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Iraq Horror

post #1 of 58
Thread Starter 
This is a sobering series of images. There is really nothing else I cans say right now.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...far/html/1.stm
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post #2 of 58
Quote:
The statement also said that military officials extended their condolences for this "unfortunate incident" and were investigating.


Unfortunate incident????
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post #3 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Unfortunate incident????

Well, what else should they say?

Is it terrible? Yes.

Was it intentional (that they would kill part of a family)? Certainly not.
post #4 of 58
Bah.
It's not being covered by American media, so it never happened.
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post #5 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Bah.
It's not being covered by American media, so it never happened.

What is that supposed to mean (or imply)?
post #6 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
What is that supposed to mean (or imply)?

It can and does mean more than one thing - what do you think it implies?
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post #7 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
It can and does mean more than one thing - what do you think it implies?

I think you are implying that the American media is one-sided and that this is a critical news story that would shed some light on what is "really" happening.
post #8 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I think you are implying that the American media is one-sided and that this is a critical news story that would shed some light on what is "really" happening.

You would be somewhat correct. I'm not looking at this single story as all that critical, but as an example of what the American media manages to ignore on a consistent basis.

It is also meant to parody those who would claim that it indeed never happened, that it's a fabrication by foreign liberal media who hates America and/or despises our magnificent President, 'cause if it was true, we'd hear about it from Fox Noos.
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post #9 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
You would be somewhat correct. I'm not looking at this single story as all that critical, but as an example of what the American media manages to ignore on a consistent basis.

It is also meant to parody those who would claim that it indeed never happened, that it's a fabrication by foreign liberal media who hates America and/or despises our magnificent President, 'cause if it was true, we'd hear about it from Fox Noos.

Well, I certainly don't believe it has never happened. I do think it should be reported by American media. I think it is a tragedy. But I also think it needs to be viewed in context. I also think that it certainly doesn't somehow make the U.S. military into a bunch of careless morons.
post #10 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
What is that supposed to mean (or imply)?

Who are you and why can't you make a simple equation?

How many such stories happen daily that the American media are either forced to keep from the people (by overt or covert coercion, threat of boycott etc) or choose to keep from us out of ideological reasons (Sinclair Broadcasting, FOX etc)? Why is it the that people most directly involved in the War besides those actually there get the least information about what it is they are doing there?

Its realy simple: because if we knew the reality of what goes on then we would demand real reasons and real responsibility from our 'leaders'.


This sort of tragedy also is a result of terrible military planning: invading and occupying a country that in no way holds the same ettiquettes and customs as you without any real introduction to the troops on how that culture differs from yours . . . . a culture that takes its sense of propriety very seriously . . .
How did they prepare the future occupation forces?
by giving them a four-five page hand out that delineated some very basic cliches about the Arab world and history
and what the hell are they doing trying to stop a car at dusk using nothing but hand signals!!!
Has it never crossed their minds that people may be looking at the road or may have a car full of screaming children?!?!
Are they trying to both hide from potential bombers while sneeking up on drivers?
How many such stories have I read about?

Too many . . .

Now that I have a child nothing is more horrendous than to see images like those in this story . . . nothing!!!!
Bush should go to jail for this lie-based inncessant catastrophe!!!!

What are the American people putting up with this?!?!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #11 of 58
I hate to say this, next week is going to be a bloodbath. God bless the innocent...

As to the immediate topic at hand, our troops are in harms way (justified or not...) and these tragic mishaps are going to continue. I feel for the soldiers who kill innocent civilians by accident, I know what that feels like first hand, and I especially feel for the families of the victims.

No good will come out of Iraq for the so-called coalition.
You know, what's interesting about our country is that for years we were isolated from the world by two great oceans, and for a while we got a false sense of security as a result of that. We...
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You know, what's interesting about our country is that for years we were isolated from the world by two great oceans, and for a while we got a false sense of security as a result of that. We...
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post #12 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Who are you and why can't you make a simple equation?

How many such stories happen daily that the American media are either forced to keep from the people (by overt or covert coercion, threat of boycott etc) or choose to keep from us out of ideological reasons (Sinclair Broadcasting, FOX etc)? Why is it the that people most directly involved in the War besides those actually there get the least information about what it is they are doing there?

Its realy simple: because if we knew the reality of what goes on then we would demand real reasons and real responsibility from our 'leaders'.


This sort of tragedy also is a result of terrible military planning: invading and occupying a country that in no way holds the same ettiquettes and customs as you without any real introduction to the troops on how that culture differs from yours . . . . a culture that takes its sense of propriety very seriously . . .
How did they prepare the future occupation forces?
by giving them a four-five page hand out that delineated some very basic cliches about the Arab world and history
and what the hell are they doing trying to stop a car at dusk using nothing but hand signals!!!
Has it never crossed their minds that people may be looking at the road or may have a car full of screaming children?!?!
Are they trying to both hide from potential bombers while sneeking up on drivers?
How many such stories have I read about?

Too many . . .

Now that I have a child nothing is more horrendous than to see images like those in this story . . . nothing!!!!
Bush should go to jail for this lie-based inncessant catastrophe!!!!

What are the American people putting up with this?!?!

Look. Calm down. I understand, perfectly well, what a terrible thing this particular event is. But it has to be view in context of the overall situation. I'm not an apologist for this war...but it is unfair to take one situation and try to slant things in a particular way.
post #13 of 58
This isn't the first time this occurred.
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post #14 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
This isn't the first time this occurred.

I'm aware of that.

But tell me...how many times has it happened?
post #15 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I'm aware of that.

But tell me...how many times has it happened?

This is the second incident I am aware of being reported. The first was shortly after we invaded (perhaps after our "mission" "was" "accomplished") in which an entire family was laid to ruin.

Really, since we do not hear reports about foreigner deaths in Iraq (at least deaths of people we haven't directly trained and taken responsibility for), I don't know the answer...

So Chris, how many times has it happened?

Edit: Once is too many times.
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post #16 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
This is the second incident I am aware of being reported. The first was shortly after we invaded (perhaps after our "mission" "was" "accomplished") in which an entire family was laid to ruin.

Really, since we do not hear reports about foreigner deaths in Iraq (at least deaths of people we haven't directly trained and taken responsibility for), I don't know the answer...

So Chris, how many times has it happened?

Edit: Once is too many times.

The only incidents that I know of are the one's you've mentioned. Since I am not going to speculate about others, for the moment I'll assume these are the only ones. Anyone with facts to the contrary is welcome to refute my assumption.

Now...is once too many? Yes. Terrible. But in both cases, the circumstances were understandable. Terrible, but understandable. Now why don't we direct some of this righteous indignation towards the terrorist in Iraq that are almost daily, deliberately killing people (including civilians).
post #17 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I'm aware of that.

But tell me...how many times has it happened?

Our military has killed some 15,365-17,582 Iraqi civilians during the course of the war (IBC). You tell me, Chris, how many times "unfortunate incidents" such as this have happened.
post #18 of 58
We have every reason in the world to believe that our troops should be held to a standard that is above the expected level of decorum of the terrorists.

And this is not to say that every one of the civilians killed by a terrorist is not tragic, except that the US military should go out of its way to avoid the deaths of civilians at their hands.

Why do you assume that there are only two incidents? Why not make no assumptions and say that there are at least two incidents? There is no reason to say that there are only two.
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post #19 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
We have every reason in the world to believe that our troops should be held to a standard that is above the expected level of decorum of the terrorists.

Yes...and this kind of situation is in now way, shape or form comparable to the deliberate terrorist killings that are occuring almost daily.

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
And this is not to say that every one of the civilians killed by a terrorist is not tragic, except that the US military should go out of its way to avoid the deaths of civilians at their hands.

And they do.

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Why do you assume that there are only two incidents? Why not make no assumptions and say that there are at least two incidents? There is no reason to say that there are only two.

Because there are not any reports of any others.
post #20 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Well, what else should they say?

Is it terrible? Yes.

Was it intentional (that they would kill part of a family)? Certainly not.


Who are you and why do you always answer to question not posed to you?

Sure it was intentional. You shoot, with an intent in your mind. Your intent is to kill/stop whatever you shot at.

Please don't defend the undefendable. I've had enough of this sh!t.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #21 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Who are you and why do you always answer to question not posed to you?

The question was posed generally (from what I can tell of your post). It didn't appear to be posed to anyone specific. Next time maybe you should. I you don't want people replying to your posts, you needn't make any. Simple.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Sure it was intentional. You shoot, with an intent in your mind. Your intent is to kill/stop whatever you shot at.

Don't be obtuse. I said they didn't intend to kill a FAMILY. Surely they assumed they were under YET ANOTHER car bomb attack. It is defendable. They were protecting themselves. They clearly didn't know it was a family until after the car stopped.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Please don't defend the undefendable. I've had enough of this sh!t.

If you've had enough you are welcome to leave.
post #22 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
[B]The question was posed generally (from what I can tell of your post). It didn't appear to be posed to anyone specific. Next time maybe you should. I you don't want people replying to your posts, you needn't make any. Simple.



It was a rhetorical question. They're not meant to be answered. Simpler.



Quote:
Don't be obtuse. I said they didn't intend to kill a FAMILY. Surely they assumed they were under YET ANOTHER car bomb attack. It is defendable. They were protecting themselves. They clearly didn't know it was a family until after the car stopped.

Exactly how do you protect yourself from something that wasn't attacking you?

So now if they're in the highway, and see thousands of cars passing by, do they just shoot randomly at any car? Because, according to your logic, they can assume that any of those cars could be YET ANOTHER car bomb. Sounds iffy to me.


Quote:
If you've had enough you are welcome to leave.

I didn't know you were the owner of this forum. If so, then you have a right to tell me to leave. If not, you can leave yourself.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #23 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Exactly how do you protect yourself from something that wasn't attacking you?

So now if they're in the highway, and see thousands of cars passing by, do they just shoot randomly at any car? Because, according to your logic, they can assume that any of those cars could be YET ANOTHER car bomb. Sounds iffy to me.

Well, if that was the situation your argument would have some merit. According to the facts reported so far...it doesn't. The care was driving at/toward a checkpoint. They were given a signal to stop. They didn't. They were given a warning shot. They still didn't stop. The situation is not at all like you have described it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
I didn't know you owned this forum. If so, then you have a right to tell me to leave. If not, you can leave yourself.

I don't. I didn't. Oh...now you are telling me to leave.

I simply pointed out that if you were sick of this ####...no one was compelling you to stay.
post #24 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
[B]Well, if that was the situation your argument would have some merit. According to the facts reported so far...it doesn't. The care was driving at/toward a checkpoint. They were given a signal to stop. They didn't. They were given a warning shot. They still didn't stop. The situation is not at all like you have described it.


...according to who? The US military?



Quote:
I don't. I didn't. Oh...now you are telling me to leave.

I simply pointed out that if you were sick of this ####...no one was compelling you to stay.

You know what I'm sick of? People justifying murder with anything they can.

This is the case today, and this was the case before. I've no doubt it will be tomorrow too.
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post #25 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Well, I certainly don't believe it has never happened. I do think it should be reported by American media.

I never meant to imply that you personally (or any other individual specifically) were "those who would claim.." I don't really consider you a member of this board's Blind Boy Bush Booster Brigade - and if you were, you would probably be arguing about how it would be unpatriotic for American media to report on such a story.

Quote:
I think it is a tragedy. But I also think it needs to be viewed in context. I also think that it certainly doesn't somehow make the U.S. military into a bunch of careless morons.

I don't consider most soldiers on the street to be "careless morons", nor do I think I've said anything to imply that viewpoint (asking me about the civilian leadership and the high level military people playing yes-man right now might get you a very different answer). But again, I am curious - what do YOU think this makes the US military into?
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post #26 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Now why don't we direct some of this righteous indignation towards the terrorist in Iraq that are almost daily, deliberately killing people (including civilians).

Let's ask ourselves how many of those civilians the terrorists would have killed if we had listened to 95% of the rest of the world (not to mention a significant percentage of us Americans) and never invaded in the first place.
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post #27 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
...according to who? The US military?

I am willing to give benefit of the doubt at this point. There is nothing that tells me I shouldn't. If you have evidence otherwise, please present it. At this point you have no reason to assume that the events did not happen as described.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
You know what I'm sick of? People justifying murder with anything they can.

Do you not think that the circumstances surrounding the event have any bearing on it?
post #28 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Let's ask ourselves how many of those civilians the terrorists would have killed if we had listened to 95% of the rest of the world (not to mention a significant percentage of us Americans) and never invaded in the first place.

This is a good question...but not really answerable. What we do know is they are killing people now. Is their killing justified by the American invasion? Some will argue yes. I would say no. They are terrorists plain and simple. They seem quite opposed to anything that might improve the conditions of Iraq...for example through a new government and free elections.
post #29 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
I don't consider most soldiers on the street to be "careless morons", nor do I think I've said anything to imply that viewpoint (asking me about the civilian leadership and the high level military people playing yes-man right now might get you a very different answer). But again, I am curious - what do YOU think this makes the US military into?

I think it was an accident. Not intentional (in the sense that they were going around trying to kill civilians). I think, from the report so far, it is understandable. Very sad and unfortunate? Of course. It makes them human.
post #30 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
[B]This is a good question...but not really answerable. What we do know is they are killing people now. Is their killing justified by the American invasion? Some will argue yes. I would say no.

I'm not speaking of justification, I'm speaking of cause-and-effect. If we weren't Occupiers, there wouldn't be a Resistance. And if their was a Resistance, it would right now be fighting Saddam and not an occupying foreign power.
Quote:
They are terrorists plain and simple. They seem quite opposed to anything that might improve the conditions of Iraq...for example through a new government and free elections.

Perhaps they are opposed to the US making the choice for them, by force? Perhaps they are not as sure as you are that the government set up by the US is the best choice for their country?
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post #31 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Of course. It makes them human.

Hmm. Lots (most?? ALL?) of us are "human", but neither you nor I covered any children in their parent's blood and brains this week. I was looking for something a bit more specific and I'm sure you can do better. I'll toss out a few and you can join in anytime you are ready.

It makes them:

- Emotionally scarred for life, assuming none of them were one of the (hopefully very) rare sickos that actually enjoys this (see shooting a wounded prisoner for "playing dead" and prison torture for examples).

- Hated forever by the children who they emotionally scarred for life.

- Instigators for the US to be hated for life by said children.

- Enablers of terrorist recruiting, as I'm sure this story will be told to many Iraqis and will move some of them from bystanders to participants in the insurgency.
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post #32 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
I'm not speaking of justification, I'm speaking of cause-and-effect. If we weren't Occupiers, there wouldn't be a Resistance. And if their was a Resistance, it would right now be fighting Saddam and not an occupying foreign power.

Well these are not anti-Sadam people, they are pro-Sadam. And if they wanted to fight a resistance against Sadam...where were they for the past 25 years?

Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Perhaps they are opposed to the US making the choice for them, by force? Perhaps they are not as sure as you are that the government set up by the US is the best choice for their country?

Well, first, is it the U.S. that has even given them a chance by kicking Sadam's tyrannical butt out of there. Second, this is true (personally, I have concerns about the type of government being setup there). But it appear that now there might be a better approach than terrorist tactics.

I'll say it again. I am not going to be an apologist for this war. Though I do agree that Sadam being removed from power is a good thing (in the long run). They planned poorly for the peace. Dumb. But I will also not allow myself to assume that this terrible and unfortunate incident that happened today (or yesterday) is a complete discredit of the war. We are there now. That cannot be undone. Pulling out would be a worse mistake at this point...that should be clear to everyone. It would leave a power vacuum. I believe that we were lied to about the reasons for war. But that is over with. We're in it now. We must deal with the situation as it exists and move forward.

This thing was terrible. Quite sad. But it is also understandable given the circumstances that exist over there.
post #33 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Hmm. Lots (most?? ALL?) of us are "human", but neither you nor I covered any children in their parent's blood and brains this week. I was looking for something a bit more specific and I'm sure you can do better. I'll toss out a few and you can join in anytime you are ready.

It makes them:

- Emotionally scarred for life, assuming none of them were one of the (hopefully very) rare sickos that actually enjoys this (see shooting a wounded prisoner for "playing dead" and prison torture for examples).

- Hated forever by the children who they emotionally scarred for life.

- Instigators for the US to be hated for life by said children.

- Enablers of terrorist recruiting, as I'm sure this story will be told to many Iraqis and will move some of them from bystanders to participants in the insurgency.

It seems clear that you are unable to have a reasonable discussion about this. I'm done.
post #34 of 58
I don't think we can know for sure how many insurgents are Saddam loyalists, and how many are simply fighting what they view as an occupation of their country bringing about widespread destruction of their infrastructure. I think I know what the Bush admin. would like us to believe, but I'm not sure about either their motives or their honesty, given what they did to get us into this situation in the first place.
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post #35 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
It seems clear that you are unable to have a reasonable discussion about this. I'm done.

It's no less reasonable than saying that the soldiers' actions make them "human". Sorry, but that's a weak answer - how does it make them any more human than before their actions, or any more human than the rest of us humans?
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post #36 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
[B]I am willing to give benefit of the doubt at this point. There is nothing that tells me I shouldn't. If you have evidence otherwise, please present it. At this point you have no reason to assume that the events did not happen as described.

There are quite a few things that the military did not tell the truth about; namely Abu Ghraib and Fallujah. They were forced to carry out 'investigations' only months after they found out, and only after mediatic pressure on them. A wash-off. Cover-up. These things tend to make me disbelief them.



Quote:
Do you not think that the circumstances surrounding the event have any bearing on it?

I don't think the explanation is true at all. In the first picture posted in that link, its quite clear that its not night yet, and there is sufficient daylight to be able to tell, from a modest distance that there were children in the car.

I doubt suicide bombers use children aged 7 or whatever to commit suicide attacks.

But I'll say it again; when it comes to Iraq, I don't trust this military at all. They have repeatadly shown that they are not to be trusted, and they have repeatadly killed civilians for no reason [re: Falluja mosque].

I'm sorry, but I won't give them the benefit of the doubt. Not with this kind of behaviour.
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post #37 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Well these are not anti-Sadam people, they are pro-Sadam. And if they wanted to fight a resistance against Sadam...where were they for the past 25 years?.

They were being killed by Saddam.

Now he has gone they can operate with impunity and turn their attention to other matters - one of which would be revenging themselves on ex-Saddam officials and supporters.

Alawi for instance.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #38 of 58
Thread Starter 
I don't post this to blame the soldiers involved. They probably felt that they had no choice.
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post #39 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
They were being killed by Saddam.

Now he has gone they can operate with impunity and turn their attention to other matters - one of which would be revenging themselves on ex-Saddam officials and supporters.

And who do they have to thank for that I wonder?
post #40 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
And who do they have to thank for that I wonder?

That's not the issue - don't try to divert it.

You were claiming these people are pro-Saddam, I am claiming they are not.

Now do you accept that or not ?

If no, post up some supporting evidence, if yes then say so.

Whichever it is let's not go off at a tangent.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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