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What do you think of Israel's creation and expansion since then?

post #1 of 88
Thread Starter 
Many people don't believe that there is a political movement by the jews called zionism that started in the 19th century to use the superiority of european technologies, economies, knowledge and military to recreate ancient Israel in the region called Palestine.

Many people instead believe that the creation of Israel was circumstantial due to the prosecution of jews in Europe and Russia and the holocaust during ww2 and also due to the aggressivness and intolerance of arabs living in the region called Palestine, as well as through the just newly founded surrounding arabic countries.

The same people then explain the creation of Israel as a jewish and souvereign nation as due to security-reasons and the expansions since then, which resulted in a 4 times bigger Israel than in 1948/49, as the logical consequence of wars arabic countries started and lost.

When someone claims that the expansions of Israel as well as the creation of Israel as a jewish souvereign state is not circumstantial but planned strategy by zionists to recreate ancient Israel, that goes from Nile to Euphrat, he/she is usually declared as a conspiracy-nut.

If that is what you have in mind, then you are free to see me as a conspiracy-nut, because that's exactly what I'm claiming in this thread:

1. a) The motivation for zionists to pursue the recreation of ancient Israel in a region that is populated by arabs of which most are muslims, is to finally create a truly safe haven for all jews, because anti-semitism was again widely active in Europe and Russia and in other parts of the world.

1. b) Off course the question arises, why was the zionist-movement founded in the 19th century and not way earlier? Because political, economical, technological developemts created a huge difference between Europe and the ottoman-empire, which was slowly but surely crumbling, and the zionist-movement wanted to use that opportunity to get jews back into the region called Palestine from which the roman empire had driven out the ancient jews thousands of years ago.

1. c) New information-technologies like newspapers made it possible to propagate the idea in many countries and the financial capabilities of the zionists made it possible to lobby in the ranks of the strongest european might at that time, the British Empire.

1. d) The interests of the British Empire and the zionist-movement overlapped as Britain had the interest to create a second outpost (the first was Egypt) in the middle-east from which to fight the ottoman-empire and chose the region called Palestine and colonised it.

1. e) Not long after colonisation of Palestine the British colonists let the first wave of jewish immigrants into the area. Before that first jewish immigration wave, there were already a small portion of arabic jews in Palestine, which lived for centuries there in autonomic communities inside the ottoman empire.

1. f) That first wave of jewish immigrants was invited by the zionist-movement to "come home" by using the myth of the deserted land. Basically they propagated the idea that Palestine is really a deserted area, where noone lives and works, that just belongs to rich landowners that live in the area nowadays called Syria and Turkey, and that are willing to sell the land to the jews.

1. g) While the zionist-movement bought land from the absent landowners, the zionists used the british army to help them in driving out the people that really lived and worked on that land for centuries and settled the jewish immigrants on it. In order to be secure from any angry arabic ressentiments those settlers were equipped with guns. The settler-movement that started then was always based on the rifle and the plow.

Up until that moment everything went over, eventhough ethically seen unjust, internationally legal under colony-laws. But the arabic ressentiments grew with every new immigration-wave, because those always resulted in a new wave of expropriated and driven out "palestinians", which finally resulted in arabic riots during which many "palestinians" died through the guns of the british army as well as through the guns of jewish settlers, but jewish settlers were also often victims.
I'm not sure if shortly after the first arabic riots or shortly before, but then the first jewish terror-groups were founded which had the goal of protecting jewish settlements, as well as to deter arabic attacks, to retaliate any arabic attacks, but also to terrorise "palestinian" landowners so that they are forced to sell their land, in short to further the zionistic agenda through illegal activities.
That started the second phase:

2. a) Britain feared to lose control over the colony that was shaken by arabic riots and jewish terrorist-acts against arabs. Britain, after squashing the arabic rebellion bloodily, conducted an investigation regarding the motives of the rebellion and came to the conclusion that it was the waves of jewish immigrants coupled with the driving out of "palestinians". The arabs obviously felt that they would soon be outnumbered by the jewish immigrants and completely driven out of the region called Palestine, and they felt that the British colonists were siding with the immigrants and helping them with its army.

2. b) That was the time when Britain decided to reduce jewish immigration and after that decision the zionist-movement searched and found a new political helper in the US, and that was about the time when the jewish terror-groups not only targeted arabs but also the british colonists.

2. c) ww2 was glooming on the horizon, which should weaken Britain's stand in the region called Palestine considerably. Secret US-support for the jewish terrorist-groups, which resulted in a lot of British casualties as well as arabic casualties, but also in jewish casualties through arabic riots, and the ongoing ww2, as well as the holocaust made it impossible for Britain to keep the colony, and made it difficult to keep the policy of lowered jewish immigration, so Britain gave the colony after ww2 over to the UN.

2. d) The UN at that time consisted of the US, the Soviet-Union, Britain, France and China. The UN, aka the US, decided that Britain should open up the colony for unrestricted jewish immigration, which meant unrestricted driving out of "palestinians".

2. e) This triggered a chain-reaction between US-supported zionistic terror-groups, the armed settler-movement, the slowly but surely driven out "palestinians" and their reactions, until the UN decided to create two states, Israel and Palestine. Israel should be at the sea, while Palestine should be east of it and be inhabitated by the driven out palestinians and those that are not. Both, the zionists as well as the "palestinians" rejected the partition-plan for similar reasons, both wanted everything.

Then phase 3, creation and expansion of Israel, started:

3. a) Israel was founded with diplomatic US-support, and the surrounding arabic countries reacted with war, which they lost and which led to the first expansion of Israel and the driving out of further 700,000 palestinians.

3. b) It wasn't until the sixties when Nasser was leader of Egypt, that the arabs discussed to start a war with Israel again. Israel took the threats and discussions as a justification to start the 67-war, during which Egypt lost Gaza and Sinai and Jordan lost the important Westbank.

3. c) Unfortunately for Israel though, since the Nazi-experiments with driving out of native populations in Poland and elsewhere, the idea to massively drive out palestinians from Gaza and Westbank is not acceptable to the worldcommunity anymore, so Israel decided to install an apartheit-regime in the new territories and to let jewish settlers in, expropriate a bit here and there and espescially reserve the water in those territories mostly for Israel and the settlers, and basically use the apartheit-regime to make life for palestinians as miserable as possible so that they voluntarily would want to leave.

3. d) The different wars up until then already created millions of palestinian refuggees in the surrounding arabic countries, resistance-groups formed among the palestinians which over the time worked together until they united to the PLO.

3. e) All the while Egypt learned from the mistakes from the past wars and restructured and reequipped its army and started a war in 73 in order to regain Sinai, which Israel didn't want to give back in diplomatic negotiations before that war. Up to that war Israel saw itself as way superior to the arabic armies, the US thought similar. But that war changed everything, during which Egypt nearly conquered whole Israel, were it not for the last-minute-influx of US-weapons and ammunition which changed the tide and let Israel win the war.
Nonetheless the experience was a deep shock to Israel and led to the decision to aquire nukes and led also to the 77-peace with Egypt, in which Israel gave back Sinai and espescially neutralised one of its strongest enemy.

That led to phase 4 which comes tommorow, if God wills.

Nightcrawler
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post #2 of 88
Oops, triple post. Sorry.
post #3 of 88
Israel exist, I don't have to think about it's creation, nor I have to think about the creation of the US, australia, or any other countries in the world.

Zionis existed before the creation of Israel, but without the Holocaust, Israel would have been way different fom what is is right now. You can't change back history.

If your point is to say that Israel is an evil and rogue nation, it's pointless, because same can be said of many Israelians neighbours, and in a more general way, nearly all the countries of the world, if you look at their past or present records.
post #4 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Israel exist, I don't have to think about it's creation, nor I have to think about the creation of the US, australia, or any other countries in the world.

That argument seems self-defeating.

By that token you would not have to think about them if they ceased to exist either.

If that is the case than existing or not is irrelevant - unless one is to argue that certain countries have a right to exist. No-one has such a right, they either do or do not.
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post #5 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
That argument seems self-defeating.

By that token you would not have to think about them if they ceased to exist either.

If that is the case than existing or not is irrelevant - unless one is to argue that certain countries have a right to exist. No-one has such a right, they either do or do not.

I am self-defeating about the future of this thread.

But, you are right, the meaning of my post was that it was useless to argue if countries have a right to exist. It's seems that Nightcrawler by asking what do you think of Israel's creation, question it's legitimacy, and therefore it's right to exist.

Of course as usual, you express this in a much better way than I did.
post #6 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I am self-defeating about the future of this thread.

Yes Powerdoc, you don't have to be Nostrodamus to see that it's right to exist will be shortly questioned
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post #7 of 88
The whole premise of this thread is wrong. People who have even considered Israeli history know of the early state's ties to Zionism. People also who have considered its history know that the early groups who pushed for its creation contained terrorists and terror tactics.

If the concern is that people don't know this, then there are far more important things in the world to focus your attention on.
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post #8 of 88
Quote:
3. b) It wasn't until the sixties when Nasser was leader of Egypt, that the arabs discussed to start a war with Israel again. Israel took the threats and discussions as a justification to start the 67-war, during which Egypt lost Gaza and Sinai and Jordan lost the important Westbank.[/B]

You are blaming the 1967 war on Isreal? Unreal.
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post #9 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
You are blaming the 1967 war on Isreal? Unreal.

Who attacked first?
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post #10 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Who attacked first?

Syria, by shelling Isreal from the golan heights:

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...x-Day_War.html
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post #11 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Syria, by shelling Isreal from the golan heights:

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...x-Day_War.html


That's not what others say:

Link


Quote:
After a period of relative calm, border incidents between Israel and Syria, Egypt, and Jordan increased during the early 1960s, with Palestinian guerrilla groups actively supported by Syria. In May, 1967, President Nasser, his prestige much eroded through his inaction in the face of Israeli raids, requested the withdrawal of UN forces from Egyptian territory, mobilized units in the Sinai, and closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israel. Israel (which had no UN forces stationed on its territory) responded by mobilizing.

The escalation of threats and provocations continued until June 5, 1967, when Israel launched a massive air assault that crippled Arab air capability. With air superiority protecting its ground forces, Israel controlled the Sinai peninsula within three days and then concentrated on the Jordanian frontier, capturing Jerusalem's Old City (subsequently annexed), and on the Syrian border, gaining the strategic Golan Heights. The war, which ended on June 10, is known as the Six-Day War.


or this:

Link



Quote:
Arab mobilization compelled Israel to mobilize its troops, 80 percent of which were reserve civilians. Israel feared slow economic strangulation because long-term mobilization of such a majority of the society meant that the Israeli economy and polity would be brought to a virtual standstill. Militarily, Israeli leaders feared the consequences of absorbing an Arab first strike against its civilian population, many of whom lived only miles from Arab-controlled territory. Incendiary Arab rhetoric threatening Israel's annihilation terrified Israeli society and contributed to the pressures to go to war.

Against this background, Israel launched a pre-emptive* strike against Egypt on June 5, 1967 and captured the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Despite an Israeli appeal to Jordan to stay out of the conflict, Jordan attacked Israel and lost control of the West Bank and the eastern sector of Jerusalem. Israel went on to capture the Golan Heights from Syria. The war ended on June 10.


*pre-emptive being the term that would make this agression OK. It doesn't.
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post #12 of 88
Egypt moved 100,000 troops to the border, and at the same time the Egyptian leader was saying that he was intending to cover Isreal with the blood of the jews.

Egypt and Syria started the problems, and they deserved to get their ass kicked (and they did).
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post #13 of 88
This thread raises some interesting issues. Here's two we could explore:

1) If Statehood can be achieved by terrorist acts perpetrated by terrorist organisations, as was the case with Israel, and the resulting State can be deemed legitimate with a 'right to exist' and all that mullarkey, does that mean that terrorist activities are only illegitimate when they have not yet achieved their goal ?

In that case, should we not be more tolerant to terrorists in case they do achieve their goals and then we will have to recognize their legitimacy ?

South Africa and Mandela are another good example of this but there are many others.

2) If Orthodox Jews themselves claim that Israel does not have a right to exist (and they do) then should not they be the arbiters of this rather than other parties who have no direct involvement ?
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post #14 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Egypt moved 100,000 troops to the border, and at the same time the Egyptian leader was saying that he was intending to cover Isreal with the blood of the jews.

Okay... once I would have let pass. Twice? Twice I've got to call you on.

It's Israel, I-S-R- 'A' before 'E' -L.

And now back to our regularly scheduled squabbling.
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post #15 of 88
How was Israel created by terrorism, and in what ways do Orthodox Jews say that Israel doesn't have a right to exist?
post #16 of 88
post #17 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
How was Israel created by terrorism,


By bombing British hotels in the middle of Palestine.
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post #18 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Egypt moved 100,000 troops to the border, and at the same time the Egyptian leader was saying that he was intending to cover Isreal with the blood of the jews.

Egypt and Syria started the problems, and they deserved to get their ass kicked (and they did).

I didn't ask you who put how many soldiers where. I asked you to tell me who attacked first. You said it was Syria, now you say Egypt moved 100,000 soldiers to the border and whatnot. You say Egypt and Syria deserved [how so?] to have their asses kicked and that they did. Someone got their asses kicked before Egypt and Syria but that doesn't mean they deserved it or that it was right.

So who started the war again?
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post #19 of 88
The creation of Israel was a huge error, but very understandable in light of the holocaust and the state of the world anno 1948.

It can't and won't be undone, and though discussing history is an amusing exercise it bears no fruits, except some good general education.

Let's talk about the current expansion/withdrawal instead. What's really happening right now, and where will it end?
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post #20 of 88
If there ever was a legitimate reason for pre-emptive war I would say Israel qualify to the finale with the 67 war. And I am certainly not a Israel supporter.
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post #21 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
By bombing British hotels in the middle of Palestine.

That's what created Israel? I thought it might have had something to do with the United Nations resolution calling for the formation of the country in the aftermath of the Holocaust?
post #22 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
That's what created Israel? I thought it might have had something to do with the United Nations resolution calling for the formation of the country in the aftermath of the Holocaust?

Then you have missed the entire pre-holocaust era. Read up on it.
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post #23 of 88
Im not a big supporter either but lets not rewrite history. Its very clear that Eygpt kicked out the russians from their country and then attacked Isreal.... If it was the other way around then Isreal would be controling Egypt and Syria today. They attacked and did get their arses handed to them by a very inferior and outnumbered Isreali army. I dont Blame Isreal one bit for holding some of that territory. Just think if Egypt and Syria hadnt attacked they would still have that land.
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post #24 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Im not a big supporter either but lets not rewrite history. Its very clear that Eygpt kicked out the russians from their country and then attacked Isreal.... If it was the other way around then Isreal would be controling Egypt and Syria today. They attacked and did get their arses handed to them by a very inferior and outnumbered Isreali army. I dont Blame Isreal one bit for holding some of that territory. Just think if Egypt and Syria hadnt attacked they would still have that land.

sure your not mixing wars here? Read up on it...
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post #25 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
How was Israel created by terrorism

Irgun and the Stern Gang were terrorist organisations who led a campaign of terror against the British including non-military targets with the sole aim of establishing the State of Israel.

Quote:
in what ways do Orthodox Jews say that Israel doesn't have a right to exist?

According to Orthodox Judaism, the State of Israel will not be established until after the arrival of the Messiah. As they hold that this has not yet happened they object to Israel as a false State.

They also object to Zionism - primarily on religious grounds but also because they believe that Zionists had a symbiotic relationship with the Nazis which they exploited at the cost of Jewish lives in order to establish a Zionist State.
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post #26 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Then you have missed the entire pre-holocaust era. Read up on it.

How about you help me out by providing some sources that show that Israel was created via the bombing of hotels in the pre-holocaust era?Thanks in advance.
post #27 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
How about you help me out by providing some sources that show that Israel was created via the bombing of hotels in the pre-holocaust era?Thanks in advance.


Read segovius' post.
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post #28 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by New
sure your not mixing wars here? Read up on it...

I think you right i did a little mixing of 67 and 73 sorry. But Isreal was attacked by Egypt in 73 not the otherway as Nightcrawler would like us to think.
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post #29 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
How about you help me out by providing some sources that show that Israel was created via the bombing of hotels in the pre-holocaust era?Thanks in advance.

It's a pretty clear historical fact that the zionist campaign of terror against the britsh mandate rule effectively made them give up and pull out.
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post #30 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
I think you right i did a little mixing of 67 and 73 sorry. But Isreal was attacked by Egypt in 73 not the otherway as Nightcrawler would like us to think.

Absolutely. And the first days of egyptian advancement in Sinai were pretty impressing. Until it was stopped that is.


BOY! It's been a long time since we did this guys! Bring it on!
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post #31 of 88
I think if the Muslim world took a more live and let live approach to others and their and thinking they would be much more prosperous then they are today due to their endless fighting between themselves and neighbors. Just look at the past 50 years. Perhaps they are getting that war isnt the way to go.
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post #32 of 88
I think if the western world/the USA took a more live and let live approach to others and their and thinking they would be much more liked then they are today due to their endless fighting between themselves and their neighbors. Just look at the past 1000 years. Perhaps they are getting that war isnt the way to go.
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post #33 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
I think if the Muslim world took a more live and let live approach to others and their and thinking they would be much more prosperous...

Much more prosperous ? Saudi ? Dubai ? UAE ? Kuwait ? Iran ? Brunei ffs

Pool those resources and they could buy the US and a few other fringe satellites a few times over.....
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post #34 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Much more prosperous ? Saudi ? Dubai ? UAE ? Kuwait ? Iran ? Brunei ffs

Pool those resources and they could buy the US and a few other fringe satellites a few times over.....

I refer to Palastine,Syria,Iraq,Iran and what the heck is a Brunei
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post #35 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by New
I think if the western world/the USA took a more live and let live approach to others and their and thinking they would be much more liked then they are today due to their endless fighting between themselves and their neighbors. Just look at the past 1000 years. Perhaps they are getting that war isnt the way to go.

How on earth did you come to the last conclusion?
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post #36 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by New
I think if the western world/the USA took a more live and let live approach to others and their and thinking they would be much more liked then they are today due to their endless fighting between themselves and their neighbors. Just look at the past 1000 years. Perhaps they are getting that war isnt the way to go.

The world loved us before George. I cant help we have a screwed up Adminisration ran by Big Business special interest just as i cant help that the Democrats havent a clue on how to represent working Joe's in this country.
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post #37 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
and what the heck is a Brunei




oh boy...
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post #38 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
I didn't ask you who put how many soldiers where. I asked you to tell me who attacked first. You said it was Syria, now you say Egypt moved 100,000 soldiers to the border and whatnot. You say Egypt and Syria deserved [how so?] to have their asses kicked and that they did. Someone got their asses kicked before Egypt and Syria but that doesn't mean they deserved it or that it was right.

So who started the war again?

Syria and Egypt. From my earlier link:

"In the years before the Six-Day War, the Arab countries continually refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Jewish state, and Arab nationalists led by Nasser called for the destruction of Israel. Egypt and Jordan supported Palestinian fedayeen (guerrillas), who attacked troops and civilians in Israeli territory, then retreated to the Egyptian-controlled Gaza Strip or the Jordanian-controlled West Bank. From its Golan Heights region, Syria regularly shelled Israeli farms."

Also, moving the troops in and making death threats counts as an attack in my book.
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post #39 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
How on earth did you come to the last conclusion?

I obviously didn't...
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post #40 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Also, moving the troops in and making death threats counts as an attack in my book.

Well, your book is wrong then. That the Syrians couldn't control the PLO hardly justifies annexing their land against international law.
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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