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Is this really happening in America?

post #1 of 52
Thread Starter 
Ther're being called the "Philadelphia 5" -- Christians arrested [apparently] for witnessing to Gays at and Outing party. (There was a documentary filmaker in the area who taped the arrests.)

The charges include "ethnic intimidation". I can't believe what I'm reading -- this sounds like something from USSR in the 1960s.

Link

Link

(I haven't checked to see if this is showing up at WP or NYT, etc.)


EDIT: more links

http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2005...y-830947.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...4/121141.shtml


http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/new...0586941.htm?1c

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #2 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Ther're being called the "Philadelphia 5" -- Christians arrested [apparently] for witnessing to Gays at and Outing party. (There was a documentary filmaker in the area who taped the arrests.)

The charges include "ethnic intimidation". I can't believe what I'm reading -- this sounds like something from USSR in the 1960s.

Link

Link

(I haven't checked to see if this is showing up at WP or NYT, etc.)


EDIT: more links

http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2005...y-830947.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...4/121141.shtml


http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/new...0586941.htm?1c

Sometimes I don't understand US justice. Risking 47 years of prisons for what ?

BTW, I did not understant the story very well related in this links. All this story seems very weird and obscure to me. Perhaps I miss something.
post #3 of 52
Thread Starter 
Here's a better link.....

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...0627664.htm?1c

If Tim Robbins talks about a "chill wind" for dissent when people won't spend money on his movies, 47 years for preaching at a gay event sounds like the reintroduction of the Gulag.


I can't believe this is happening.

Quote:
......During the hearing, Prosecutor Charles Urick said, quoting scripture is "fighting words," and "hate speech."

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #4 of 52
I don't like any of it. I didn't like it during the campaign where Democrats weren't allowed to hold signs within a mile of Bush. I can understand if they're just harassing private individuals - that shouldn't be allowed, and it shouldn't be allowed even if the harassers think they have a religious basis for what they do. But if it's some kind of public event like a parade or whatever, they should be allowed to protest it within reason.

I think the difference is key - I don't think an atheist should be allowed to take a bullhorn in front of your house, dmz, and yell at you all day. But if you're having a religious revival in a park, a bunch of atheists should be allowed to protest it.
post #5 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Here's a better link.....

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...0627664.htm?1c

If Tim Robbins talks about a "chill wind" for dissent when people won't spend money on his movies, 47 years for preaching at a gay event sounds like the reintroduction of the Gulag.


I can't believe this is happening.

Yes risking 47 years ( I doubt that any judge will give 47 years for this) for such minor offense is incredible.

I will not judge US laws, and liberty of free speech. But the law has to be moderated. It seems that you risk more for preaching, than for killing (at least according to the french law).
post #6 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Here's a better link.....

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...0627664.htm?1c

If Tim Robbins talks about a "chill wind" for dissent when people won't spend money on his movies, 47 years for preaching at a gay event sounds like the reintroduction of the Gulag.

I can't believe this is happening.

You'd better start asking yourself some serious questions. I've been saying this about the Bush admin all along - loads of people have. You're sitting up now because it's hitting you where you live.

Fact is, you've been duped. And if you want more evidence just check this out:

Crosses banned at Bush inaugaration

Quote:
"By prohibiting the public display of crosses at the Inauguration Parade, the Secret Service has trampled the First Amendment and crushed religious freedom in the public square," remarked Rev. Patrick Mahoney, Director of the Christian Defense Coalition. "Simply put, it is religious bigotry and censorship."

Mahoney added that it appears that Christian symbols are the only ones being forbidden, and he will risk being apprehended by the Secret Service to declare his right to free speech and freedom of religion.

It was only a matter of time before the Christian right realised they had been duped. Bush needed their vote and so he had to appear to be what they would vote for. Now it doesn't matter as he's re-elected - the mask is no longer necessary.

Time to wise up.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #7 of 52
Excellent. Yes it is becoming more apparent every day. This Armstrong Williams thing even caught me by surprise. BushCorp is really effective. They thought it couldn't happen in Germany too. Iraq reminds me of...Eurasia. Saddam is Goldstein.
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"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #8 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
You'd better start asking yourself some serious questions. I've been saying this about the Bush admin all along - loads of people have. You're sitting up now because it's hitting you where you live.

Fact is, you've been duped. And if you want more evidence just check this out:

Crosses banned at Bush inaugaration



It was only a matter of time before the Christian right realised they had been duped. Bush needed their vote and so he had to appear to be what they would vote for. Now it doesn't matter as he's re-elected - the mask is no longer necessary.

Time to wise up.

I don't know about "duped" -- I have slightly insider veiw on how the Republicans work thier magic, here in my state. It ain't pretty.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #9 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
It seems that you risk more for preaching, than for killing (at least according to the french law).


I agree -- this is crazy.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #10 of 52
Nicely placed little edit in that video . . . one second he is talking to a policeman about moving on and then teh next he is on the ground asking why he is being arrested.

I will say that if it is what each of these extremely biased sources that you cite say it is then it is bad
but I don't believe it . . . it is too transparent and too perfect: he went in there with the only purpose of causing trouble for his cause . . . and with a handy dandy (or not so dandy) filmmaker . . .

I think that there was editing and something was edited out and the pretense that he only wants his signs message to be read is disengenuous

But, if they werre really arrested for carrying the signs and protesting then I start to worry . . . but like Brussell and segovious said, I was already worried before Bush wouldn't let people with T-shirts near a Bush-event . ..
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #11 of 52
This isn't a Bush thing. This is a two-party thing. Unless you're voting for a 3rd party that isn't fascist, you're part of the problem.

Of course, persecuting Christians is generally a waste of resources, even if you happen to be a fascist. When you have a religion whose foundation is peaceful self-sacrifice, you're not going to beat it easily with corporal justice.


On a totally different note.
Quote:
Testiculos habet! Deo gratias!

Is that a reference to something? I ask because it's been a long time since I was in a Latin class, but it's not making sense, and I'm curious.
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post #12 of 52
Quote:
Testiculos habet! Deo gratias!

I think it's related to the myth of Jeanne the pope (she never existed, and was much a fairy tale, for explaining why women should not be allowed to be pope).

When a pope is elected, he sit on a special chair, and someone check if he is a male. If it's the case, then the checker said : testiculos habet! deo gratias!
post #13 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Excellent. Yes it is becoming more apparent every day. This Armstrong Williams thing even caught me by surprise. BushCorp is really effective. They thought it couldn't happen in Germany too. Iraq reminds me of...Eurasia. Saddam is Goldstein.

Uhhh.. it's a weeeeeeeee bit faaaaaaa(rrrr) fetched, isn't it?
" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
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" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
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post #14 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Uhhh.. it's a weeeeeeeee bit faaaaaaa(rrrr) fetched, isn't it?

Yes, utterly ridiculous - everyone knows OBL is Goldstein....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #15 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Nicely placed little edit in that video . . .


video? I didn't see any STINKING video!

where??

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #16 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yes, utterly ridiculous - everyone knows OBL is Goldstein....

I'll give you a definite maybe.

Btw, i like your Webpage .
I nicked some of the pics, forgive me,
couldn't resist.
" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
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" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
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post #17 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
I'll give you a definite maybe.

Btw, i like your Webpage .
I nicked some of the pics, forgive me,
couldn't resist.

No probs

Did you like this one of my daughter
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #18 of 52
People should always have the right to free speech in a public place within reason.

While I do not agree with the protesters in this case I do believe they have the right to protest.

The charges leveled against these individuals do seem beyond the norm and raise some flags within a city which should know far better.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #19 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
video? I didn't see any STINKING video!

where??

You didn't even see the video on a page that you linked to?!?!?!?!

and you automatically assume that these extremely biased ax-to-grind sites that are peddling this story as just 'another in a long line of Gay Agenda to destroy America' are telling the truth . . . . and without even looking closely!?!?!?!

Something smacks your reactionary knee and you bite it hook-line-and-sinker (how's that for mixing metaphors?!)
I should have you 'rounded-up' for that lack of self-critical presentation . . . .
remember . . . we are watching you . . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #20 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You didn't even see the video on a page that you linked to?!?!?!?!


hmmmm.. philadelphia daily has an axe to grind?


-didn't see the video --- maybe if I unplugged the phone I'd have more time? It keeps ringing.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #21 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I think it's related to the myth of Jeanne the pope (she never existed, and was much a fairy tale, for explaining why women should not be allowed to be pope).

When a pope is elected, he sit on a special chair, and someone check if he is a male. If it's the case, then the checker said : testiculos habet! deo gratias!

The real source of confusion to me is: "deo gratias." I feel like some prepositions or articles must have been elided or something.
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post #22 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I think it's related to the myth of Jeanne the pope (she never existed, and was much a fairy tale, for explaining why women should not be allowed to be pope).

When a pope is elected, he sit on a special chair, and someone check if he is a male. If it's the case, then the checker said : testiculos habet! deo gratias!

PowerDoc's got it! There's just something funny to me about grabbing the Pope's nads and saying "He's got balls! Thank God!" I wonder if that is or ever was true.
post #23 of 52
What of the Pope is a hermaphrodite?
post #24 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
PowerDoc's got it! There's just something funny to me about grabbing the Pope's nads and saying "He's got balls! Thank God!" I wonder if that is or ever was true.

Definitely is - still happens with choirboys...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #25 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Definitely is - still happens with choirboys...

Are you speaking from experience ?
post #26 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Are you speaking from experience ?

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #27 of 52
Well, it would be nice if anyone knew what they were talking about with regard to this story. Since I live near Philadelphia and have been following it, and since I'm actually from Lancaster (where some the protestors were from):

I listened to an interview with the DA's office. For those of you that don't know, DA Lynne Abraham is highly respected in this area. In an interview with morning talk radio host Michael Smerconish (author of the book "Flying Blind"--a look at undue political correctness and how it affects our airline security), a different story is told. Smerconish, a conservative, ended up taking the city's side.

Apparently, these protests were not peaceful at all. They had bull horns, screaming intimidating things at the attendees of the "out fest." They also refused to follow police orders. I'm not sure we can trust the video completely, because I don't see how it can show everything that happened.

You know what side I would normally come down on here. I also do think that the charge of ethnic intimidation is absurd. That being said, there is apparently a lot more to this story. I suppose we'll find out more as time goes on.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #28 of 52
SDW:

I would be interested in reading an account different from the popular portrayal. Do you have links?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #29 of 52
Thread Starter 
I think even they admitted the bullhorns and disobeying the police -- the third time they asked them to move. I don't think the documentary maker is in bed with Repent America -- so it should show the truth of what happened. (But if they broke the law, they need their pee pees wacked.)


What is so troubling is the assitant DA's comments and the '47 years' --- which makes this whole thing stink to high heaven.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #30 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Well, it would be nice if anyone knew what they were talking about with regard to this story. Since I live near Philadelphia and have been following it, and since I'm actually from Lancaster (where some the protestors were from):

I listened to an interview with the DA's office. For those of you that don't know, DA Lynne Abraham is highly respected in this area. In an interview with morning talk radio host Michael Smerconish (author of the book "Flying Blind"--a look at undue political correctness and how it affects our airline security), a different story is told. Smerconish, a conservative, ended up taking the city's side.

Apparently, these protests were not peaceful at all. They had bull horns, screaming intimidating things at the attendees of the "out fest." They also refused to follow police orders. I'm not sure we can trust the video completely, because I don't see how it can show everything that happened.

You know what side I would normally come down on here. I also do think that the charge of ethnic intimidation is absurd. That being said, there is apparently a lot more to this story. I suppose we'll find out more as time goes on.

I respect you a great deal for adding this to the thread even though the particulars run counter to what you might have preferred.

I agree that charges of "ethnic intimidation" seem crazy. The trouble with over-reaching on this kind of stuff is that it damages the legitimacy of actual instances of abuse.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #31 of 52
Too bad Al Frankin wasn't there to tackle someone.
post #32 of 52
I used to live in Philly and there is very little respect for free speech rights by the local government. During the celebrations of the 200th anniversary of the Constitution anyone with strong political views was prohibited from speaking at the "free speech" podium. Take a look at the record of the Philly police during the 2000 RNC.
post #33 of 52
The 47 years doesn't mean shit really - I mean it isn't very hard to get charged with a crime and face a lot of possible prison time but everyone knows you aren't actually going to do 47 years even if you were convicted on all accounts.

It seems like these people got charged with quite a few different things and then when you add that up with 5 people - It isn't very hard to come up with 47 possible years.
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by PeePeeSee
The 47 years doesn't mean shit really - I mean it isn't very hard to get charged with a crime and face a lot of possible prison time but everyone knows you aren't actually going to do 47 years even if you were convicted on all accounts.

It seems like these people got charged with quite a few different things and then when you add that up with 5 people - It isn't very hard to come up with 47 possible years.

I think you are missing the point. It isn't so much about the 47 years (which I think everyone agrees is silly and unlikely to happen). It is the getting arrested and charged, period. In the end it won't matter if they get no formal punishment at all. The "chilling" factor that can be created by arresting someone for reasonably (even if offensively) excerising their consitutional right...on the public square. While attending a taxpayer funded (or partially so) event.
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
I respect you a great deal for adding this to the thread even though the particulars run counter to what you might have preferred.

I too value the clear integrity shown by sdw2001 in said post.

Integrity is what people of all sorts should strive to uphold.

PERIOD.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #36 of 52
Thread Starter 
...an update I caught at World Magazine's blog:

Quote:
No teasin, Inquirers got reason


The Philadelphia Inquirer published a surprisingly reasonable staff editorial today, decrying the over-the-top felony charges of four Christians who non-violently protested a gay-pride block party in Philadelphia last October. The article called District Attorney Lynne M. Abrahams prosecution for criminal conspiracy, hate crimes and incitement to riot absurd. At the same time, it scolded the Repent America protestors for touting their homosexuality is a sin message via bullhorns and signs such as God abhors you. Many martyr-seeking Christians have failed to embrace such a fair and balanced position.


Link (free subscription required)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #37 of 52
I read this article earlier today about Christians in Iceland. May or may not be relevant.

I found it upsetting.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #38 of 52
Thread Starter 

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I found this much more upsetting.

I read that. I agree - infinitely more upsetting.

But in a completely different way.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I read this article earlier today about Christians in Iceland. May or may not be relevant.

I found it upsetting.

What did you find upsetting about it?
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