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Marriage, Homosexual Marriage, and other picture postcards - Page 2  

post #41 of 171
"Gone is the productive husband-wife bond defined by mutual sacrifice and cooperative labor, replaced by dual-careerist vistas of self-fulfillment and consumer satisfaction."

Just in terms of my own relationship this is just bullshit. I consider my "husband-wife bond" fully productive thanks very much! If it smells like FUD, and it looks like FUD, it's probably FUD :-D
Smile on mighty Jesus,
Spinal Meningitis got me down!
Smile on mighty Jesus,
Spinal Meningitis got me down!
post #42 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
I'm blown away by the unbelievable ignorance of what you are posting, dmz. Just taking the obvious ones:

As others have pointed out

WTF is this even supposed to mean? Should my wife stay at home even if she can make $100K-200K a year working in an office 8:30-5 10 minutes away from home? Should my mother not have worked when I was in school and there was little to do around the house, even though she had the flexibility to leave work whenever she needed to? What about my buddy's mother, president of a large organization? Was it wrong that his professor father stayed at home much of the day, working out an alternative schedule when necessary?

I could note couple after couple since almost no women I currently know are stay-at-home mothers, largely because there just isn't a reason to be one after a child is 3 or 4 yo. The fact is that in modern america, the kind of work available is not such that it prohibits educated women from working. There are many jobs where a schedule can be flexible or even where working from home is an easy option.

As for 'consumer satisfaction,' in my experience, family, friends, etc, there is a solid relationship between consumerism and stay-at-home mother. I wonder why.


giant, did you even read the article? I guess consumerism and selfishness aren't American problems. Come on.


groverat, I think you're beginning to beat about the bush. Those Family Reasearch Council stats come from, among other sources, the Justice Department and University of Chicago, among a good number of gay-oriented sources. They need answers -- but I don't believe they will be answered on this forum.

I think this has been argued as far as either of you are willing to go.


It's a new work week guys, and I've blown too much time here as it is.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #43 of 171
I asked for stats about gay marriage, not gay relationships. You did not provide.

Comparing heterosexual marriages to homosexual relationships is meaningless. If that is the standard then they need to compare heterosexual relationships to homosexual relationships.

And past that, what needs answering? I am the last person to beat around bushes, I assure you, it is you who needs to formulate an actual argument and not just allusions to non-existent statistics.

And you did not answer any of my questions in my previous post. If you would do that I would greatly appreciate it.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #44 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
giant, did you even read the article?

Of course not. I'm reading the quotes you posted which, unless they are meant as a joke, are totally insane and ignorant. From what you've posted here, it's clear that reading the article would give the same return as watching a freak show.
post #45 of 171
post #46 of 171
Homosexual men are people!?

NO!

dmz, quick find me some stats to tell me otherwise! FRC is preferred!
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #47 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
giant did say "shitty, ignorant thread"

I'm not prepared to follow your line of thinking that homosexuals are, in some degreee, not responsible for their own behavior. I'm really, really not prepared to dismiss the overseas numbers either, as Europe is so often held up as a standard for America to follow.

On the "basic rights as citizens".... Few here are even willing to consider the possibility that the rates of suicide and mental health disorder suggest that the gay lifestyle is abberant or harmful, so I don't think we can agree what these basic rights should be.

You want to know why gay people kill themselves? As a gay man let me tell you: we try to kill ourselves, mainly as teenagers, because of filthy trash like you constantly calling us "abberant," "sinful" and evil. Bigots like you are stained red with the blood of innocent gay teens.
post #48 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Homosexual men are people!?

NO!

dmz, quick find me some stats to tell me otherwise! FRC is preferred!



come on groverate, we should be able to at least talk about this without hyperbole.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #49 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
You want to know why gay people kill themselves? As a gay man let me tell you: we try to kill ourselves, mainly as teenagers, because of filthy trash like you constantly calling us "abberant," "sinful" and evil. Bigots like you are stained red with the blood of innocent gay teens.


First of all, I don't fit the definition of "bigot" -- I have my sin issues and so do you -- I don't pretend to be better than any other sinner, we are all created in the image of God. Second, suicide goes a little bit deeper than just self-deprication, it is the ultimate act of rebellion agianst God -- I don't see how something that should be as innocuous as 'love' exhibit that level of willfullness. I can't see that at all.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #50 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
First of all, I don't fit the definition of "bigot" -- I have my sin issues and so do you -- I don't pretend to be better than any other sinner, we are all created in the image of God. Second, suicide goes a little bit deeper than just self-deprication, it is the ultimate act of rebellion agianst God -- I don't see how something that should be as innocuous as 'love' exhibit that level of willfullness. I can't see that at all.

If you can't see it then you're willfully blind.

"Self-deprecation"? "The ultimate act of rebellion against God"? What kind of "Christian" smoothly moves past the unnecessary death of innocents with a few glib bible study chestnuts?

Gay teens are just coming to grips with there sexuality, just like straight teens. In most parts of the country, still, that means they must deal with the dawning realization that their god given sexual desires are regarded by their peers, parents and culture at large as ugly, deformed, hateful, shameful, and "an abomination in the eyes of the lord", a medieval prejudice perpetuated by people like you, DMZ.

The chaotic years of adolescence are difficult for anyone. Throw in the notion that you are a monster, and that you must either strenuously repress this major component of who you are or risk ridicule and abuse and it's surprising that as many gay people get through it as they do.

You claim as your sole source of moral authority the fact that the bible labels homosexuality a sin, and from this proceeds all this incredible damage. Yet, like so many of your "christian" brethren, you have no trouble with ignoring the things the bible labels as sin, or abomination, that would be inconvenient for you to avoid.

So you get to ally your personal distaste for homosexuality with a selective reading of the bible and come before us as a man of faith, calm and "forgiving" and anointed in Christ's blood.

I think it's disgusting, and it has nothing to do with Christ's teachings, and in some part of your heart you must know it.

You better pray hard that that whole "heaven and hell" deal is a crock, because what do you think god makes of people who contribute to the ongoing abuse of his children?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
post #51 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
First of all, I don't fit the definition of "bigot" -- I have my sin issues and so do you -- I don't pretend to be better than any other sinner, we are all created in the image of God. Second, suicide goes a little bit deeper than just self-deprication, it is the ultimate act of rebellion agianst God -- I don't see how something that should be as innocuous as 'love' exhibit that level of willfullness. I can't see that at all.

That's all very well, but 'sin' is a Christian notion. I don't believe there is such a thing as a 'sinner' at all. There are people who do good things and there are people who do bad things, and being homosexual has no influence at all on what kind of a person you are. Other than your taste in house music.

We can prove the existence of suicide but we can't prove the existence of God. Until we can, we should have anti-gay Christians ('bigots', if you will) either accept their share of the responsibility for driving young homosexual people to suicide, and try and square that with their Jesus when they die, or we should have them shut the fuck up and let the rest of us concentrate on trying to rid our society of discrimination like civilised human beings.
post #52 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
If you can't see it then you're willfully blind.

"Self-deprecation"? "The ultimate act of rebellion against God"? What kind of "Christian" smoothly moves past the unnecessary death of innocents with a few glib bible study chestnuts?

Gay teens are just coming to grips with there sexuality, just like straight teens. In most parts of the country, still, that means they must deal with the dawning realization that their god given sexual desires are regarded by their peers, parents and culture at large as ugly, deformed, hateful, shameful, and "an abomination in the eyes of the lord", a medieval prejudice perpetuated by people like you, DMZ.

The chaotic years of adolescence are difficult for anyone. Throw in the notion that you are a monster, and that you must either strenuously repress this major component of who you are or risk ridicule and abuse and it's surprising that as many gay people get through it as they do.

You claim as your sole source of moral authority the fact that the bible labels homosexuality a sin, and from this proceeds all this incredible damage. Yet, like so many of your "christian" brethren, you have no trouble with ignoring the things the bible labels as sin, or abomination, that would be inconvenient for you to avoid.

So you get to ally your personal distaste for homosexuality with a selective reading of the bible and come before us as a man of faith, calm and "forgiving" and anointed in Christ's blood.

I think it's disgusting, and it has nothing to do with Christ's teachings, and in some part of your heart you must know it.

You better pray hard that that whole "heaven and hell" deal is a crock, because what do you think god makes of people who contribute to the ongoing abuse of his children?

First of all, look into what Psychiatry has to say on the mindset of a person contemplating suicide. Tell me they haven't circled the wagons and have given up on working with their situation. No, in the end it's "my way".

Next, when "Will and Grace" and "American Pie" are the main course of American enterainment, don't give me this crap about the overwhelming medieval crush of Christian repression.

And lastly, don't try to reinvent the nature of Christianity for me, I'm well aware of the theology involved. When Christ equates lustfull thoughts with full-blown adultery, don't act as if He condones having the "freedom' to do as we please.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #53 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
That's all very well, but 'sin' is a Christian notion. I don't believe there is such a thing as a 'sinner' at all. There are people who do good things and there are people who do bad things, and being homosexual has no influence at all on what kind of a person you are. Other than your taste in house music.

We can prove the existence of suicide but we can't prove the existence of God. Until we can, we should have anti-gay Christians ('bigots', if you will) either accept their share of the responsibility for driving young homosexual people to suicide, and try and square that with their Jesus when they die, or we should have them shut the fuck up and let the rest of us concentrate on trying to rid our society of discrimination like civilised human beings.


You're contradicting yourself here. Either the concept of sin is real or you have a great number of gay teens who are not only suicidal, but inventing the legitmacy of the idea of their sinfullness as well.

And agian, calling the worlds biggest exporter of pornography a culture that is pushing homosexuals to suicide is a little screwy. If anything, you would logically expect the Christians to be suicidal.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #54 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
You're contradicting yourself here. Either the concept of sin is real or you have a great number of gay teens who are not only suicidal, but inventing the legitmacy of the idea of their sinfullness as well.

And agian, calling the worlds biggest exporter of pornography a culture that is pushing homosexuals to suicide is a little screwy. If anything, you would logically expect the Christians to be suicidal.

I think you are contradicting yourself:

The first half of your statement implies that the second half should not have a concept of sin within it, yet it does and so we are left with nothing. A ghost. Vapor.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #55 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I think you are contradicting yourself:

The first half of your statement implies that the second half should not have a concept of sin within it, yet it does and so we are left with nothing. A ghost. Vapor.

This is my point. From a pro-gay point of view you have people living under false (imginary) guit so badly, they kill themselves. And in smut central Christians are stull supposed to be providing this dangeours overidding peer pressure.

It's not that Christians are telling people what they don't want to hear, somehow that gets translated into forcing something on some else well beyond the act of simply listening.

That's just not believable.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #56 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
First of all, look into what Psychiatry has to say on the mindset of a person contemplating suicide. Tell me they haven't circled the wagons and have given up on working with their situation. No, in the end it's "my way".

This exchange started when you blithely regarded the elevated rate of adolescent gay suicide as evidence of the generally debased nature of the "gay lifestyle". Now you want to make sure we understand suicide to be a grave insult to god and an act of extreme self will. Somehow the suffering of people who are made out to be fundamentally broken by people just like you never enters the equation. All hail christian compassion.

Quote:
Next, when "Will and Grace" and "American Pie" are the main course of American enterainment, don't give me this crap about the overwhelming medieval crush of Christian repression.

Human beings don't live in television shows. The fact that many people enjoy a cleverly written comedy wherein an extremely attractive gay man who never has sex trades witty remarks with an extremely attractive woman has exactly nothing to do with the circumstances of a gay fourteen year old in Oklahoma.

Quote:
And lastly, don't try to reinvent the nature of Christianity for me, I'm well aware of the theology involved. When Christ equates lustfull thoughts with full-blown adultery, don't act as if He condones having the "freedom' to do as we please.

Maybe if you concerned yourself less with the "theology involved" and more with simple compassion you could stop pretending that your bigotry has something to do with following Christ's teachings.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
post #57 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
This is my point. From a pro-gay point of view you have people living under false (imginary) guit so badly, they kill themselves. And in smut central Christians are stull supposed to be providing this dangeours overidding peer pressure.

The guilt's not imaginary, you [mild ad hom attack here]. The guilt's real enoughit's just unnecessary and pointless. American kids aren't hardwired from birth to accept Christian teaching any more than Indian kids are hardwired to be Hindus.
post #58 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
This exchange started when you blithely regarded the elevated rate of adolescent gay suicide as evidence of the generally debased nature of the "gay lifestyle". Now you want to make sure we understand suicide to be a grave insult to god and an act of extreme self will. Somehow the suffering of people who are made out to be fundamentally broken by people just like you never enters the equation. All hail christian compassion.



Human beings don't live in television shows. The fact that many people enjoy a cleverly written comedy wherein an extremely attractive gay man who never has sex trades witty remarks with an extremely attractive woman has exactly nothing to do with the circumstances of a gay fourteen year old in Oklahoma.



Maybe if you concerned yourself less with the "theology involved" and more with simple compassion you could stop pretending that your bigotry has something to do with following Christ's teachings.


This exchange started with Kirkland:
Quote:
Bigots like you are stained red with the blood of innocent gay teens.

you are being disingenous when you leave this fact out.

....beyond that, you want to ignore the state of popular American culture, and misrepresent accepted mainstream Christian theology. There's nowhere to go in this discussion if you insist on inventing overwhelming peer-pressure by a group with invented motives and theology.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #59 of 171
It wasn't me. A big boy did it and ran away.
post #60 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
This is my point. From a pro-gay point of view you have people living under false (imginary) guit so badly, they kill themselves.



You are so blindly ignorant about what it's like to be a gay teenager, your blasé attitude makes me want to wretch. You're a truly evil person.

Quote:
It's not that Christians are telling people what they don't want to hear, somehow that gets translated into forcing something on some else well beyond the act of simply listening.

That's just not believable.

I grew up in a vaguely religious household, but even then the thought of being gay was so laden with condemnation and "wrongness" that when I was twelve years old, and I realized I was gay, I immediately tried to bury that part of myself. I spent my entire teenage years forcing down and denying a core facet of my humanity. And the more I tried to deny it, the more it became harder to do so, and the more terrified I became of slipping.

Constant fear of rejection became an inescapable part of my life. It became so overwhelming that I began avoiding contact with some friends. Panic attacks became increasingly common. And, yes, eventually, one night I was so terrified of being kicked out of my home by my parents, of being abandoned by my friends, that I tried to kill myself.

At least half the gay people I know have similar stories. One of them grew up in a conservative Christian home, and became so self-loathing about his sexuality that he stopped eating and almost died from anorexia. Another was caught by his parents kissing another boy, and sent to a "Christian" counselor who used electric shocks and aversion therapy to try to "fix" him.

You say this doesn't happen? I say you don't know a god damn thing about the world.
post #61 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
And agian, calling the worlds biggest exporter of pornography a culture that is pushing homosexuals to suicide is a little screwy. If anything, you would logically expect the Christians to be suicidal.

Yet gay teens are the leading risk group for suicide in this country. Perhaps your understanding of the world is as twisted as your filthy views on religion.
post #62 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
Yet gay teens are the leading risk group for suicide in this country. Perhaps your understanding of the world is as twisted as your filthy views on religion.

There's a lot of hatred there, Kirkland. I can't particpate in it -- I'm done here.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #63 of 171
Flee flee...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #64 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
There's a lot of hatred there, Kirkland. I can't particpate in it -- I'm done here.

You spew your hatred as normalized, mainstream christian values. You bizarrely claim that the results of your world view have no real effect on the objects of your vitriol, and that when they wither under the sustained hatred of "christian" charity, it's evidence of their disturbed character.

But you can't "participate" in anger being trained at you. You, of course, are blameless. You ooze piety.

Really, a shameful display of hypocrisy.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
post #65 of 171
Kirkland:

If you cannot tone down the personal attacks I will tone them down for you. I do not care if you are angry or even justifiably angry; (1) there are rules to follow here and (2) saying a poster is a "truly evil person" is not only simplistic and ludicrous it is not constructive.

Take a deep breath and never post when you are angry.

Further, I welcome any poster who objects to a post by any other poster to private message or e-mail me immediately. I cannot read everything immediately and I would definitely welcome the help in cleaning up the forums.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #66 of 171
Thread Starter 
dp

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #67 of 171
And the cowardly Christian bigot continues to refuse to engage my own personal story. Typical.

People like DMZ make me ashamed to attend a Christian church.

How many gay teens did you drive to suicide this week, DMZ? Jesus don't love ya unless you give him lots of faggots to fuel the fires of hell.
post #68 of 171
Kirkland,

Dude... Please calm down, your insights are worth more than your anger...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #69 of 171
There are holes in dmz's logic so large you could drive a truck through them.

Attack ideas and logic, not people.
Demand answers to questions.

Follow the rules.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #70 of 171
Quote:
Second, suicide goes a little bit deeper than just self-deprication, it is the ultimate act of rebellion agianst God -- I don't see how something that should be as innocuous as 'love' exhibit that level of willfullness. I can't see that at all.

Have you ever known someone suicidal or in severe depression?

Quote:
you are being disingenous when you leave this fact out.

....beyond that, you want to ignore the state of popular American culture,

America is not a uniform culture, with one set of values and morals. (exhibit A: dichotomous election result (couldn't resist )). You seem to be suggesting that popular American culture has no problem with openness regarding sexuality, therefore it shouldn't be a problem for homosexual young adults to reveal their sexuality. This ignores that the opinions of the USA's populace on homosexuality are far from homogenous.
Stoo
Stoo
post #71 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by Stoo
Have you ever known someone suicidal or in severe depression?



America is not a uniform culture, with one set of values and morals. (exhibit A: dichotomous election result (couldn't resist )). You seem to be suggesting that popular American culture has no problem with openness regarding sexuality, therefore it shouldn't be a problem for homosexual young adults to reveal their sexuality. This ignores that the opinions of the USA's populace on homosexuality are far from homogenous.

He also is assuming "that popular American culture has no problem with openness regarding sexuality." That is an erroneous assumption, not simply for that subset that thinks homosexuals are simply in the wrong frame of mind, but also for the vast majority of the population.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #72 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Stoo
Have you ever known someone suicidal or in severe depression?



America is not a uniform culture, with one set of values and morals. (exhibit A: dichotomous election result (couldn't resist )). You seem to be suggesting that popular American culture has no problem with openness regarding sexuality, therefore it shouldn't be a problem for homosexual young adults to reveal their sexuality. This ignores that the opinions of the USA's populace on homosexuality are far from homogenous.


....ever watch someone put a loaded pistol in their mouth?

Cultural norms in America include aversions to many different things. There are plenty of people who act out in society, who feel the need to distance themselves through their choices, who feel the need to run counter to the culture or just to follow their own path -- but don't seem to show any ill effects -- at least when it involves suicide. If you look at the 1960s or the 1920s for that matter you will see that American culture is built on differences, with a great many people who want the maximum épater les bourgeois that their differences deliver. Looking at the Roman Catholics, Blacks, Jews, and the Irish over the years you consistantly find that people overcame prejudice without resorting to suicide.

In a modern society, with modern health care, there is no excuse for suicide, and in no way can you place the blame for someone choosing to take their own life outside that individual -- suicide is violence against one's self. If these suicide victims turned their murder instead to those around them, would they still be equally "blameless"?

In reality, all of this boils down to a very simple question of freedom, the freedom to BE a homosexual.
Quote:
from: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/6/hart.htm
from at least the time of Plato through the high Middle Agesthe Western understanding of human freedom was inseparable from an understanding of human nature: to be free was to be able to flourish as the kind of being one was, so as to attain the ontological good towards which ones nature was oriented (i.e., human excellence, charity, the contemplation of God, and so on). For this reason, the movement of the will was always regarded as posterior to the object of its intentions, as something wakened and moved by a desire for rational lifes proper telos, and as something truly free only insofar as it achieved that end towards which it was called. To choose awry, thenthrough ignorance or maleficence or corrupt longingwas not considered a manifestation of freedom, but of slavery to the imperfect, the deficient, the privative, the (literally) subhuman. Liberty of choice was only the possibility of freedom, not its realization, and a society could be considered just only insofar as it allowed for and aided in the cultivation of virtue.

When fully considering the question of gay suicide, there must be some attention paid to the possibility that homosexual BEHAVIOR is outside the way in "which ones nature was oriented" and that the guilt that drives those to self-murder is coming not from without, but from within -- and, as Francis Thompson penned about the "Hound of Heaven":

Quote:
I fled Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
Up vistaed hopes I sped;
And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmed fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat - and a Voice beat
More instant than the Feet -
"All things betray thee, who betrayest Me."

....and I believe in the last line of that stanza is the answer.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #73 of 171
So we're back to gay people "choosing" their sexual orientation, apparently just to be contrary.

But in their hearts they know that what they've "chosen" is in defiance of God, hence, elevated suicide rates.

And how do they know they're in defiance of God? People like you keep telling them so.

Really, the double bind-- we must keep telling homosexuals that they are diseased, and if they show evidence of physiological trauma in the face of such constant reprobation, it stands as evidence of their disease-- can only be described as "vicious".

Debased. Dishonest. The working of a diseased mind. The sublimation of a fundamental cruelness made all the more nauseating by its insistence on cloaking itself in talk of god's love.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
post #74 of 171
Thread Starter 
Asking someone to consider the possibility that the gay life runs counter to human nature doesn't amount to calling gays "less than human" or "diseased". Those kinds of statements just aren't there.

Unless you're saying that ANYONE considering suicide shouldn't seek consuling. (?)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #75 of 171
Since gay people are born gay and cannot change their orientation, clearly your understanding of what human nature consists of is severely limited.
post #76 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
If you look at the 1960s or the 1920s for that matter you will see that American culture is built on differences, with a great many people who want the maximum épater les bourgeois that their differences deliver. Looking at the Roman Catholics, Blacks, Jews, and the Irish over the years you consistantly find that people overcame prejudice without resorting to suicide.


The difference here is that those groups that you mention were not lonely individuals but part of a society of their own, living with others of the same oppressed group and had each other for support. Young gay men, I imagine, feel very alone in the world and feel that they have no one to turn to for that much needed support. Not their parents, or friends and certinaly not your god, who they are told views how they feel, and how they are as against nature.

I generalise of course, but the point stands.
Smile on mighty Jesus,
Spinal Meningitis got me down!
Smile on mighty Jesus,
Spinal Meningitis got me down!
post #77 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
If you look at the 1960s or the 1920s for that matter you will see that American culture is built on differences, with a great many people who want the maximum épater les bourgeois that their differences deliver. Looking at the Roman Catholics, Blacks, Jews, and the Irish over the years you consistantly find that people overcame prejudice without resorting to suicide.

You, of course, have two conflicting assertions here:
(1) - They choose homosexuality to "shock the bourgeois" (an extremely condescending and simplistic idea).
(2) - The lifestyle they choose to accomplish this leads to suicide.

Why would one choose suicide?

dmz, you are the one beating around the bush, you draw much broader strokes with your ideas than you are willing to come right out and say. Unless you truly believe that there is no psychological factor and it is solely the purview of your God that decides arbitrarily that defying His will leads to suicide.

Your puzzling, contradictory and inflammatory logic is the cause of most of the consternation we are seeing in this thread; in addition to your unwillingness to answer simple questions.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #78 of 171
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
You, of course, have two conflicting assertions here:
(1) - They choose homosexuality to "shock the bourgeois" (an extremely condescending and simplistic idea).
(2) - The lifestyle they choose to accomplish this leads to suicide.

Why would one choose suicide?

dmz, you are the one beating around the bush, you draw much broader strokes with your ideas than you are willing to come right out and say. Unless you truly believe that there is no psychological factor and it is solely the purview of your God that decides arbitrarily that defying His will leads to suicide.

Your puzzling, contradictory and inflammatory logic is the cause of most of the consternation we are seeing in this thread; in addition to your unwillingness to answer simple questions.

I don't know how deep I care to dip into this here. Especially with some folks claiming disagreement = hate, however I don't think anyone claimed homosexuality lead exclusively to suicide. It could simply increase the risk for that factor.

By the same logic, anyone who experiments with drug use must want to be dead or at minimum, an addict. I don't think anyone ever grew up claiming they wanted to be an addict. As a society we are becoming more compassionate toward those who have abused drugs and more tolerant of drug use but we still do not endorse it likely because of the very bad results for some.

I would also have to take issue with the claim that someone won't lead a shocking lifestyle just because it might have a negative outcome. The cultural landscape is littered with people who attempted to shock us or capture our attention and have suffered impairment or even death because of their actions. Does anyone doubt that Arnold had a heart valve replaced because of his steriod use? Do we seriously doubt much different from the hundreds of prematurely dying or half-crippled people that were once called football players? When we see a mentally impaired boxer, do we think that they somehow didn't choose what they did? What about smoking?

When musicians or actors die from drug overdoses or enjoy a lifestyle that appears suicidal yet shocking, do we question their ability to choose it?

The point is my post doesn't resolve whether homosexuality is genetic or a choice. It also doesn't resolve whether it should be endorsed even if found to be genetic. However it does address the fallacy of claiming that people couldn't choose it simply because it might increase the odds of a negative consequence. People weigh their odds and make their choices in lots of areas. Just because we don't like the odds doesn't mean they really didn't make a choice. There are loads of people who would never pop a steroid pill, try some pot, or light up a cigarette. Yet there are plenty who toss caution and harmful effects to the wind and decide they don't mind the odds even if those odds include severe harm or death.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #79 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
You, of course, have two conflicting assertions here:
(1) - They choose homosexuality to "shock the bourgeois" (an extremely condescending and simplistic idea).
(2) - The lifestyle they choose to accomplish this leads to suicide.

Why would one choose suicide?

dmz, you are the one beating around the bush, you draw much broader strokes with your ideas than you are willing to come right out and say. Unless you truly believe that there is no psychological factor and it is solely the purview of your God that decides arbitrarily that defying His will leads to suicide.

Your puzzling, contradictory and inflammatory logic is the cause of most of the consternation we are seeing in this thread; in addition to your unwillingness to answer simple questions.


The two example of ostracized groups, give an examples of how various groups have coped with what gays expeince today, to one degree or another. On the issue of suicide there are two parts to that. The first is that suicide should never be an option, not in a society with consuling services and medical options. Second, the lifestyle only intiates the cultural friction, suicide is a reaction to that friction -- and I think that the presuppostions of the individual's conceptions of "freedom" are suspect -- not the lifestyle per se. Freedom to kill oneself should never appear on their radar.

As an aside, there seems to be some transferrance to me of some sort of phobia about homosexuality -- that is unfair prejudice. My calling homosexual acts sin doesn't mean that it's code for something darker and deeper that I'm 'just not saying'. It may be easier to classify what I'm saying along with, lets face it, what both you and Kirkland probably get an boat load of living in Texas, but in the case of Christians who don't do 'fag' jokes, it's not fair and just not true.

(and I spent 10 years in Texas, I know what I'm talking about)

This is getting too contentious, you guys will have to beat me up in abstentia.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #80 of 171
It is both interesting and telling that you do not mind ratcheting up the rhetoric against homosexuals but when you are put under the microscope it gets "too contentious" and you must leave. Very telling.

Quote:
My calling homosexual acts sin doesn't mean that it's code for something darker and deeper that I'm 'just not saying'.

In a discussion with people who do not share your faith your waffling style leads to confusion and anger, especially when you ignore questions directed to you.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
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