Apple Unveils Faster, More Affordable PowerBooks - Page 2

But the money saved would need to be spent on new software to replace iMovie and FinalCut Express, as he clearly points out.

And then you're still running windows, so you're more power is lost as the CPU gets clogged with spyware (or with virus and spyware removal tools running non-stop). And then all your productivity is lost just trying to remember how windows works when. [One of my biggest pet peeves is that certain actions in Windows work differently depending on specific states or criteria. For example, double-clicking a CD may or may not open the CD, or it might launch an installer, or it might launch a slide show or WMP. Another irritating example. Double-clicking a network connection will show the status, if its enabled. But if its disabled, it'll enable it. And sometimes, you'll go right to the properties screen. Do you know how hard it is to help a family member through some computer problem over the phone when you're not sure how anything is going to display or work each time they do a task? OK, enough venting, get the impression I spent way too much time on the phone last night trying to get networking working again?]

That is the 12" powerbook, the 17" powerbook is 6.9 lbs.

One word for these new updates: Yawn. The G4 isn't even in the same league as Dothan-based sonoma laptops on 533MHz buses running at 2GHz+. We're talking 1.4-2x the performance of the G4, per clock. This puts Apple's fastest $2500 1.67GHz G4 PBs in the same league as 1.3Ghz Dothan-based "el-cheapo" Celerons and even then lacking in system bus intensive tasks.

I noticed Apple is now up to 10x the FSB. Perhaps Intel should send out a press release giving Apple the "Most underpowered laptop in the industry award." But then again, Apple is hardly relevant in the computer secter these days.

spyware or viruses are not an issue. Antivirus and antispyware software do not need to run 24/7. They only run either when I schedule them to or when I manually tell them to. So it's not even an issue.

As far as your other issues, well, I have to wonder if you've ever used windows? double clicking network connections always opens a property dialog. Enable or disabled. I've never known it to do otherwise.
Double clicking a CD will open windows explorer so you can browse the contents. To actually launch an app from it you have to double click the appropriate icon within the CD folder. It's the same every time.

Oh give me a break. I'm not thrilled with these updates either but come on, get a grip.

That, at least, is a legitimate gripe. Adding a super-powered 2ghz G5, but keeping the FSB the same wouldn't help. However, I'm still better off with the Apple interface--because my laptop really isn't meant to be a speed demon. And no matter how fast you're computer is, it still won't help you spell sector correctly.

You've quoted the weight for the 12" PB. The 17" is 6.9 lbs (3.1 kg) -- still counting battery and optical drive, so still better than the Dell weight-wise, just not as good as your accidental comparision to the 12" makes it sound.

They were stupid about FireWire 1 (not including it on iMacs.) Now they are being stupid with FireWire 800 (FW 2). It's a POWERBook. It should have FW800. That is one thing that sticks out feature-wise in my mind.

OT Gripe:

Uh, have you ever run windows? I make CD's for windows, and I'm always asked to put an autorun file on them. This means if you double-click the CD, it will run whatever program I've set it to. Usually, as was pointed out, an installer or a multimedia presentation. You have to choose explore to see the CD. Unless maybe you are on a laptop that has autorun disabled. Than I have to explain to the client how to enable it--so they can see it work--and then disable it again so their battery doesn't die.

Autorun is one my least favorite "features" of windows--and represents the type of thinking that makes virus writing so easy and inviting on Windows.

Back On Topic:
If someone is more familiar with Windows, I wouldn't suggest abandoning the platform just to take advantage of these PowerBook updates. But neither are they bad enough to drive a Mac user to the Windows camp.

As a matter of fact, my ire is probably more provoked by the people that are comparing this upgrade to a theoretical G5 Powerbook that am at comparison's to existing PC notebooks. But I think the decision is more complicate that pure numbers.

The advantage of Dothan-based sonoma PC latops over these "Power"Books.

* 2MB L2 cache versus 512 KB L2 cache
* 2.13 GHz versus 1.67 GHz with 1.4-2x better performance than the G4, per clock. 90nm versus 130 nm technology.
* Advanced realtime clock/voltage throlling versus very primitive step-down throlling on the G4 (it's so pathetic, people have to say "set CPU performance to max in the ES control panel" when doing benchmarks)
* 533 MHz system bus (effective) versus 167 MHz
* DDR2-5400 memory versus un-utilized DDR2700 memory
* PCI Express graphics versus AGP graphics (Important for CoreImage/CoreVideo/DirectX9 shader applications, ie. using the GPU as a coprocessor)
* Express card slots versus regular PCMCIA cardbus slots (slow!!!)

I'm really amazed Apple even bothered updating the PowerBooks. They are beyond embarrassing.

I'm doing it now. Double clicking the cd opens an explorer window. It does not launch it.

INSERTING the CD that has autorun will cause it to launch automatically. But if it's already inserted double clicking on the cd does only lets you browse the contents.

And all of this would help me run Powerpoint presentations better exactly how? Oh, I see, it would speed up my email. No, that's not right either. So the new chip lets me run iMovie on a PC? Nope, it doesn't do that either...

As I say, these wouldn't make me switch platforms. But there is nothing, and I mean nothing, in Dothan that makes Windows any more attractive to me either. Nothing that would make me more money or make me more productive, so I'll stick with the Mac. When I show a nice Keynote presentation to my customers, they don't seem put off by my "embarrassing" Mac.

Judging from CPU clock speeds, it seems that the new Powerbook use the 7447B processor. This processor became available only very recently (after mid-December).

Evidently not. You're here talking about the new Powerbooks. If they were "that" embarrassing you wouldn't waste your breath.

Shetline:

Thanks for catching that error. 6.9lbs isn't bad. I grow so weary of comparing the crap that is Wintel with Apple. Until Apple has spyware/adware and viri at every stop I will not consider Mac vs PC to be (no pun) Apple's to Apple's comparison.

Saving money sometimes isn't as important as saving time. PCs cost too damn much effort when it comes to maintaining.

Actually you sound like someone who doesn't use windows much. I've used Windows WAY too much. Double-clicking a CD will do an AutoRun on it, if its got an AutoRun file on it. So sometimes double-clicking it will launch the installer. Sometimes it just opens up (and other times it just decides to do what auto-run tells it to do, depending on what Windows thinks the stupid CD is). There are ways to disable all of this, but figuring that out, remembering it, and being able to do it again, not part of something I've been able to master (took me long enough to track down startup items in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\Software\\Microsoft\\Windows\\ Currentversion\\Run (and RunOnce and then check CurrentUser as well).

Now, on the network. Try this. Go to network connections. Right click on it. You'll see that "Properties" is bold, meaning its the default action if you double-click on it. Great. Now click Disable in the menu. And then right-click the icon again. Hey, look, Enable is now the default action. That's the stupidity I have to put up with. If you double-click the icon when its disabled, it enables it, it doesn't show the status window (I just did this, BTW). This is how Windows has worked (or not worked, depending on your point of view) whenever I've played with it lately (maybe its an XP thing?).

And I guess you live in that perfect Windows world where you never get viruses in emails, nor spyware via IE (not a problem, I suppose, if you don't use IE, although other apps install spyware, not just through web pages), so you can just not run a 24/7 scanner of either. But in the real world, not having a virus scanner running on a Windows machine is just asking for trouble.

stop trying to be some sort of voice of reason because you are very far from that.

everything you argue is ridiculous. go buy your iBook for 999 and run powerpoint, send emails, and run iMovie without buying a replacement.

For the other, professionals, who are buying a $2000 and higher laptop they deserve better bang for the buck and more competitive hardware for the performance intensive work that they do.

There is a point of being ridiculously harsh and whiney and there is also a point of being embarrassingly defensive. Unfortunately, both sides are rampant in this thread.

It's a very good update considering the G4 is practically at a dead end. Sure this is a very marketing driven update to try to spur some more sales, but when it comes down to it, you are getting a much better deal today than you were yesterday. So, either accept the updates and get them if you need one, or wait until the G5 is capable of being used in a portable.

Archer, I've shipped several million CDs out to users. On a desktop machine in standard configuration--double clicking opens the autorun. If you right click, it will have OPEN in bold--which runs the autorun--and an explore option beneath it. Trust me, I shipped 84 separate products in December alone for www.makaucorp.com, and I know what our #1 support call is. It's autorun. Followed closely by MediaPlayer 8 to 9/10 issues.

Now, it's complicated because the options can be changed. Because of the battery drain in laptops, many ship with the standard settings changed. Which is exactly what the first poster was complaining about. Windows interface is, in many small ways, not consistent from machine to machine and context to context. This is hellish for support and development, even if it works well for you personally.

Why?

Do you carry a RAID array around with you?

Okay, I apologize for discussing things on a discussion board. I wasn't saying my needs were everyones, but that a discussion should start with need, not numbers. Don't know what I said to piss you off so bad, but I appologize.

What's odd is that we seem to mostly agree. Good update, but nothing to write home about. But also not painfully embarrassing.

Like I said, both my CD's and my network icons do not, and have never, functioned the way you say. At the moment I own 2 laptops and a desktop. I did have 4 other desktops but sold them. I have never seen what you describe.

I have never had a virus or been hacked. I don't always run a virus scanner and never run a software firewall. I scan for spyware once a week, but it is automatic. Even so, I just don't install apps that include spyware so it isn't an issue. No, I don't use IE. I use Firefox.

Mac users seem to think that viruses and spyware run rampant on windows machines. And I suppose if you don't know what you are doing then yes, it does happen. Just don't use IE, run a spyware scanner on occasion and don't open email attachments. Problem solved.

right click does display the open option, which does not autorun, it opens the explore window. There is also an "explore" option, but it does the same thing.
But on the right click menu there is an "autoplay" entry which will launch the autorun.
I have not tweaked any settings after a clean install. This is the way it has always worked. So I have no idea why it would be any different for you.

No, you leave it home on your desk, and plug your powerbook into it when you get home. I actually plan on doing this, so the firewire 800 is really useful for me.

Also, I don't think that the 17" powerbook has any competetors in the PC marketplace (dual DVI, 6.9 lbs). I don't plan on doing ray-tracing on the road, but the extra features mean a lot to me.

Every time Apple introduces a new product, I suggest that appleinsider creates two forums: one to talk about the product, and another (which I won't read) to compare it to the PC.

Can I get all this in a 17" laptop that is 1" thick and weighs under 7 lbs? What about battery life? I agree that Apple needs to get a low-power G5 or 8xxx series G4 into the PowerBook line but a lot of the specs you quote are just not that important in a laptop and may only serve to diminish battery life. Laptops are meant to be used on batteries occasionally you know. The Mac mini already matches or exceeds the performance of the iMac G5 on many tests despite the iMac G5 having a faster bus and processor. I imagine these PowerBooks will take things a step further.

I think this is a very legitimate comparison, taking software out of the mix, the Dothan is a very good processor, and like it or not, it is better then the G4. You can argue RISC vs CISC all you want, but the voltage features, and the cache, and the bus, are far superior. Atleast Apple is trying.... Tho I'll wait for that G5 PB.

mmmmm... can anyone 'spot the troll' in this thread?

Now that would be a great suggestion.

from all the passion on both sides of the performance topic, it's clear people's patience is frayed. the core issue seems to be the lingering "legacy" G4.

if IBM hadn't had so many bumps in the 90nm migration, we might have PB G5s by now (MWSF'05). but we don't.

for my part, my only peeve with this update is the 167Mhz system bus. overall, we got a slew of component improvements across the board, and a decent price drop to boot.

i've been waiting 4 yrs to upgrade, so (assuming no defects become evident over the next couple weeks) i'll be getting one of these. it has everything i want, except the faster bus, but i'll live with that.

re: dothan vs G4 subthread, i'm a game programmer, so speed is ideal. but i've been stuck working on a 2.8 P4 (winXP) for 15 months, waiting for the "right" PB upgrade. and frankly, it's been so frustrating that i'll take a performance hit, just to smooth out my workflow.

ie: i lose time just fighting with windows UI behavior (like Louzer). and i long for the joy of unix shell scripting again.

so, at least for me, dothan over G4 is far less compelling than OS X over XP, making it a no-brainer.

to each his/her own.

Apparently, me, because I'm the one who got scolded.

I agree and realize that the Sonoma laptops offer near desktop grade performance and true mobile power saving features. I have seen a CPU clock monitor program running on a Centrino and the thing worked virtually everywhere between 600 and 1600 MHz, switching frequency almost instantly according to CPU load. Quite impressive to save power.

But what do you want Apple to do? They are not the manufacturers of the G4 and G5, they depend on Freescale and IBM for that. However, I find the update rather nice if we take into account the situation in the PPC landscape, since it included some welcome feature improvements.

I want them to release OSX for the PC! Hey a guy can dream right?

In other news...

Apple has broken the infinite chain of tuesdays!

*gasp!*

Sign of progress or of the coming apocolypse?

Thoughts? Comments? Links to free iPods?

I think they released it on a Monday just to play with our minds. On the other hand, we could take it to mean that there is still hope for a G5 PowerBook tomorrow. I think The Register has something about it.

If I am not mistaken, there have been other Monday Powerbook updates too.

Checking my edu connetion on the new PB12 price points. My experience is that it has the deepest edu price cut, and certainly makes it worth buying for someone with accesss to institutional prices. For me, depending on discount, it will make a nice upgrade in RAM/HDD/Optical and I/O, with a near CPU doubling thrown in to boot. Should be possible with just a couple hundred over an ebay'd 867. hmmm...

I still contend that the G4 is not nearly the impediment that people say it is, when we're talking laptops.

I have a feeling the eventual G5 powerbook will not feature an IBM CPU... just a feeling...

All in all, a solid update, with lots of creature comforts.

Compatibility with the 30" beast was inevitable, but it's still welcome. 512MB of RAM is a welcome boost for a professional line especially. Leave it to Apple to handle the little extras and fit-and-finish and detailing. The new price structure is nice, too.

I'll be interested to see voltage and wattage numbers for the 7447B.

Nothing to shout from the rooftops, but it gives Apple, Freescale and IBM a few more months to take the line to the next level. If IBM hasn't cracked the "mobile 970" nut yet, Freescale will be delivering some very interesting next-gen G4s by then. Bye-bye MaxBus...

As for sales, they don't correlate exactly to updates. In the spring of last year, PowerBook sales spiked upward despite the fact that they hadn't been updated in months. It looks like Apple is dolling their product lines up for a halo effect.

One welcome side effect, pointed out by the denizens of Ars: Crack-addled speed freaks are no longer responsible for generating the copy on Apple's product pages. The language is actually reasonable, given that it's marketing babble. Someone must have received the message that the hyperbolic language they used to use just sounds defensive and delusional.

As would I.

I'm noticing a "more power than you need" argument gaining traction here. This is an apologist and almost snobbish attitude. Why should anyone else tell me what I want to do with my computer? Besides, you sound like Bill Gates talking about 640K of RAM being more than enough for anyone.

However the COOOOOLEST thing I just noticed is Suddent Motion Sensor. That's wicked cool. Seriously.

no or not enough 1.67Ghz processors, maybe?
other technologies not ready? like bluetooth 2, scroll trackpad etc.

very tempting indeed:
shall i buy or shall i wait?

[edit] wow, i'm a little late, i see.

If it works, yes. It's like airbags for your laptop.

I don't understand what you mean. The 15" and 17" have FW800.
The 12" doesn't, likely for space reasons (which is also why it doesn't have the backlit keyboard.)

If you need FW800 that bad, buy a 15".

You are wrong on this one: back in the introduction of the Aluminum Powerbooks, two years ago, one Apple executive (I don't remember the name) acknowledged publicly in an interview that the 12" inch model has not the backlit keyboard not because of technical problems, but since they wanted to make the 17" model (there was not 15" Aluminum at the time) even more appealing. That's all, and it seems that Apple still holds on this decision.