Address
1/28/2003


Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. ___
George W. Bush, President
State of the Union Address
1/28/2003


We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more. ___
Colin Powell, Secretary of State
Remarks to UN Security Council
2/5/2003



There can be no doubt that Saddam Hussein has biological weapons and the capability to rapidly produce more, many more. And he has the ability to dispense these lethal poisons and diseases in ways that can cause massive death and destruction. If biological weapons seem too terrible to contemplate, chemical weapons are equally chilling___
Colin Powell, Secretary of State
Addresses the U.N. Security Council
2/5/2003


We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have.___
George W. Bush, President
Radio Address
2/8/2003


In Iraq, a dictator is building and hiding weapons that could enable him to dominate the Middle East and intimidate the civilized world -- and we will not allow it. ___
George W. Bush, President
Speech to the American Enterprise Institute
2/26/2003


If Iraq had disarmed itself, gotten rid of its weapons of mass destruction over the past 12 years, or over the last several months since (UN Resolution) 1441 was enacted, we would not be facing the crisis that we now have before us . . . But the suggestion that we are doing this because we want to go to every country in the Middle East and rearrange all of its pieces is not correct. ___
Colin Powell, Secretary of State
Interview with Radio France International
2/28/2003


I am not eager to send young Americans into harm's way in Iraq, or to see innocent people killed or hurt in military operations. Given all of the facts and circumstances known to us, however, I am convinced that if we wait, a threat will continue to materialize in Iraq that could cause incalculable damage to world peace in general, and to the United States in particular.___
Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader
Letter to Future of Freedom Foundation
3/1/2003


Iraq is a grave threat to this nation. It desires to acquire and use weapons of mass terror and is run by a despot with a proven record of willingness to use them. Iraq has had 12 years to comply with UN requirements for disarmament and has failed to do so. The president is right to say it's time has run out.___
Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader
Senate Speech
3/7/2003


So has the strategic decision been made to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction by the leadership in Baghdad? . . . I think our judgment has to be clearly not.___
Colin Powell, Secretary of State
Remarks to UN Security Council
3/7/2003


Getting rid of Saddam Hussein's regime is our best inoculation. Destroying once and for all his weapons of disease and death is a vaccination for the world.___
Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader
Washington Post op-ed
3/16/2003


Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that [Saddam] has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.___
Dick Cheney, Vice President
Meet The Press
3/16/2003


Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised. ___
George W. Bush, President
Address to the Nation
3/17/2003


The United States . . . is now at war "so we will not ever see" what terrorists could do "if supplied with weapons of mass destruction by Saddam Hussein."___
Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader
Senate Debate
3/20/2003


Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly . . . all this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes.___
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary
Press Briefing
3/21/2003


There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. And . . . as this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them.___
General Tommy Franks, Commander in Chief Central Command
Press Conference
3/22/2003


One of our top objectives is to find and destroy the WMD. There are a number of sites.___
Victoria Clark, Pentagon Spokeswoman
Press Briefing
3/22/2003


I have no doubt we're going to find big stores of weapons of mass destruction.___
Kenneth Adelman, Defense Policy Board member
Washington Post, p. A27
3/23/2003


We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat. ___
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
ABC Interview
3/30/2003


We simply cannot live in fear of a ruthless dictator, aggressor and terrorist such as Saddam Hussein, who possesses the world's most deadly weapons.___
Bill Frist, Senate Majority Leader
Speech to American Israel Political Action Committee
3/31/2003



We still need to find and secure Iraq's weapons of mass destruction facilities and secure Iraq's borders so we can prevent the flow of weapons of mass destruction materials and senior regime officials out of the country.___
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
Press Conference
4/9/2003



You bet we're concerned [concerned that those weapons might have been shipped out of the country]about it. And one of the reasons it's important is because the nexus between terrorist states with weapons of mass destruction ... and terrorist groups -- networks -- is a critical link. And the thought that ... some of those materials could leave the country and [get] in the hands of terrorist networks would be a very unhappy prospect. So it is important to us to see that that doesn't happen.___
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
Press Conference
4/9/2003



Obviously the administration intends to publicize all the weapons of mass destruction U.S. forces find -- and there will be plenty. Robert Kagan, Neocon scholar
Washington Post op-ed
4/9/2003



I think you have always heard, and you continue to hear from officials, a measure of high confidence that, indeed, the weapons of mass destruction will be found.___
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary
Press Briefing
4/10/2003



But make no mistake -- as I said earlier -- we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found. ___
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary
Press Briefing
4/10/2003



Were not going to find anything until we find people who tell us where the things are. And we have that very high on our priority list, to find the people who know. And when we do, then well learn precisely where things were and what was done.___
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
Meet the Press
4/13/2003



I have absolute confidence that there are weapons of mass destruction inside this country. Whether we will turn out, at the end of the day, to find them in one of the 2,000 or 3,000 sites we already know about or whether contact with one of these officials who we may come in contact with will tell us, ``Oh, well, there's actually another site,'' and we'll find it there, I'm not sure. General Tommy Franks, Commander in Chief Central Command
Fox New
4/13/2003



We are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions with Iraqi scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some. And so we will find them.___
George W. Bush, President
NBC Interview
4/24/2003



There are people who in large measure have information that we need . . . so that we can track down the weapons of mass destruction in that country.___
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
Press Briefing
4/25/2003



We'll find them. It'll be a matter of time to do so.___
George W. Bush, President
Remarks to Reporters
5/3/2003



I'm absolutely sure that there are weapons of mass destruction there and the evidence will be forthcoming. We're just getting it just now. ___
Colin Powell, Secretary of State
Remarks to Reporters
5/4/2003



We never believed that we'd just tumble over weapons of mass destruction in that country.___
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
Fox News Interview
5/4/2003



I'm not surprised if we begin to uncover the weapons program of Saddam Hussein -- because he had a weapons program. George W. Bush, President
Remarks to Reporters
5/6/2003



U.S. officials never expected that "we were going to open garages and find" weapons of mass destruction.___
Condoleeza Rice, US National Security Advisor
Reuters Interview
5/12/2003



I just don't know whether it was all destroyed years ago -- I mean, there's no question that there were chemical weapons years ago -- whether they were destroyed right before the war, (or) whether they're still hidden.___
Maj. Gen. David Petraeus, Commander 101st Airborne
Press Briefing
5/13/2003



We said all along that we will never get to the bottom of the Iraqi WMD program simply by going and searching specific sites, that you'd have to be able to get people who know about the programs to talk to you.___
Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense
Interview with Australian Broadcasting
5/13/2003



Before the war, there's no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical. I expected them to be found. I still expect them to be found.___
Gen. Michael Hagee, Commandant of the Marine Corps
Interview with Reporters
5/21/2003



It's going to take time to find them, but we know he had them. And whether he destroyed them, moved them or hid them, we're going to find out the truth. One thing is for certain: Saddam Hussein no longer threatens America with weapons of mass destruction.
_George W. Bush, President
Speech at a weapons factory in Ohio
5/25/2003



Given time, given the number of prisoners now that we're interrogating, I'm confident that we're going to find weapons of mass destruction.___
Gen. Richard Myers, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff
NBC Today Show interview
5/26/2003



They may have had time to destroy them, and I don't know the answer.___
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
Remarks to Council on Foreign Relations
5/27/2003



For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on.___
Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense
Vanity Fair interview
5/28/2003



The President is indeed satisfied with the intelligence that he received. And I think that's borne out by the fact that, just as Secretary Powell described at the United Nations, we have found the bio trucks that can be used only for the purpose of producing biological weapons. That's proof-perfect that the intelligence in that regard was right on target.___
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary
Press Briefing
5/29/2003



We have teams of people that are out looking. They've investigated a number of sites. And within the last week or two, they have in fact captured and have in custody two of the mobile trailers that Secretary Powell talked about at the United Nations as being biological weapons laboratories.___
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
Infinity Radio Interview
5/30/2003



You remember when [Secretary of State] Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons ...They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two...And we'll find more weapons as time goes on.___
George W. Bush, President
Press Briefing
5/30/2003


It was a surprise to me then -- it remains a surprise to me now -- that we have not uncovered weapons, as you say, in some of the forward dispersal sites. Believe me, it's not for lack of trying. We've been to virtually every ammunition supply point between the Kuwaiti border and Baghdad, but they're simply not there. ___
Lt. Gen. James Conway, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force
Press Interview
5/30/2003


Do I think we're going to find something? Yeah, I kind of do, because I think there's a lot of information out there.___
Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton, Defense Intelligence Agency
Press Conference
5/30/2003



Q: The fact that there hasn't been substantial cache of weapons of mass destruction -- is that an embarrassment? Wolfowitz: No. Is it an embarrassment to people on the other side that we've discovered these biological production vans, which the defector told us about? ___
Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense
CNN Interview
5/31/2003


This wasn't material I was making up, it came from the intelligence community___
Colin Powell, Secretary of State
Press Briefing
6/2/2003


We know that some of them, especially the biological weapons, were being destroyed," Hastert said, adding that it would "take a little while to find weapons of mass destruction... and we're going to continue to do it.___
Dennis Hastert, House Speaker R-IL
Press Briefing
6/4/2003


We recently found two mobile biological weapons facilities which were capable of producing biological agents. This is the man who spent decades hiding tools of mass murder. He knew the inspectors were looking for them. You know better than me he's got a big country in which to hide them. We're on the look. We'll reveal the truth___
George W. Bush, President
CAMP SAYLIYA, Qatar
6/5/2003


I would put before you Exhibit A, the mobile biological labs that we have found. People are saying, "Well, are they truly mobile biological labs?" Yes, they are. And the DCI, George Tenet, Director of Central Intelligence, stands behind that assessment. Colin Powell, Secretary of State
Fox News Interview
6/8/2003


No one ever said that we knew precisely where all of these agents were, where they were stored ___
Condoleeza Rice, US National Security Advisor
Meet the Press
6/8/2003


What the president has said is because it's been the long-standing view of numerous people, not only in this country, not only in this administration, but around the world, including at the United Nations, who came to those conclusions...And the president is not going to engage in the rewriting of history that others may be trying to engage in. ___
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary
Response to Question From Press
6/9/2003


Iraq had a weapons program...Intelligence throughout the decade showed they had a weapons program. I am absolutely convinced with time we'll find out they did have a weapons program.
George W. Bush, President
Comment to Reporters
6/9/2003


The biological weapons labs that we believe strongly are biological weapons labs, we didn't find any biological weapons with those labs. But should that give us any comfort? Not at all. Those were labs that could produce biological weapons whenever Saddam Hussein might have wanted to have a biological weapons inventory.___
Colin Powell, Secretary of State
Associated Press Interview
6/12/2003


Those documents were only one piece of evidence in a larger body of evidence suggesting that Iraq attempted to purchase uranium from Africa ... The issue of Iraq's pursuit of uranium in Africa is supported by multiple sources of intelligence. The other sources of evidence did and do support the president's statement. ___
Sean McCormack, National Security Council Spokesman
Statement to press
6/13/2003


My personal view is that their intelligence has been, I'm sure, imperfect, but good. In other words, I think the intelligence was correct in general, and that you always will find out precisely what it was once you get on the ground and have a chance to talk to people and explore it, and I think that will happen.___
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
Press Briefing
6/18/2003


I have reason, every reason, to believe that the intelligence that we were operating off was correct and that we will, in fact, find weapons or evidence of weapons, programs, that are conclusive. But that's just a matter of time...It's now less than eight weeks since the end of major combat in Iraq and I believe that patience will prove to be a virtue___
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
Pentagon media briefing.
6/24/2003


MS. BLOCK: There were no toxins found in those trailers. SECRETARY POWELL: Which could mean one of several things: one, they hadn't been used yet to develop toxins; or, secondly, they had been sterilized so thoroughly that there is no residual left. It may well be that they hadn't been used yet. ___
Colin Powell, Secretary of State
All Things Considered, Interview
6/27/2003


That was the concern we had with Saddam Hussein. Not only did he have weapons -- and we'll uncover not only his weapons but all of his weapons programs -- he never lost the intent to have these kinds of weapons.___
Colin Powell, Secretary of State
All Things Considered, Interview
6/27/2003


I think the burden is on those people who think he didn't have weapons of mass destruction to tell the world where they are. ___
Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary
Press Briefing
7/9/2003

source.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #109 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
oh, Bother


OH BROTHER!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #110 of 201
What dmz is saying, in fact, is that, its not a problem that Bush lied a countless number of times; its a problem because 'the French, the Germans and whatnot didn't tell us that there were no WMD's'.

There is something of sort of sadomasochism in this whole Iraq issue; they bombed the hell out of a country, killed about 100,000 civilans that we know of, ruined every freakin' thing that didn't go along with them, and when asked why, they simply said 'Oh we thought that's how they liked it.'

The truth is, they will now (yet again) blame the "euros" as FoxNews and other war-mongerers call them, for what is inherently their own little perverse war(s). Its the French, and especially that greedy Chirac that we bombed Iraq. If he told us that there were no weapons we wouldn't have done it!

...except that he did. Not only him, but many others. We were just now told that he did. We were given speeches by Bush and Powell and the likes of Wolfowitz (the mastermind of this whole war; I have a pretty good idea why, but won't say it here; others can speculate if they wish). We were fed with false patriotism, with false scenarios and false plans.

We were essentialy told that we were going there because it would make us more secure. If it takes 100,000 dead people, millions of injured, a ruined country that never killed a single American citizen to 'make us more secure', I say that I don't want to feel any more secure than I felt in 2003 before we started bombing them like crazy.

'tis a very big stain in the history of this country, and the sad part is, its still on-going...
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #111 of 201
Thread Starter 
"US voters 'endorsed Iraq policy'

as far as they are concened, its all over.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4178655.stm
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #112 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
"US voters 'endorsed Iraq policy'

as far as they are concened, its all over.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4178655.stm


That should read half of U.S. voters endorsed Iraq policy.

There are quite a few of us who would like to see GWB tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail. As far as we are concerned it's far from over.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #113 of 201
Thread Starter 
It's hard for me to see how there will be any real call to accountability. I think that most Democrats (elected ones I mean) are afraid to really go after the Administration because they are afraid of the political fallout. The general perception is that the President is popular and most Dems are afraid to try to bring him down. The Dems remember what happened the last time someone tried to bring down a popular President. I think that you need to look deeper than the % of people who support the President and consider the amount of power and influence that this block controls. The common man is only a threat to the power structure if he takes to the streets, and I dont see that happening any time soon.
"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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"A more sensitive and caring Common man for 2005"
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post #114 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
It's hard for me to see how there will be any real call to accountability. I think that most Democrats (elected ones I mean) are afraid to really go after the Administration because they are afraid of the political fallout. The general perception is that the President is popular and most Dems are afraid to try to bring him down. The Dems remember what happened the last time someone tried to bring down a popular President. I think that you need to look deeper than the % of people who support the President and consider the amount of power and influence that this block controls. The common man is only a threat to the power structure if he takes to the streets, and I dont see that happening any time soon.


I'm sure you want to see it that way but there are other things in the Bush pinata and more all the time.

Power blocks can be broken with ther right amount of bad press. Bush is so blatant with his misdeeds he can't possibly keep it up forever. Our one saving grace : He's not particularly smart. He'll trip up at some point in the next 4 years and then all the goodies in the pinata will come falling out ( including this one ). Just watch and see.

" The general perception is that the President is popular "

Only half popular.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #115 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
The common man is only a threat to the power structure if he takes to the streets, and I dont see that happening any time soon.

Well we are counting on you so donĀ“t lets us down

Hey Bush voters. Just to let you know: Your vote made it okay for Bush to start the war despite the lack of weapons. The recall of the search for WoMDs announced yesterday was one of the factors that influenced you back in November and despite that you elected Bush.



I think we need another grammar category, the reverse past tense, for describing negative sequenced cause and effect relations.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #116 of 201
My tribute to UN inspections, the OFF scandle, and guilt by association:




more time! more time! we can still wring out another 100 million or two!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #117 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
My tribute to UN inspections, the OFF scandle, and guilt by association:

more time! more time! we can still wring out another 100 million or two!

Congratulations - the sane rationality quotient in your posts just went up 100%
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #118 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
My tribute to UN inspections, the OFF scandle, and guilt by association:




more time! more time! we can still wring out another 100 million or two!

So? If you're willing to accept the president lying to start a war accepting this should be a piece of cake!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #119 of 201
Hey DMZ . . . guess what? the first indictment in the Oil For Food just came in . .. .
what nationality do you think the criminal was?
Where did he live?

I'll tell you: AMERICAN FROM VIRGINIA
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #120 of 201
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Hey DMZ . . . guess what? the first indictment in the Oil For Food just came in . .. .
what nationality do you think the criminal was?
Where did he live?

I'll tell you: AMERICAN FROM VIRGINIA


Good. PM me when Kofi does his perp walk.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
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