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Site of Babylon destroyed

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
The site of ancient Babylon is one of the world's most important archaeological sites, if not the most important.

Which makes it strange that US forces decided to base their camp and centre of operations right on top of it. The damage is extensive and may not be reparable according to a report issued by the British Museum.

Quote:
The report states that prehistoric brickwork has been crushed beneath military vehicles, precious stonework used to fill sandbags and important historical sites damaged by newly dug trenches.

"This is tantamount to establishing a military camp around the Great Pyramid in Egypt or around Stonehenge in Britain," says John Curtis, keeper of the department of ancient near east at the British Museum in London, UK, and author of the report. "The damage caused by the military camp is a further blow for the cultural heritage of Iraq."

Brick figures on the Ishtar Gate, one of the most precious monuments from antiquity, are reported to have been scarred by repeated looting attempts. The Processional Way, a 2600-year-old brick pavement, has also been crushed beneath heavy vehicles and bricks stamped by King Nebuchanezzar II, of a similar age, have been scattered at the site.

We are suffering under a generation of Philistines and Barbarians.

I remember years ago I was sitting with some Afghan friends as the news of the Taleban's destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas broke.

We cried for a while with the unbelievable shock of it but soon there was anger. My friend said "the US will sort them out - now the world can see they are barbarians".

But the US never sorted them out and now they are doing the same.

And there is no shock or crying anymore. Not even surprise or much comment.

New Scientist
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 12
Call me crasy but don't ruins by their nature come pre-destroid, and if you have a choice, do you save human beings lifes or a 2000 year old brick?
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #3 of 12
How in the world you save human lives by destroying one of the most important sites in the world is beyond me.

Maybe you care to enlighten me (us)?
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #4 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by a_greer
Call me crasy but don't ruins by their nature come pre-destroid, and if you have a choice, do you save human beings lifes or a 2000 year old brick?

No, the archeological record is something that is left intact even if 'pre-destroyed' and not examined due to the fact that we may not have the technology at our disposal to do so most advantageously. Generally such sites are protected until such a time as our technology to record and preserve them improves.

I guess that even putting this aside, bringing gravel in from elsewhere, digging up 4000 year old roads and pouring military grade fuel all over the site probably doesn't do much for its integrity.

Save human beings or a 2000 year old brick....hmmm......

Is that really the choice....or perhaps more aptly, is that how you see the choice ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #5 of 12
So, you would compare and relate the Taliban pruposefully destroying historical artifacts and monuments because they were 'religiously offensive' to some US military commanders decision to setup camp near to/on top of a historical site? Sorry, I don't see the comparision.

I would have perhaps preferred to see your righteous rage over the willfull and purposeful destruction of antiquities and artifacts under Temple Mount. You know, where all evidence of a Jewish presence is being systematically destroyed for no other reason than religious bigotry and to cleanse the area of the jewish stain. It's been going on for years, yet nary a peep of outrage from those who care so deeply about history being preserved.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #6 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
So, you would compare and relate the Taliban pruposefully destroying historical artifacts and monuments because they were 'religiously offensive' to some US military commanders decision to setup camp near to/on top of a historical site?

No, I would relate the destruction of a historical site by a group of Philistines to the destruction of a historical site by a group of Philistines.

Quote:
Sorry, I don't see the comparision.

It doesn't surprise me somehow....

Quote:
I would have perhaps preferred to see your righteous rage over the willfull and purposeful destruction of antiquities and artifacts under Temple Mount.

You may have to wait a while for that....In the meantime I can offer righteous rage against false propaganda. Does that help ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #7 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No, I would relate the destruction of a historical site by a group of Philistines to the destruction of a historical site by a group of Philistines.

Ahh..ok. So motive has no place. So long as the US can be used as a whipping boy that is.



Quote:
Originally posted by segovius

You may have to wait a while for that....

It was meant rhetorically. Obviously, one couldn't expect you to express outrage over the willful destruction of jewish historical sites.
Destruction of buhdist statues to demonstrate religeous bigottry-outrage.
Damage to ancient Babylonian site because of possible incompetence or simply because of military convienience-outrage.
Destruction of the holiest site to jews and one of the most historically significant sites in the world in order to cleanse an area of evidence of a jewish presence simply out of ethnic and religious bigottry-no outrage, nor any expected.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #8 of 12
Quote:
Ahh..ok. So motive has no place. So long as the US can be used as a whipping boy that is.

Lack of respect for a culture can be just as problematic as open disdain for a culture.

Also, I do not see the point of dismissing this obvious travesty by attacking the motivations of an individual poster. It is childish and pointless.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #9 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Destruction of the holiest site to jews and one of the most historically significant sites in the world in order to cleanse an area of evidence of a jewish presence simply out of ethnic and religious bigottry-no outrage, nor any expected.

This doesn't make much sense....in your first post you cited destruction of Jewish artifacts and antiquities under Temple Mount - now you seem to have moved on to suggest the destruction is of Temple Mount itself.

This is vague if not actually contradictory but there are other problems with it:

1) You have provided no evidence of the antiquities destruction under the Mount and I have not heard of this - it is well known there is Israeli digging and expansion of tunnels under the haram ash Sharif which (by accident or design) are weakening the structure above and the Dome of the Rock in particular, but I take it you do not refer to this.

2) The 'holiest site to Jews' which you claim is being destroyed by Muslims is also one of the holiest sites to Muslims. I don't expect you to mention that but it does rather beg the question of why they would destroy it.

3) You have shown no evidence. None at all - just dubious reports and some rather dodgy extrapolation.

This thread is about Philistinism (for want of a better word) or, if you prefer, wilful or accidental abuse of all our human cultural heritage. It is not specific to one country or area and it is quite appropriate to widen the canvas from my original example.

Two things I would ask though:

a) you back it up with evidence so we can discuss.

b) we keep it out of any 'special interest' or partisan arena.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #10 of 12
I thought Babylon was NYC

Oh that Babylon!

j/k
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post #11 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
This doesn't make much sense....in your first post you cited destruction of Jewish artifacts and antiquities under Temple Mount - now you seem to have moved on to suggest the destruction is of Temple Mount itself.

I would consider the removal and destruction of artifacts of various periods from the site to be the destruction of the site. As in your original post, where the quote mentions the crushing of bricks and pavements, the destruction of parts of the site is the destruction of the site.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius


1) You have provided no evidence of the antiquities destruction under the Mount and I have not heard of this - it is well known there is Israeli digging and expansion of tunnels under the haram ash Sharif which (by accident or design) are weakening the structure above and the Dome of the Rock in particular, but I take it you do not refer to this.

It isn't surprising that you might not have heard of it, as mainstream media doesn't cover it much. You probably do know of the ongoing construction of a very large mosque on the site. The excavation of the archaeologically highly sensitive area involves bulldozers and dump trucks hauling tonnes of 'rubble' to garbage dumps.
Time Magazine
Archaeology Inst.
National Review
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius

2) The 'holiest site to Jews' which you claim is being destroyed by Muslims is also one of the holiest sites to Muslims. I don't expect you to mention that but it does rather beg the question of why they would destroy it.

Well, I guess if they only remove jewish artifacts then it isn't destruction.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius

This thread is about Philistinism (for want of a better word) or, if you prefer, wilful or accidental abuse of all our human cultural heritage. It is not specific to one country or area and it is quite appropriate to widen the canvas from my original example.

Two things I would ask though:

a) you back it up with evidence so we can discuss.

b) we keep it out of any 'special interest' or partisan arena.

Wonton destruction of historical artifacts and sites is reprehensible, regardless of who is doing it. I would personally, however classify those who do it out of ignorance or incompetence differently than those who do it solely out of racism, hatred or a desire to purify an area of religiously offensive ethnic artifacts.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #12 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Wonton destruction of historical artifacts and sites is reprehensible, regardless of who is doing it. I would personally, however classify those who do it out of ignorance or incompetence differently than those who do it solely out of racism, hatred or a desire to purify an area of religiously offensive ethnic artifacts.

Well, if this report is true then it needs to be condemned.

I would like to see an objective academic report - Israeli Universities are ok - rather than political sources.

The sad thing here I think is that antiquities and culture have been dragged into a battleground and used to support either side. Inevitable in this case I guess.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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