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Apple Unveils Faster, More Affordable PowerBooks - Page 4

post #121 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Neruda
I second that. I was looking at my friend's laptop in class the other day. The bottom plastic on the base is a different color than the top part and I asked him, "Why do you have it hooked up to a dock?" He said, what dock? The laptop is as thick as a brick.

Getting my first mac tomorrow. PB 17" (I'll be the only one in my class with a mac ;-(

I'll third this hehe. I see lots of people with laptops on campus these days (I'm a business undergrad), and two things tend to stick out. First, they almost always have their laptops plugged into a power outlet while sitting in class (hmmm, crappy battery life?). Second, some of those PC laptops are behemoths, definately pushing the definition of portability.

I've wanted a laptop for some time now, when I do get one, it's going to be a Mac, only question is iBook vs. Powerbook.
post #122 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by shidoshi
Of course, I'm also bothered a bit that Apple things adding things like a lighted keyboard and the new trackpad to their laptops really makes up for the lack of power in a number of areas inside. Don't get me wrong, I love those features, but they shouldn't be what is used to convince me to get a PowerBook versus the actual guts of the machine.

"a lighted keyboard" would have made me buy a 12"pb.
now, instead of wait another round.
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post #123 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Chagi
-- s n i p --
only question is iBook vs. Powerbook.

only question is: budget?
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post #124 of 198
Where does it say anywhere on apples tie that the 30 inch display has dual dvi connectors. It relies on the graphics processor alone. there is not two connectors.
post #125 of 198
It is Dual link DVI. Basically one DVI connector that carries 2 channels of signal. Each signal processes half the image. That is why you can run dual 30" monitors off the 6800 Ultra; it has Dual Dual Link DVI connectors.
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post #126 of 198
Microsoft has a tilt-wheel design-is Apple's anything similar (MS's scrolls horizontally and vertically)-I guess it's similar but implemented in a trackpad in a innovative method. Mobility 97000-fine (9800 is too hot for the PB). Dual link DVI is new to some models, BTO on one, standard on the 17".

And BT 2.0!
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post #127 of 198
While the glare on the Sony's may be of issue to some people, I still maintain that the Screens are in need of an update, and this has been somewhat of an on going complaint, that I've been reading over the past few months on these forums, every now and then someone will gripe about the screens. The panels look to be 2 years old, atleast.
post #128 of 198
Those of you that want a backlit keyboard in a 12", why don't you buy a 12" and replacement part for a 15" keyboard.

Looking at them, it seems like 12", 15" and 17" all use the same keyboard, when you just stare at the keyboard section and skip between the three sizes on the apple page, the keyboard does not change size or shape at all - I bet you could do a transplant.

Also - to the fellow a couple pages ago. When I say I don't really care about the speed of the computer or the processor, I don't think that I am being an apologist. All the laptops for sale today are fast enough - I wouldn't buy a PC laptop that was twice as fast and the same price, because it will fill with spyware and viruses, it would be heavy, hot, ugly, etc. The PC laptop would not meet my needs, so it does not matter how fast or cheap it is.

In fact, the powerbook has redefined my "needs", just by existing:

- 15" or 17"
- Firewire 800
- digital audio out (would have preferred mini AES/EBU, but I have a converter)
- Dual-DVI
- Bluetooth
- 802.11n or 802.11g

I doubt that I could buy any PC notebook like that, and if I could it sure would not weigh 6.9 lbs for the 17"

If we only cared about $/hp in cars, we would all drive cameros. And if all cars are 500 hp, who cares if the ugly car over there has 1000 hp.
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post #129 of 198
As far as I am aware of 802.11n hasn't been fully approved yet, so any products that use it may not work with the finalized version, not counting the fact that the PB doesn't have it.

Personally, I would of liked to see about 100 dollar more price drop, an update on the screens. That would of made me a bit happier.

Most laptops these days come with built in WiFi, bluetooth isn't so wide spread, but I don't know too many people who used bluetooth. I really don't see the purpose of the digital audio in/out's considering, this is targeted at professionals, who most likely use external firewire racks for audio.
post #130 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by scavanger
As far as I am aware of 802.11n hasn't been fully approved yet

I am using the Belkin pre-n router ($140 from amazon) right now - it kicks butt, much more reliable and faster than my old Linksys WAP-11. The only things wrong with it are:

1) the mac config tool does not work, luckily I had a PC.
2) you have to connect an ethernet cable to it to configure, which for me meant hauling a 100lb monitor and my PC downstairs.

When 802.11n gets approved, I will either do a firmware upgrade or buy a new one.

The great things about the router are better coverage with 11g, and it does not drop down to 11b if you have a single 11b computer using the network.
If I could use the pre-n wireless card, it would be even nicer.
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post #131 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by scavanger
Most laptops these days come with built in WiFi, bluetooth isn't so wide spread, but I don't know too many people who used bluetooth. I really don't see the purpose of the digital audio in/out's considering, this is targeted at professionals, who most likely use external firewire racks for audio.

Bluetooth is requred for wireless keyboard and mouse, and also cellphone sync is much better with it.

The digital audio out is so that you don't have to rely on the crappy d/a converter in your computer - it is not just for professionals, but also for audiophiles.
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post #132 of 198
Hey! What happened to the eMac upgrade that was rumoured to be coming with the PowerBook upgrade?

Does this mean the eMac will go to G5 later in the year? Or maybe just a speed bump on the G4 CPU sometime soon - maybe Tuesday

Maybe they didn't want to steal the Mac mini's thunder so soon after its release.

Oh well, half the rumour was true \


P.S. I hope the 512Mb RAM becomes standard across all Apple's.
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post #133 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by etai_s15
I've just placed an order for a 15" 1.67Ghz PB.
It's costing me just under $3700 AUD with 100GB HD, 1GB ram & 128mb vram (not sure how useful this is given I don't own a 30" display).

I've been an apple user for years, but I must admit osX on a PB can feel sluggish at times. My friend recently bought a 17"PB (the model prior to this update) and I must say osX seems sluggish compared to windows XP at certain tasks like loading CDs/DVD etc.

But I figure this powerbook has got to be better than the 400MHz G4 Powermac desktop I'm currently using at home

mate, (pity about lleyton hey but congrats on his engagement), your setup for $3700aud... one word... f8king sweet mate... make sure you run latest Mac Os X, 10.3.7, you're gonna have a bloody bonza time.

ps. 128 vram will still be useful for graphics speed even if you dont use an external monitor

edit: cd/dvd loading on your new PB shouldn't be an issue now, it'll just be several seconds for the drive to spin up, detect what kind of thingy it is, and display it on the desktop. if it is a DVD, it automatically loads DVD Player by default, so if you feel like watching a DVD, just plop it in, kick back, and your PB will handle it 'beaut...
post #134 of 198
Having read each post in this lengthy thread I ask myself:

How much of the 'gosh, I'm really impressed' posts are nothing more than justification for folks who cannot resist new toys.

(Emphasis on the toys.)
post #135 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Those of you that want a backlit keyboard in a 12", why don't you buy a 12" and replacement part for a 15" keyboard.

Looking at them, it seems like 12", 15" and 17" all use the same keyboard, when you just stare at the keyboard section and skip between the three sizes on the apple page, the keyboard does not change size or shape at all - I bet you could do a transplant.

Nope. The lighted keyboards require a different top case so it wouldn't work.

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post #136 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave J
Having read each post in this lengthy thread I ask myself:

How much of the 'gosh, I'm really impressed' posts are nothing more than justification for folks who cannot resist new toys.

(Emphasis on the toys.)

This is an incremental upgrade. There are, however, several things added or improved that make it a bit more than the average speed bump. How much you're impressed depends on whether you've been planning a Mac purchase, whether you just bought one and whether you're a Mac enthusiast. I think, in the absence of a G5 or dual-core PowerBook, this is a nice upgrade. It's certainly better than no upgrade at all.
post #137 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by iDave
This is an incremental upgrade. There are, however, several things added or improved that make it a bit more than the average speed bump. How much you're impressed depends on whether you've been planning a Mac purchase, whether you just bought one and whether you're a Mac enthusiast. I think, in the absence of a G5 or dual-core PowerBook, this is a nice upgrade. It's certainly better than no upgrade at all.

ditto. now, there's no doubt there are those that wet themselves at every apple announcement. but for mobile professionals that enjoy Macs and are more productive with Mac OS X, this is a welcome offering for them, particularly if they have been planning to get a new portable around the start of 2005. it's decent, fun, and i think the best that apple can do given Freescale and IBM not providing a robust enough mobile pipeline for them thus far

This update also buys Apple up to 6 months for the PowerBook G5 update, which will, in 6-8 months, be critical for them to get it right then.
post #138 of 198
I have to say, I think the PB updates rock. They give us what we need more than what we (think we) want. People don't need that kind of G5 speed in laptop! It would be nice, sure. But let's face it, serious rendering is done on computers that don't need to get unplugged an put in a backpack.

Prices are lowered, better video, etc., etc. This is a GOOD thing!
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post #139 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Bart Smastard
Hey! What happened to the eMac upgrade that was rumoured to be coming with the PowerBook upgrade?

This was a strange Monday announcement. I'm expecting an eMac bump tomorrow, or something similar.
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post #140 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Chagi
I've wanted a laptop for some time now, when I do get one, it's going to be a Mac, only question is iBook vs. Powerbook.

I'm with you there. Although I've actually owned a TiBook, but gave it to my mom. But now, working regularly in video, I find myself sitting around waiting for renders to complete. A little laptop on the side might help productivity, with emails, ftp transfers, etc. I was leaning towards the 12" iBook, but now the 12" PB seems too delicious to pass up. It would be even more worthwhile if Apple got some FCP Rendezvous rendering going.
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post #141 of 198
Anyway, nice update Apple, go ahead, roll it.
I just recommended a 12" Combo to
my co-worker, who is in the hall for
a new Laptop. He glimpsed at an iBook.
But now the story changed a bit.
I haven't had much effort to convince
this time

Btw, regarding the *missing* digital sound i/o option
on 12" and 15": there is a load of devices
just in front of your dribbing noses.
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post #142 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978

The great things about the router are better coverage with 11g, and it does not drop down to 11b if you have a single 11b computer using the network.


is this still the case with the newer 802.11g routers [linksys/dlink/apple base station]? (that it drops to 802/11b speeds if one device is present)


I remembered this was the case when 802.11g was first becoming available and was just wondering if that's still the case.

?
post #143 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by badtz
is this still the case with the newer 802.11g routers [linksys/dlink/apple base station]? (that it drops to 802/11b speeds if one device is present)


I remembered this was the case when 802.11g was first becoming available and was just wondering if that's still the case.

?

I have a wireless network at home - my iMac G3 is always on and is 11mbps but the PC connects at 36mbps, so it obviously slows down a bit or the range isn't very good.
post #144 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
The advantage of Dothan-based sonoma PC latops over these "Power"Books.

* 2MB L2 cache versus 512 KB L2 cache
* 2.13 GHz versus 1.67 GHz with 1.4-2x better performance than the G4, per clock. 90nm versus 130 nm technology.
* Advanced realtime clock/voltage throlling versus very primitive step-down throlling on the G4 (it's so pathetic, people have to say "set CPU performance to max in the ES control panel" when doing benchmarks)
* 533 MHz system bus (effective) versus 167 MHz
* DDR2-5400 memory versus un-utilized DDR2700 memory
* PCI Express graphics versus AGP graphics (Important for CoreImage/CoreVideo/DirectX9 shader applications, ie. using the GPU as a coprocessor)
* Express card slots versus regular PCMCIA cardbus slots (slow!!!)

I'm really amazed Apple even bothered updating the PowerBooks. They are beyond embarrassing.

This is at least partially straight out FUD. For a start numbers are by and large worthless particularly when they are as arbitrary as 90 nm process compared to a 130 nm process. Given Intel's fine 90 nm process I think personally I'd rather stick with a proven tech there but either way it is a meaningless number in the scheme of things. How something is made matters very little compared to what it can do.

The 1.4 - 2x speed per clock is pulled out of nowhere. By all means reference away if you care but the pentium-m processors, although very good, aren't that quick. I'm guessing you've never actually used one though.

As for DDR2-5400...well good luck explaining that given Dothan's FSB only reaches 4200.

Sonoma itself is arguably at the current time no step forward for the Centrino platform. For starters sonoma impacts battery life significantly, which is the primary concern of virtually any true mobile user.

It does offer some nice features but at the current time most aren't utilizable or potentially pointless.

Second for all the talk of how wonderful PCI Express graphics are there is to my knowledge not one card that yet utilises the upstream bandwidth it has brought about, which is what is really required for the GPU to take off as a coprocessor. Current generation cards still limit themselves in upstream communications. That is something that will change with the next generation but right now cards simply haven't been designed with return communication in mind, at least not as it can be.

Not saying Intel's Centrino isn't an excellent platform but you're making up crap and FUD.
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post #145 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Telomar
This is at least partially straight out FUD.
*snip*
Not saying Intel's Centrino isn't an excellent platform but you're making up crap and FUD.

ah, to those like me who didnot know before, wikipedia defines FUD as:
-----------------
"FUD was first defined by Gene Amdahl after he left IBM to found his own company, Amdahl: "FUD is the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that IBM sales people instill in the minds of potential customers who might be considering Amdahl products." (quoted in [1])

Eric S. Raymond speaks more about this in [1]:

"The idea, of course, was to persuade buyers to go with safe IBM gear rather than with competitors' equipment. This implicit coercion was traditionally accomplished by promising that Good Things would happen to people who stuck with IBM, but Dark Shadows loomed over the future of competitors' equipment or software. After 1991 the term has become generalized to refer to any kind of disinformation used as a competitive weapon."

Opponents of certain large computer corporations claim that the spreading of fear, uncertainty, and doubt is an unethical marketing technique that these corporations consciously employ.

By spreading questionable information about the drawbacks of less well-known products, an established company can discourage decision-makers from choosing those products over its wares, regardless of the relative technical merits. This is a recognised phenomenon, epitomised by the traditional axiom of purchasing agents that "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" equipment. The result is that many companies' IT departments buy software which they know to be technically inferior because upper management is more likely to recognize the brand."
-----------------------
post #146 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
...

The result is that many companies' IT departments buy software which they know to be technically inferior because upper management is more likely to recognize the brand."
-----------------------

thank you for that definition - very cool
post #147 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by MacCrazy
thank you for that definition - very cool

** feels warm glow **
post #148 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave J
Having read each post in this lengthy thread I ask myself:

How much of the 'gosh, I'm really impressed' posts are nothing more than justification for folks who cannot resist new toys.

(Emphasis on the toys.)

Exactly - but what is wrong with that?

It is middle aged men who want toys that, for the most part, drive this industry and many others (audio, photography, sports cars etc).
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post #149 of 198
Hi all,

I thought I would join in you started to be pissed at what apple had introduced then went well its ok bla bla bla.

It not OK the extras are nice the touch scroll and so on but come off it this is the minimum you would expect from apple with a refresh of the power book line. yes they are sort of still good if you don't have one at the moment but if you do then you can't justifies paying for this upgrade.

I am not saying as many are that it should have bean a G5 PowerBooks but what I am saying that apple could have got more speed out of it then that crappie amount of speed.

and apple have had prototypes of Motorolas dual core CPU since October last year and, had full working models since January so why have they brought out such a half hearted attempt at boosting the power books?

I say ....IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH APPLE.

The only way that this would be is if there extending there rang I.E

APPLE IBOOK = LOW END
APPLE POWERBOOK = MID to HIGH END
APPLE G5 POWERBOOK = TOP END MOBILE WORK STATION

it is also the only product line that apple has that dose not have a minimum of three product solutions in.

SO APPLE SORT IT OUT.


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post #150 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Black Dragon
I am not saying as many are that it should have bean a G5 PowerBooks but what I am saying that apple could have got more speed out of it then that crappie amount of speed.

Are there any PPC processors right now in the market, appropriate for mobile applications and faster than the ones Apple used in this update? If you know something, you must tell S. Jobs NOW, and be sure that Apple will update again the Powerbooks in less than a week.

Quote:

and apple have had prototypes of Motorola?s dual core CPU since October last year and, had full working models since January...

Now where this comes from?
post #151 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Black Dragon
...It not OK the extras are nice the touch scroll and so on but come off it this is the minimum you would expect from apple with a refresh of the power book line. yes they are sort of still good if you don't have one at the moment but if you do then you can't justifies paying for this upgrade.

I am not saying as many are that it should have bean a G5 PowerBooks but what I am saying that apple could have got more speed out of it then that crappie amount of speed.

and apple have had prototypes of Motorolas dual core CPU since October last year and, had full working models since January so why have they brought out such a half hearted attempt at boosting the power books?

I say ....IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH APPLE.

Your complaints have nothing to do with Apple, so how can they sort them out?

The 1.6 Ghz 7447 G4 processor is being overclocked by upgrade manufacturers to 1.7. Freescale does not have a version of the 7447 out yet with speeds greater than 1.67 Ghz, so Apple cannot offer a computer faster than that. At the same time IBM has not delivered a 1.6 Ghz G5 chip that Apple can reliably get in a production model PB.
Quote:
and apple have had prototypes of Motorolas dual core CPU since October last year and, had full working models since January so why have they brought out such a half hearted attempt at boosting the power books?

So what if they did, that does not mean that Freescale has them in production at a volume that Apple can use them in their production, or that the added heat of a dual core can be disapated in a production version of a powerbook using them.
So they are stuck at 1.67 Ghz G4 the same as you are, I'm sure that Steve would love to be shipping a 3Ghz G5 iBook for $999 but that is not to be, get over it.

They have added some value, and given their customers as much a speed increase as they can, we should be gratefull thet they didn't let the product stagnate for another 6 months. So a 1.67 Ghz PB isn't enough incentive to get you to upgrade from your 1.5, you probably are not the inteded customer for this PB.
post #152 of 198
At least the product is moving forward, bit by bit - there have been times in the past with no progress for years at a time.
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post #153 of 198
OK OK,

Chill out you guy's I can see what your saying.
But apple also has the chose of Intel, AMD, and, also designing an IBM laptop Processor in stead of trying to make the current one fit.

As many may say that Intel, and AMD arent fast enough or there is two little battery life, well I disagree the laptop by some of the manufacture are performing as decent desktop replacement. And no one has to take them laptops at face value I mean come on with all apple creativity they couldnt over come power probs and the likes. I think they can, and there is also a report some were saying that most PC laptop manufactures don't use the new and up and coming CPU properly there is some kind of feature that puts some parts on sand by and other to sleep there for saving power and improving performance.


I don't now there is no real speed gain from an extra 1,700 MHz so that totally pointless yes new user intending to by a PowerBooks will enjoy it, but i don't think its much use upgrading if you have one already.


Yes I know your saying that what i am complaining about is not apple, but apple employed them and we all have know for a long time that Motorola has not bean up to the job.


They could have at least up two of them CPU's in there.

With a bit of smart technology, and software to go with it there is no reason why they couldnt have dune that.

or just an idea beef up the graphics card with 256mb ram use NVIDIAs Nforce go chip and brought out an a panther update with core image and video in it and there for off loading some of the work from the CPU?

look I am not saying I now what went on, or have the answer but what I am saying that don't celebrate it just because it is new and now give you what you ahead as options before, as part of the package, as if it was really good leap forward.



But hay its just my opinion and that just how things work.
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post #154 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Black Dragon
But apple also has the chose of Intel, AMD...

Do you realize that these are x86 processors, meaning no OS X, no Apple software, no Macintosh software, don't you?

Quote:

...also designing an IBM laptop Processor in stead of trying to make the current one fit.

Apple is NOT a processor manufacturer and certainly NOT a manufacturer of IBM chips.
post #155 of 198
This doesn't matter to the general public, consumers or anyone buying the laptop. Speed Matters. The laptops come from Apple.com and the Apple store. Therefore anything wrong with it is there fault. That's how it works. Is it really just that Motorola and IBM need time? Or is it that they aren't throwing enough people at the projects? How is it Intel seems to struggle as much with ghz but continually smacks out faster processors? It's not better technology. It's more manpower, and more people working on the problem. Apple/IBM/Motorola could do something similar... I've personally watched fabbing process and some chip design.

Quote:
Originally posted by PB
Do you realize that these are x86 processors, meaning no OS X, no Apple software, no Macintosh software, don't you?



Apple is NOT a processor manufacturer and certainly NOT a manufacturer of IBM chips.
post #156 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
Do you realize that these are x86 processors, meaning no OS X, no Apple software, no Macintosh software, don't you?
Apple is NOT a processor manufacturer and certainly NOT a manufacturer of IBM chips.

No biggie - moving to the Intel chips would not be a problem. They did it before when they moved from 68040 to PowerPC. All you need to do is:

1. Include an emulator of the old instruction set
2. Package things as fat files that include both binaries
3. Phase out the old hardware from support after a few years.
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post #157 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
No biggie - moving to the Intel chips would not be a problem. They did it before when they moved from 68040 to PowerPC. All you need to do is:

1. Include an emulator of the old instruction set
2. Package things as fat files that include both binaries
3. Phase out the old hardware from support after a few years.

This has been beaten in the past to death in these boards. Anyone willing to shoot again this dead horse in the head ?
post #158 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by webmail
This doesn't matter to the general public, consumers or anyone buying the laptop. Speed Matters. The laptops come from Apple.com and the Apple store. Therefore anything wrong with it is there fault. That's how it works.

Now this sounds like an over-simplification.

Quote:

How is it Intel seems to struggle as much with ghz but continually smacks out faster processors? It's not better technology. It's more manpower, and more people working on the problem.

Quite possible.

Quote:

Apple/IBM/Motorola could do something similar...

This one, I don't know.
post #159 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
No biggie - moving to the Intel chips would not be a problem.

Sorry, but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

I watched the transition to PowerPC as it happened. The transition to PowerPC was about as smooth as they go, and given that Apple and Motorola engineers were both involved in the effort to define PowerPC, they made sure to do what they could (within reason) to make the transition painless.

It still took years, cost a great deal of money and trouble, caused no end of despair over the possibility that it was a mistake and would fail, caused a lot of fussing over the fact that the first generation of PowerPC machines were slower than the ones they replaced (because they were running emulated code almost exclusively), etc. Even MacOS 9.2 shipped with 68k code running in emulation.

Ponder the reception that Transmeta's CPUs have had in the market.

It was a huge mess. And again, that was one of the smoothest transitions in the industry. SGI's transition from MIPS to x86 crippled the company. Intel and HP's decade-long attempt to move its customers from x86 to EPIC (Itanium), which cost untold billions of dollars, was an outright failure. Even their attempt to move to a 64-bit version of x86 was trumped by AMD's more backwards-compatible implementation.

Oh, and goodbye AltiVec, just as people were adopting it in earnest...

For better and for worse, Apple is wedded to the PowerPC well into the future.
"...within intervention's distance of the embassy." - CvB

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"...within intervention's distance of the embassy." - CvB

Original music:
The Mayflies - Black earth Americana. Now on iTMS!
Becca Sutlive - Iowa Fried Rock 'n Roll - now on iTMS!
Reply
post #160 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
If the 1.67GHz 7447B is the best CPU they can put in the machine, what do you want them to do? It's not like they're holding back on you.

Here's the problem that I have - if this were a recent thing, Motorola being worthless when it comes to pushing the G4, I'd be able to accept the current situation just fine. But this has been going on for YEARS now. I purchased my TiBook back in early 2002, when it ended up being replaced by a new line of TiBooks. Thus, my 550MHz TiBook, at that point, was already an old model. Three years later, the G4 has only gained just over 1GHz of speed.

I don't know exactly what Apple could have done, because I'm not in that business. But I have trouble believing that their ONLY option was to wait around for the processor that would become the G5. Is there no way that they could have worked with Motorola to at least improve some factors of the G4, such as the bus speed? There were also rumors about IBM taking what was the G3 and adding an AltiVec-type unit to it. How fast have the G3s now gotten up to?

If all else fails, and there really was no other hardware options out there, then Apple should at least price the PowerBooks properly, in my opinion. I think you are not getting the kind of hardware you should be getting for the money involved.
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