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post #161 of 198
2/16/05 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally posted by atomic_angel
First, yes you do. I never said any such thing in this thread. Two...what is the "Mr. Cuilla" stuff? You and MarcUK are saying this.

Yeah guys, give the guy a break. Mr. Cuilla sounds so old and stuffy... just call him Chris.

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post #162 of 198
2/16/05 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
I'm not making judgments on particular religions, I am setting them aside altogether, whatever there merits might be and asking what common things do all of us humans share, and how much of that has been co-opted by those religions for there exclusive use?

As far as universal traits that humans share, how about the desire for there to be some greater meaning to life than simply eat, sleep and reproduce? After all, stripped of its propaganda, ceremony and poltics, religion is about spirituality: trying to find a place in this world, some reason to be here and some way to relate to everything around us that is greater than we are.
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post #163 of 198
2/16/05 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
The more one learns about both science and other religions, the better off we all are. Question everything and believe nothing 100%.

Stephen Jay Gould wrote a book called Rocks of Ages. Although I find a lot of Gould's work to be popular tripe not worthy of being called science, this particular book treats the subject nicely. He argues that science and religion are "two non-overlapping Magisteria." He defines Magisteria as domain of authority in teaching. Basically he says that religion and science are seamless and interdigitating. Where one leaves off, the other picks up. To fully understand the world around us we need both. Science can explain so much and yet man is still a spiritual creature. Perhaps with time science will roll back the covers of the universe even further, but beyond every discovery have been new questions. Can the divine not be found in these endless wonders? I for one think so.
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post #164 of 198
2/16/05 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
....are you saying Josephus was forged? I've looked at a chunck of his writing that appears to be tampered, but not much more than that.

No I wasn't saying Josephus was forged, I was referring to the passages that are claimed to be written by Josephus that reference Christ, that were forged and inserted into Josephus by the Catholic Church. And their is near universal agreement between scholars - even most respectable Christian ones, that Josephus did not write these passages. Obviously this truth has not filtered out into fundie land yet, but you are making youself seem foolish and naive by claiming Josephus wrote about Jesus.

Ofcourse, if you actually read the links I posted, and not flicked through them for a few minutes and dismissed them, you would know this. It took me a couple of weeks solid reading to examine the whole site. I very much doubt that even someone as smart as you could do it in an hour.

Tell me something dmz, what are you frightened of? If its all bullshitlies, it can do you no harm, and you can obviously point out the numerous deceptions woven by these sites. Funny, but when I was examining creation theory, I read through their literature, thousands of pages of it, often till I couldn't keep my eyes open any longer. I knew that if it was true, aspects of my life would be torn to shreds, but I gave it 110% devotion in the quest of finding the truth, however much it might hurt. Why can't you do the same?
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post #165 of 198
2/16/05 at 2:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kishan
Stephen Jay Gould wrote a book called Rocks of Ages. Although I find a lot of Gould's work to be popular tripe not worthy of being called science, this particular book treats the subject nicely. He argues that science and religion are "two non-overlapping Magisteria." He defines Magisteria as domain of authority in teaching. Basically he says that religion and science are seamless and interdigitating. Where one leaves off, the other picks up. To fully understand the world around us we need both. Science can explain so much and yet man is still a spiritual creature. Perhaps with time science will roll back the covers of the universe even further, but beyond every discovery have been new questions. Can the divine not be found in these endless wonders? I for one think so.

Well put. It's not as if I'm saying science has all the answers, but perhaps more importantly it does have more and varied questions.

Frankly I find more awe and beauty in all that exists be it math, astronomy, quantum physics etc. than I ever felt in the downright medieval, myopic Christian teachings I was subjected to until old enough stop attending and learn on my own.

Scientific discoveries and theories are like a new rung on the ladder, letting me get a bit higher to look around whereas Christian teachings are more brick-like, sealing me off. The more I was "taught" the more more obscured my view was.

It was suffocating.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #166 of 198
2/16/05 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Well put. It's not as if I'm saying science has all the answers,

You might be saying this...but there are many that do believe just that...that science is the source of all truth and that religion is a would of fantasy.

Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Frankly I find more awe and beauty in all that exists be it math, astronomy, quantum physics etc. than I ever felt in the downright medieval, myopic Christian teachings I was subjected to until old enough stop attending and learn on my own.

Scientific discoveries and theories are like a new rung on the ladder, letting me get a bit higher to look around whereas Christian teachings are more brick-like, sealing me off. The more I was "taught" the more more obscured my view was.

It was suffocating.

This is an unfortunate experience but you shouldn't throw out the "baby" of Christian faith and theology with the "bathwater" of poor teaching.
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post #167 of 198
2/16/05 at 2:22pm
the way I see it is Science is the mechanism we use to understand God, God seems to want to reveal himself through knowledge and understanding. Satan would create religions to shut off our curiosity, so that we never had God revealed to us. This is what the early Christians believed too, before the state authority realised that they could become wealthy and powerful by handing us a prewritten story to numb our senses and use fear to make us fall into line.
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post #168 of 198
2/16/05 at 2:28pm
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
the way I see it is Science is the mechanism we use to understand God, God seems to want to reveal himself through knowledge and understanding.

I think this is true...but would not limit the mechanisms of understanding God to only the scientific method.

Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Satan would create religions to shut off our curiosity, so that we never had God revealed to us.

I partly agree with this in that Satan is viewed as a deceiver...and one that would attempt to pervert the truth.

Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
before the state authority realised that they could become wealthy and powerful by handing us a prewritten story to numb our senses and use fear to make us fall into line.

This is where many people jump to the conclusion that there is some single, unifying, worldwide conspiracy to brainwash and that all people that call themselves Christians are deluded but said conspiracy. I just don't see that happening.
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post #169 of 198
2/16/05 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by atomic_angel
Believe whatever you want. You are making big assumptions and they are wrong. Sorry.

Um, you're forgetting that there are people here who do know for a fact what goes on with new and banned accounts.

Chris.
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post #170 of 198
2/16/05 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally posted by murbot
Um, you're forgetting that there are people here who do know for a fact what goes on with new and banned accounts.

Then they should know that MarcUK's assumptions are incorrect.
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post #171 of 198
2/16/05 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally posted by atomic_angel
Arguably, the Roman Catholic church has done more damage to true Christian faith than any other single entity in human history. (I know I just pissed off the Catholics...but I am referring to the corporate infrastructure and entity that is the Roman Catholic church.)

This is something I have argued before, there is no doubt that the Catholic church between the 3rd and 19th century was very backwards and downright nasty. But look how things have swapped places in the last 100 years. You evangelicals of 2005 are the Catholic church you so despise. You behave *exactly* like they did, without the sense to realise that evangelical Christianity has become everything you so despise about the old Catholic church. Meanwhile, for all its ills, the Catholics are becoming tolerant, peaceful, inclusive and pro -science. Even the pope admitted there is no problem with evolution. Don't you think the one person on Earth who has access to all the scripture, theologians, and advisors a Christian could ever hope for might actually be in a good position to make a judgement? All he has to do now, is admit that the Bible was based on texts written about the sun, and I can call myself a Christian too.
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post #172 of 198
2/16/05 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by atomic_angel

I partly agree with this in that Satan is viewed as a deceiver...and one that would attempt to pervert the truth.

Exactly, look at the entire web of deception spun by fundamentalist evangelical or old Catholic Christianity *the same thing*

Your History does not stand up to scrutiny. It is a big lie, held together by fear and myopia.

Your Scripture does not stand up to scrutiny. It is a big lie, held together bt fear and myopia.

Your evidence of proof of Jesus does not stand up to scrutiny. It is a big lie held together by fear and myopia.

Your evidence of Intelligent Design and attacks on evolution and science, is the biggest possible lie you could tell in the 20th/21st Century. It is a whopper of a lie held together by fear and myopia.

Now did God spin all these lies? or was it the work of Satan?
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post #173 of 198
2/16/05 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally posted by atomic_angel

This is where many people jump to the conclusion that there is some single, unifying, worldwide conspiracy to brainwash and that all people that call themselves Christians are deluded but said conspiracy. I just don't see that happening.

But that is almost exactly what did happen. The Roman Catholics circa 3rd Century, the crusades, murder, torture, burning the entire history of mankind and scientific achievement at the library of Alexandria, supressing other religions into inexistance - for 1300 years until there was no possible stance to take other than the scripture was the divine truth - if you wanted to live. Fortunately it wasn't worldwide and they didn't succeed.

why do these things if they are by default false?
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post #174 of 198
2/16/05 at 3:19pm
But there is something I don't get?

If todays evangelical fundamentalist recognise that that the old Catholic Church is so corrupt, why on earth do you cling to their Bible, their dogma, their intolerance, their myopia, their history and their deceptions.

If there is any truth in the story's of Jesus, it by default cannot exist in the scriptures created by *evil* Catholicism. There are other accounts of the life of Jesus, they exist in astrotheology, gnostic texts and Islam, all things abhorred by old Catholicism.

So if Catholicism is the evil deception influenced by Satan to lead us astray, why arenot you looking for the truth about God and Jesus in the very places they tell you not to look at?
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post #175 of 198
2/16/05 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally posted by atomic_angel
Then they should know that MarcUK's assumptions are incorrect.

Look, you are Chris Cuilla. You can play stupid with others but we can see your IP address and it is exactly the same. The only reason I out this now is because it is derailing threads and that really pisses me off. You are acting like a child.

You are Chris Cuilla. Stop lying about it and get to posting. You tried an end-around and it didn't work. Face up to it and move on but do not allow it to derail threads anymore, do not gum up the works.

Immediately following this post, anything about this "atomic_angel = Chris Cuilla" matter will be deleted. These idiotic distractions are not welcome. I've already started this policy retroactively.

And to those of you who think it will be cute and clever to call him out in future, don't be surprised if your post gets hosed by my golden stream of justice.

Now... back to this whole religion thing...
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #176 of 198
2/16/05 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
But that is almost exactly what did happen. The Roman Catholics circa 3rd Century, the crusades, murder, torture, burning the entire history of mankind and scientific achievement at the library of Alexandria, supressing other religions into inexistance - for 1300 years until there was no possible stance to take other than the scripture was the divine truth - if you wanted to live. Fortunately it wasn't worldwide and they didn't succeed.

why do these things if they are by default false?


Hold on there 'pardner, IIRC "the muslims" burned the Library at Alexandria, the logic being if the texts conflicted with Islam, they needed the axe, and if they didn't they weren't needed.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #177 of 198
2/16/05 at 4:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by atomic_angel
You might be saying this...but there are many that do believe just that...that science is the source of all truth and that religion is a would of fantasy.

Aside from occasionally documenting ancient human affairs (when not later found to be alterations, exaggerations, misinterpretations or fabrications - usually discovered through scientific analysis), and creating rough frameworks for behavior of groups of people for management, religions are indeed worlds of fantasy.

Christianity had a parasitic relationship with the 3rd century Roman Empire. Once inside, it took over the host irrevocably.

I mourn for the lost knowledge from Alexandria, the destruction of myriad pagan sites and objects...

Quote:
Originally posted by atomic_angel
This is an unfortunate experience but you shouldn't throw out the "baby" of Christian faith and theology with the "bathwater" of poor teaching.

Too bad "some" (oh, but we must ever say 'some' mustn't we? Of course we mean "some") Christians, both current and ancient think/thought differently. Too bad that even just "some" Christians is enough to destroy the right things at the right times to wreck it for the rest of us for eternity.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #178 of 198
2/16/05 at 4:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Hold on there 'pardner, IIRC "the muslims" burned the Library at Alexandria, the logic being if the texts conflicted with Islam, they needed the axe, and if they didn't they weren't needed.


Wow indeed. Considering Muhammed lived 570632 AD.

But we're talking 391 AD.

This is before any of the splits, this is "early Christianity", not the "Roman Catholic Church"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...an-lineage.png

Read this for a taste:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Alexandria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia
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post #179 of 198
2/16/05 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
No I wasn't saying Josephus was forged, I was referring to the passages that are claimed to be written by Josephus that reference Christ, that were forged and inserted into Josephus by the Catholic Church. And their is near universal agreement between scholars - even most respectable Christian ones, that Josephus did not write these passages. Obviously this truth has not filtered out into fundie land yet, but you are making youself seem foolish and naive by claiming Josephus wrote about Jesus.

Ofcourse, if you actually read the links I posted, and not flicked through them for a few minutes and dismissed them, you would know this. It took me a couple of weeks solid reading to examine the whole site. I very much doubt that even someone as smart as you could do it in an hour.

Tell me something dmz, what are you frightened of? If its all bullshitlies, it can do you no harm, and you can obviously point out the numerous deceptions woven by these sites. Funny, but when I was examining creation theory, I read through their literature, thousands of pages of it, often till I couldn't keep my eyes open any longer. I knew that if it was true, aspects of my life would be torn to shreds, but I gave it 110% devotion in the quest of finding the truth, however much it might hurt. Why can't you do the same?

(I really did look at those sites.)

I know about the (one?) passage you're referring to, I just got a pretty cool coffee-table book on Josephus, it shows the disputed text side-by-side.

is there anything else, or just that passage?

As for "being afraid" I wouldn't be here if I were "afraid" of throwing my view out there and having you guys put it to the test. IN FACT what I AM afraid of is huddling together in some bible study class that makes a point of insulating itself from the very culture that I SHOULD be interacting with.

I tell you the truth, probably 99% of the arguments I have used here I have NEVER EVER heard inside of the walls of a Church. Now THAT is scary.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #180 of 198
2/16/05 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Wow indeed. Considering Muhammed lived 570632 AD.

But we're talking 391 AD.

This is before any of the splits, this is "early Christianity", not the "Roman Catholic Church"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...an-lineage.png

Read this for a taste:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Alexandria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesius


Yes, I just doubled checked myself and there multiple stories on this, some say 3rd centruy B.C. some say Julius Cesaer (Every woman's man and every man's woman BTW) and then there are references to a smaller library destroyed much later.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #181 of 198
2/16/05 at 4:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Yes, I just doubled checked myself and there multiple stories on this, some say 3rd centruy B.C. some say Julius Cesaer (Every woman's man and every man's woman BTW) and then there are references to a smaller library destroyed much later.

More to the point is Christianity (now with the vast infrastructure and resources that was the Roman Empire) obliterated all pagan sites/writings/objects it could.

Gone is the tolerance that the 313 edict sought, swept away by the very people it was designed to help.

I know the "destruction" of the Alexandria Library itself is likely multiple events and not even very well documented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

Read the "Destruction of the pagan temples by Theophilus" part.

Cute stuff.

Not unlike:

Hitler's:
Entarte Kunst exhibit

And the Taliban's destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #182 of 198
2/16/05 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
More to the point is Christianity obliterating all pagan sites/writings/objects it could.

I know the "destruction" of the Alexandria Library itself is likely multiple events and not even very well documented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

Read the "Destruction of the pagan temples by Theophilus" part.

Cute stuff.

Not unlike:

Hitler's Entartete Kunst Exhibit

And the Taliban's destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan



....check this

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm

...it seems to pin the blame on Julius Caesar century B.C. ---I'll check my library too......

....as for the Buddas I'm not a of the Muslim stripe, as for anything else in recent history you should check how the communists treated Churches and the clergy after they seized power, how they gave priests solitary confinement for years in between making them serve communion with piss and shit. Check Sudan, Afghanistan, Cyprus, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Algeria, Egypt, Mauritania, Sudan, Azerbaijan, Equatorial Guinea, Morocco, Syria, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Myanmar (Burma), Tajikistan, Bhutan, India, Nepal, Tibet (China), Brunei, Indonesia, Nigeria, Tunisia, Chechnya, Iran, North Korea, Turkey, Chiapas, Iraq, Oman, Turkmenistan, China, Kuwait, Pakistan, United Arab Emirates, Colombia, Laos, Qatar, Uzbekistan, Comoro Islands, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, Cuba, Malaysia, Somalia, and Yemen for how the great white Christian oppresors are burning libraries and destroying artifacts.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #183 of 198
2/16/05 at 5:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
....as for the Buddas I'm not a of the Muslim stripe, as for anything else in recent history you should check how the communists treated Churches and the clergy after they seized power, how they gave priests solitary confinement for years in between making them serve communion with piss and shit. Check Sudan, Afghanistan, Cyprus, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Algeria, Egypt, Mauritania, Sudan, Azerbaijan, Equatorial Guinea, Morocco, Syria, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Myanmar (Burma), Tajikistan, Bhutan, India, Nepal, Tibet (China), Brunei, Indonesia, Nigeria, Tunisia, Chechnya, Iran, North Korea, Turkey, Chiapas, Iraq, Oman, Turkmenistan, China, Kuwait, Pakistan, United Arab Emirates, Colombia, Laos, Qatar, Uzbekistan, Comoro Islands, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, Cuba, Malaysia, Somalia, and Yemen for how the great white Christian oppresors are burning libraries and destroying artifacts.

What's your point? Other religions, cultures and ideologies are oppressive, not just Christianity. I kinda knew that.

But your rosy picture of Christianity doesn't hold up well. Sure, you can point out other "worse" or more oppressive religions, but it's rather like a man accused of beating his wife telling the cop "But my neighbor beats his wife too!". Not the best defense.

I don't care about the inexact details of the Library of Alexandria destruction(s)/plunderings (although the various barely-known things lost were priceless and would no doubt have enriched and advanced our civilizations immeasurably).

I care about the rich history of Christian oppression going back to as far as we have records.

Not exclusively. I'm more than happy to talk about other religions and their failings.

But this is the price you pay for being the top religion, you get more attention. I'm sure we'll get to the others eventually.

Again, I'm more against the idea of any religion being deemed "the one".

Christianity has proved itself not merely a religion but brutal, uncaring government(s) in many forms over the centuries, with very few exceptions.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #184 of 198
2/16/05 at 6:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
....check this

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm


Pardon me if I prefer not to take James Hannan's word for anything, although I'm sure he gets the majority of facts right.

And no, you don't need to take my word for anything either. I'm not here to change anyone, just to discuss pros and cons.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #185 of 198
2/16/05 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
But your rosy picture of Christianity doesn't hold up well. Sure, you can point out other "worse" or more oppressive religions, but it's rather like a man accused of beating his wife telling the cop "But my neighbor beats his wife too!". Not the best defense.

There's no 'rosy' picture to paint, But you can't equate ongoing oppression by the atheists and Muslims with the relatively distant past of official Christain malfeasance. If you are going to weigh 'religions' on their merits, you are going to have to allow that Christianity has mellowed considerably over the centuries, while holding the same scutiny for those who are now, at this very minute doing what you are concerned with. You're not doing that very well.

soooooommmmmhow the big, bad Christians are, or can be characterised by, this level of oppresion? Or did they recognize it for what it was and leave it behind? Who are the troublemakers today? The Christians? The atheists? The Muslims? Who? Are all religions just as brutal? If a religion were to realize the errors of its ways and relent would you be willing to note this -- or continually hold up the practices of 500 years ago as current operating proceedure?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #186 of 198
2/16/05 at 7:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
...you can't equate ongoing oppression by the atheists and Muslims with the relatively distant past of official Christain malfeasance. If you are going to weigh 'religions' on their merits, you are going to have to allow that Christianity has mellowed considerably over the centuries, while holding the same scutiny for those who are now, at this very minute doing what you are concerned with.

Distant? We can play recent too, I just went back to 313 as the point at which Christianity could really get going. Plus there was all this inaccurate reference to "Roman Catholic Church" as being the "bad guys" (by both you and MarcUK) when in fact that didn't even come about until the 11th century.

Even prior to 313AD Christians were violent mobs, with tit for tat violence much like we have today in the Middle East. Post 313AD they were more so but with more and more "authority" over time, the more the "pagan" Roman Empire was infiltrated.

Something about their being right and everyone else being wrong I think.

Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
soooooommmmmhow the big, bad Christians are, or can be characterised by, this level of oppresion? Or did they recognize it for what it was and leave it behind? Who are the troublemakers today? The Christians? The atheists? The Muslims? Who? Are all religions just as brutal? If a religion were to realize the errors of its ways and relent would you be willing to note this -- or continually hold up the practices of 500 years ago as current operating proceedure?

We are seeing an identical process. Americans have obstensibly the same freedoms that Romans did around 313 to worship whomever they please.

We have many things like pornography, music videos, video games, nascar, pro wrestling, boxing, football, drugs, unprotected sex, promiscuity, lack of modesty, etc. etc. all those exact things that the "pagan" Rome had.

And we have religious extremists in all corners of the government now, pushing their one specific version of Christianity on not only the rest of us as individuals but in academia, sciences, the marketplace, the media...

They have no tolerance for tolerance. They cannot turn the other cheek, they'd rather pull out your tongue (figuratively for now).

Can you seriously deny this?

<Insert obligatory deflection such as "if Muslims controlled the U.S. government how many of these "freedoms" do you think you'd still have?" here>

None, I'm sure. Same for Jews, Hindus, etc. I'm sure any one group will eventually try to influence the others. But that's what is (or was??) special about American government, it allows for diversity.
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post #187 of 198
2/16/05 at 8:06pm
This is sounding more like a precrime indictment all the time. There is a clear arc for the Christian experience, what it had stood for and what it has done.

IF

you look around you today, you DO NOT see Christians throwing people in Jail for thought crimes, forcing anyone into Churches or denying ANYONE the right to vote. Nooooooooo, you see the exact opposite.


BUT

if you do look to those who are denying people the right to vote, who ARE throwing people in Jail, who do prosecute for thought crimes you are forced to look at not just 'religion' but many other "nonreligious" corners as well.

ALSO

If you are using the violence litmus test to convict "religion" of crimes agianst humanity, you need to open a GREAT BIG chapter for paganism at large. Slavery, coercion, incessant warring are not the exclusive, or even prevelant domain of the 'religious'.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #188 of 198
2/16/05 at 8:41pm
Thread Starter 
Saying pagans or atheists were violent doesn't excuse Christianity for it's actions, particularly since it's supposedly "better". Of course it's exactly this same thinking it is the "better" way (indeed the ONLY way) that gets it into so much trouble, isn't it?

Christianity saying it is the ONLY way...
Judaism saying ONLY they are the chosen people...(new converts aren't technically ever really Jewish depending on their lineage)
Islam saying you MUST surrender to Islam...

Etc...

There are many religions (Indic) Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism...where proselytizing is not practiced and simultaneously they do not bar others from joining or prevent them from having a mix of faiths (with certain exceptions).

Wars kinda happen when you compel other people to join or say you are a divine race, what can I say besides, "don't do it".
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #189 of 198
2/16/05 at 9:06pm
Okay, as you wish.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #190 of 198
2/17/05 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
you look around you today, you DO NOT see Christians throwing people in Jail for thought crimes, forcing anyone into Churches or denying ANYONE the right to vote. Nooooooooo, you see the exact opposite.

Depends on your benchmark - if you take a State such as the US or certain South American countries or even France, Spain or Britain as being Christian then you do see these things all the time.

If you use the Bible as a benchmark of what Christianity is then no, you are right, you do not see these things.

The problem is that both these aspects are mutually exclusive so we get a circular argument. You need to decide which litmus test you are using - appearance or reality - and then apply it universally to have any validity.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #191 of 198
2/17/05 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Depends on your benchmark - if you take a State such as the US or certain South American countries or even France, Spain or Britain as being Christian then you do see these things all the time.

If you use the Bible as a benchmark of what Christianity is then no, you are right, you do not see these things.

The problem is that both these aspects are mutually exclusive so we get a circular argument. You need to decide which litmus test you are using - appearance or reality - and then apply it universally to have any validity.

very good point

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #192 of 198
2/18/05 at 10:35am
The main danger of religiousity is the that believers see themselves as the "chosen ones", In many followers minds their believe or the way they believe is what makes them better or more prone to eternal bliss than other people who do not believe in the same way.

The utter perversion of this is that religions based on the judaic one god idea are completely at odds with each other about who's prophet was the one who really represented god's ideas about how human life should be administered.

One of the most significant events of all religious believe was galileo's factual discovery that the earth is round. At that time the pope was believed to be in contact with god the allmighty, now he had to admit for the very first time that god was wrong. What a shock. The church never recovered from this.

This caused a schism of religion and science which has confused people into abandoning spirituality (if god is wrong...). Now we are faced with a time in which we still need the "laws" of Abraham and Moses but we know that "god" is a jewish hoax and it's hard to deal with that knowledge.
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post #193 of 198
2/18/05 at 10:51am
Thread Starter 
The "hoax" in general is that certain individuals becomes more aware of how certain phenomena work to the point where they can use it reliably to control large groups of people, either keeping them in fear, making them work harder or making them kill others or when it suits them, increasing overall prosperity.

This happens in every culture, no matter how far back you go.

When you think of "religion" as "science/knowledge abused as a tool for government" you get a pretty good sketch of the way religion, science and government have been abused by nearly every race or culture.

Tides, time, seasons, weather, maps, ship/vehicles, agriculture, architecture, irrigation, navigation...this is all stuff that science provides answers for but in ancient times it is always co-opted by religions as their own creation. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" which, when use by those that want to rule a people, can help them seem to have supernatural powers or at least the knowledge of the gods.

When I say science I'm typically referring to "knowledge" of real world phenomena, whether or not it holds up to later more rigorous standards.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #194 of 198
2/18/05 at 11:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jamac
One of the most significant events of all religious believe was galileo's factual discovery that the earth is round. At that time the pope was believed to be in contact with god the allmighty, now he had to admit for the very first time that god was wrong. What a shock. The church never recovered from this.

Ptolemy and many before him pretty much knew the Earth was round. Al-Khwarizmi's later math pretty much proved it. Galileo's crows nest business to me isn't as impressive (kinda sad actually, considering Al-Khwarizmi's work), but speaks more to how dumbed-down Europeans were at that time thanks to their Christian overlords.

The Galileo/Church thing was over Copernican heliocentrism vs. the Church's geocentric model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudius_Ptolemaeus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khwarizmi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundial

Chinese, Egyptian...who know how many cultures figured it out.

And really, Columbus and Magellan are the first in modern history to "really" have proved it that I know of, if doing is proof.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #195 of 198
2/18/05 at 11:42am
johnq, I think there is nothing worse than the enternal sunshine of the spotless, unexamined presupposition.


This is lame.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #196 of 198
2/18/05 at 11:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
johnq, I think there is nothing worse than the enternal sunshine of the spotless, unexamined presupposition.


This is lame.

Could you be more....specific?




</THX 1138 references>
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #197 of 198
2/18/05 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Could you be more....specific?




</THX 1138 references>


I'm leaving this one there. SOME people don't GET a three-day weekend. I have blabbed on this all I care to, and it's balls-to-the-wall here at the primate house.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #198 of 198
2/18/05 at 12:10pm
Thread Starter 
I'd talk about other religions but none have been so literally imperialistic for so long as to have much lasting effect* in the world.

The big C pops up a lot, sorry.





* By that I mean primarily negative.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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