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post #41 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Very Funny

But without strict trinitarian doctrine with the person of Christ as intermingled god/man, you are left to make up what ever you want in the realm of the 'wholly other' -- The Flash and Shazam as homosexual godmates etc., etc. There is a complete disconnect to the realm of the infinite. No other religion solves this problem.

I would beg to differ. Let us not forget that as far as human spirituality goes, Christianity is a relatively young religion. Islam is even younger. Unlike these two religions, the ancient beliefs of the East take relating to the infinte as the point of the whole spiritual exercise. Eastern peoples in China and India were leading civilized lives and pondering the mysteries of the universe when Europeans were still trying to figure out footwear. I for one happen to believe that they got it right the first time.

Take the whole cycle of reincarnation (not just a Hindu belief). A soul switches forms like clothing until the cycle is broken and it achieves Nirvana... essentially becomes one with the universe. Doesn't this sound an awful lot like the first law of thermodynamics? Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change forms. As energy is spent, the entropy of the universe is increased until finally all useful energy is used and all processes cease. I think the ancients understood the universe a lot better than we give them credit for. Perhaps they were as advanced spiritually back then as we are scientifically today. It just goes to show that all "progress" is not necessarily progress. Sorry to stray from addressing the quote above, but I hardly think that Christianity addresses "the infinite."

At it's most distilled, Christianity proposes that we are all born sinners and that we can find the grace and forgiveness of God by embracing Christ. We then are taken to Heaven or Hell all the while maintaining our Earthly identity. To me, this sounds like sidestepping the whole idea of infinity. "You" are born "You" and remain "You" throughout the eternity of the afterlife. The only thing "infinite" about this belief is that "You" will be around forever'n'ever amen, thusly satisfying that oldest Western dream of never dying.
post #42 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Edited because I woke up like the proverbial bear.

Read the Mahabharata or the Rg Veda. Go and buy a collection of haikus, even, and read the notes at the back. Look up 'avatar' on the internet. Read about Khrishna, Siva and Visnu. Go to Amazaon and order Herman Hesse's 'Siddhartha' if you want something like a novel.


oh but no -- all other gods by definition are either "out of all relation" to the universe or are "correlative" to, or derivative of the universe (not the stars and planets, but 'exeistence'). This 'being as such', or 'being in general', is what is flummoxing you.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #43 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Kishan
I would beg to differ. Let us not forget that as far as human spirituality goes, Christianity is a relatively young religion. Islam is even younger. Unlike these two religions, the ancient beliefs of the East take relating to the infinte as the point of the whole spiritual exercise. Eastern peoples in China and India were leading civilized lives and pondering the mysteries of the universe when Europeans were still trying to figure out footwear. I for one happen to believe that they got it right the first time.

Take the whole cycle of reincarnation (not just a Hindu belief). A soul switches forms like clothing until the cycle is broken and it achieves Nirvana... essentially becomes one with the universe. Doesn't this sound an awful lot like the first law of thermodynamics? Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change forms. As energy is spent, the entropy of the universe is increased until finally all useful energy is used and all processes cease. I think the ancients understood the universe a lot better than we give them credit for. Perhaps they were as advanced spiritually back then as we are scientifically today. It just goes to show that all "progress" is not necessarily progress. Sorry to stray from addressing the quote above, but I hardly think that Christianity addresses "the infinite."

At it's most distilled, Christianity proposes that we are all born sinners and that we can find the grace and forgiveness of God by embracing Christ. We then are taken to Heaven or Hell all the while maintaining our Earthly identity. To me, this sounds like sidestepping the whole idea of infinity. "You" are born "You" and remain "You" throughout the eternity of the afterlife. The only thing "infinite" about this belief is that "You" will be around forever'n'ever amen, thusly satisfying that oldest Western dream of never dying.

I think the eastern religions have 'all as one', in their assumtions of being as such, and this generally reduces all distinctions 'ultimately'. The concept of the self-contained God, who is able to penetrate (no Jokes, Hassan i Sabbah) the universe without becoming correlative to it, but still not dissconnected makes these two systems very, very different.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #44 of 198
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Very Funny

But without strict trinitarian doctrine with the person of Christ as intermingled god/man, you are left to make up what ever you want in the realm of the 'wholly other' -- The Flash and Shazam as homosexual godmates etc., etc. There is a complete disconnect to the realm of the infinite. No other religion solves this problem.

How is Christ not just a demigod with a good set of ghost writers and publicists?

Your requirements for a religion to be valid (for lack of another term) mean nothing considering Christianity was not one thing. It became what it is today through 2000 years of adjustment and recreation for the purposes of patching up holes in itself as well as letting the masses continue their pagan practices, but under another name. It is a bread and circus, "tell them what they want them to hear" mish-mash of various pagan/Roman religions.

That Christianity can tick off each box in your checklist tells me only that as it (Roman Empire) attempted to squelch dissent, it incorporated things that were convenient and beneficial for those in power.

In otherwords, feature creep.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
post #45 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
How is Christ not just a demigod with a good set of ghost writers and publicists?

Your requirements for a religion to be valid (for lack of another term) mean nothing considering Christianity was not one thing. It became what it is today through 2000 years of adjustment and recreation for the purposes of patching up holes in itself as well as letting the masses continue their pagan practices, but under another name. It is a bread and circus, "tell them what they want them to hear" mish-mash of various pagan/Roman religions.

That Christianity can tick off each box in your checklist tells me only that as it (Roman Empire) attempted to squelch dissent, it incorporated things that were convenient and beneficial for those in power.

In otherwords, feature creep.

Christ isn't a demigod, but not for a lack of trying.

Your statement on the History of Christian theology isn't quite accurate, the framework that I've mentioned has always been there in the text, but it did take 400-500 years to make it official, and to break out of a penchant for synthesising it with Greek thought.

As to the 'interesting' features of the Roman church, that is indeed 'feature creep' of the Church, but only in terms of a static framework.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #46 of 198
dmz, resolve this for me with your Christian theology.

About half way through the story of Jesus an interesting thing happens. John the Baptist reappears and is beheaded. "he has risen from the dead!" says Matthew 14:2 Recall at the beginning of the story how Aquarius/John the Baptist moved below the Western horizon at sunset/was put in prison as the year went from January to February and the Sun traveled from Aquarius to Pisces. Each zodiac constellation in turn goes below the horizon at sunset as each month passes. After six months the constellation of Aquarius begins to rise on the Eastern horizon at sunset. And it appears that the head of Aquarius is cut off by the horizon. This is John the Baptist rising from the dead, the dead being those who are below the earth. This is John the Baptist being beheaded.

Infact, do me a favour and resolve all this story for me, good chap.

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religi....htm#solarmyth
post #47 of 198
(toDMZ)
Its almost fun to watch someone tie themselves into rhetorical knots in order to preserve the unnecessary . . . .

You have all the answers, even if they are tortured and byzantine, and seem to know nothing about asian thought . . . nothing except how to, supposedly, dismiss it for failing to live up to imposed and unnecessary criteria . . . a criteria that we don't actually need except when Christianity is involved:

Your Christianity defines the problems, in fact, creates them, and makes them specific such that only Cristianity can solve them . . .
supposedly

When you get caught in that kind of rhetorical-logic bind, and are forced to endless circles of trinitarian this that and the other, its best to put the book down and look out the window . . . or better yet, simply stop thinking about false logical mumbos and quiet the mind . . .


Asian religions are not 'Ah-Hah' religions . . . they take time and constant effort of real applied activity: (meditation and contemplation) they don't need a McSaved-moment of 'evrything is good all of a sudden' . . . (though there are glimpses -Sartori, Shunyata) That is why so many refuse to pay attention: it doesn't give them that good feeling immediately like a fast-food package . . .
They are worth looking at.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #48 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
dmz, rectify this in your Christian theology.

About half way through the story of Jesus an interesting thing happens. John the Baptist reappears and is beheaded. "he has risen from the dead!" says Matthew 14:2 Recall at the beginning of the story how Aquarius/John the Baptist moved below the Western horizon at sunset/was put in prison as the year went from January to February and the Sun traveled from Aquarius to Pisces. Each zodiac constellation in turn goes below the horizon at sunset as each month passes. After six months the constellation of Aquarius begins to rise on the Eastern horizon at sunset. And it appears that the head of Aquarius is cut off by the horizon. This is John the Baptist rising from the dead, the dead being those who are below the earth. This is John the Baptist being beheaded.

The text of Matthew 14 is basically a recap of what happened with Herod and how he got hornswoggled into killing John the Baptist. The personal and textual critisisms of Christianity got underway with Celsus in the year 150 -- in living memory of the disciples (at least John). Celsus was convinced that all involved were real people, but magicians and not who they said they were. He quoted the new testament about 60 times in his blistering critique.

I don't do astrology, but I've heard that some wise men did. When I was a kid we planted by the astrological sings even put in fence posts by the moonsign. If there is any correlation to signs in the stars to the rising and falling of kings, etc. I would not know where to begin.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #49 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
The text of Matthew 14 is basically a recap of what happened with Herod and how he got hornswoggled into killing John the Baptist. The personal and textual critisisms of Christianity got underway with Celsus in the year 150 -- in living memory of the disciples (at least John). Celsus was convinced that all involved were real people, but magicians and not who they said they were. He quoted the new testament about 60 times in his blistering critique.

I don't do astrology, but I've heard that some wise men did. When I was a kid we planted by the astrological sings even put in fence posts by the moonsign. If there is any correlation to signs in the stars to the rising and falling of kings, etc. I would not know where to begin.

theres your first mistake, there is NO astrology here. This is an explanation of how the ancients perceived the stars which is ASTRONOMY. Nothing voodoo or evil here.

You and your likeminded friend really enjoy holding the theory of Evolution up to close scrutiny. Well I think it's only fair that your little fantasy is handled in the same manner. So go Goddamn read every page of my link. That goes for DMZ, NaplesX, Chris Cuilla, Benzene, Fellowship et all. Do it in the persuit of integrity, honesty and decency.
post #50 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
(toDMZ)
Its almost fun to watch someone tie themselves into rhetorical knots in order to preserve the unnecessary . . . .

You have all the answers, even if they are tortured and byzantine, and seem to know nothing about asian thought . . . nothing except how to, supposedly, dismiss it for failing to live up to imposed and unnecessary criteria . . . a criteria that we don't actually need except when Christianity is involved:

Your Christianity defines the problems, in fact, creates them, and makes them specific such that only Cristianity can solve them . . .
supposedly

When you get caught in that kind of rhetorical-logic bind, and are forced to endless circles of trinitarian this that and the other, its best to put the book down and look out the window . . . or better yet, simply stop thinking about false logical mumbos and quiet the mind . . .


Asian religions are not 'Ah-Hah' religions . . . they take time and constant effort of real applied activity: (meditation and contemplation) they don't need a McSaved-moment of 'evrything is good all of a sudden' . . . (though there are glimpses -Sartori, Shunyata) That is why so many refuse to pay attention: it doesn't give them that good feeling immediately like a fast-food package . . .
They are worth looking at.

I dunno about torurted, but Trinitarian doctrine solves 'the problem'.

I'm not going to pretend to have a thorough grounding in eastern relgion, except what the basic metaphysical premise is, and how that effects a broad solution to the problem of the One and the Many. This is NOT code for "we have better people than you," or "my history is less bloody than yours".

The 'endless circles' is unavoidable due the nature of us all to be aubject to our presuppositions:
Quote:
On the one hand, Reality can only be what the intellect of man, using the law of contradiction, says that it must be. On the other hand, Reality can only be that about which the intellect of man, again using the law of contradiction, can say nothing at all.
That is, man says in one breath that the nature of Reality and therefore all events (facts) within that Reality cannot be other than the law of contradiction will allow. He thereby tells us what Reality is. Yet man, in the next breath, tells us that we have no absolutely certain knowledge about the nature of Reality at all, for Kant has shown us that the law of contradiction as posited by man is not applicable to Reality. Reality, the Real, transcends logic. He thereby tells us that he cannot utter one word about what Reality is.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #51 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
theres your first mistake, there is NO astrology here. This is an explanation of how the ancients perceived the stars which is ASTRONOMY. Nothing voodoo or evil here.

You and your likeminded friend really enjoy holding the theory of Evolution up to close scrutiny. Well I think it's only fair that your little fantasy is handled in the same manner. So go Goddamn read every page of my link. That goes for DMZ, NaplesX, Chris Cuilla, Benzene, Fellowship et all. Do it in the persuit of integrity, honesty and decency.


link?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #52 of 198
World, tell me, is it by sheer utterly unexplainable coincidence that dmz's computer is the only one in existance that hasn't shown the link. Must be an act of God...
post #53 of 198
just for you DMZ...here you go...

careful now, it contains material which explains things in a manner you might find very disturbing...Every page though, thats only fair.

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religi....htm#solarmyth
post #54 of 198
Thread Starter 
Easy fellas, lets try to have this thread reach 5 or 10 pages. But pretty good so far.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #55 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
World, tell me, is it by sheer utterly unexplainable coincidence that dmz's computer is the only one in existance that hasn't shown the link. Must be an act of God...


?? I didn't check in your profile......where was it supposes to be?


(I'll read your link, though)


EDIT: Duh!!the link was just further up the page

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #56 of 198
Thread Starter 
Great site, although a bit too far on the "contemptuous of Christianity" side of things for it to be taken more seriously by others.

With a little editing and polish it could be far more influential.

Now, I essentially am contemptuous of Christianity and most religions/cults, but I realize it's best to try to set it aside when trying to bring some logic to these people or show them the bigger picture and facts surrounding why their religion is the way it is.

"True believers" just get more entrenched and defensive otherwise.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
post #57 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
The 'endless circles' is unavoidable due the nature of us all to be aubject to our presuppositions:
Quote:
Originally from ???
On the one hand, Reality can only be what the intellect of man, using the law of contradiction, says that it must be. On the other hand, Reality can only be that about which the intellect of man, again using the law of contradiction, can say nothing at all.
That is, man says in one breath that the nature of Reality and therefore all events (facts) within that Reality cannot be other than the law of contradiction will allow. He thereby tells us what Reality is. Yet man, in the next breath, tells us that we have no absolutely certain knowledge about the nature of Reality at all, for Kant has shown us that the law of contradiction as posited by man is not applicable to Reality. Reality, the Real, transcends logic. He thereby tells us that he cannot utter one word about what Reality is.

Do they make special KY jelly for the brain so that when the mental masturbation gets this furious you don't get brain blisters?

Put some error bars and reasonable qualifiers about what we mean by the term "reality" and what we believe we can say about reality, and this manufactured dilemma goes away. It's a dilemma forced into being by black-and-white thinking. Then again, if you make the dilemma go away, you can't be proud of how you've mastered such tortured, impress-your-friends, baffle-your-adversaries logic.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #58 of 198
Thread Starter 
I'm enjoying this article on a Christian's attempt to justify why we see stars if the universe is only 6,000 years old since light travels so slowly at such distances...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c-decay.html



Nice try...

Perfect example of what we were talking about, the need to make a religion/theory fit your pre-established criteria, when it's the criteria itself that is the problem.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
post #59 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline

Do they make special KY jelly for the brain so that when the mental masturbation gets this furious you don't get brain blisters?

Put some error bars and reasonable qualifiers about what we mean by the term "reality" and what we believe we can say about reality, and this manufactured dilemma goes away. It's a dilemma forced into being by black-and-white thinking. Then again, if you make the dilemma go away, you can't be proud of how you've mastered such tortured, impress-your-friends, baffle-your-adversaries logic.


Nice. But this is exactly what has been argued about since the greeks.

Actually I await pfflam's response, but I am assuming that he is not entirely uncomfortable with Kant.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #60 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
I'm enjoying this article on a Christian's attempt to justify why we see stars if the universe is only 6,000 years old since light travels so slowly at such distances...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c-decay.html



Nice try...

Perfect example of what we were talking about, the need to make a religion/theory fit your pre-established criteria, when it's the criteria itself that is the problem.

WOW!!!! So am I to understand that the speed of light has decayed exponentially since creation only to level of with dC/dt=0 since 1960? What nonesense! A true exponential curve will never reach dy/dx=0 even at x=infinity. What is scary is that to people without an education these faux-scientists could sound authoritative. Crap that wraps itself up in a white coat is still crap! Hmmmmm... I wonder if the reason that neo-cons' budgets are cruel to education is that a good education makes people too smart to be drawn in by stuff like this!
post #61 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
I'm enjoying this article on a Christian's attempt to justify why we see stars if the universe is only 6,000 years old since light travels so slowly at such distances...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c-decay.html



Nice try...

Perfect example of what we were talking about, the need to make a religion/theory fit your pre-established criteria, when it's the criteria itself that is the problem.

I see c-decay on that link, c-decay is an argument creationists should never use.

Have fun with the starlight question -- but if even if the time contraints in Genesis are not figurative, this still does not free you from offering both a cohesive metapysical/material framework to stand on while you criticise. And if you want use the "hey I don't believe in anything I just want to critisise" argument, what business do you, in any constructive sense, have critisising Christianity anymore than a graffitti artist has plying his craft at the Louvre?

??

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #62 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Nice. But this is exactly what has been argued about since the greeks.

Yes, and there's been a lot of mental masturbation since the Greeks.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #63 of 198
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kishan
I'm enjoying this article on a Christian's attempt to justify why we see stars if the universe is only 6,000 years old since light travels so slowly at such distances...

Ok, I didn't phrase that quite right

I mean ....since light takes millions of years to travel such vast distances...
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
post #64 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
Yes, and there's been a lot of mental masturbation since the Greeks.


I'd have to agree with you.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #65 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
just for you DMZ...here you go...

careful now, it contains material which explains things in a manner you might find very disturbing...Every page though, thats only fair.

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religi....htm#solarmyth


I scanned that site, it seems a bit scattered, although I wouldn't suprise me bit if the arc of human history werer echoed in the stars.

Is the thing with that site's premise that the Zodiac incidents were translated into a story? Or that the events happened and then they were shoehorned into the story?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #66 of 198
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I scanned that site, it seems a bit scattered, although I wouldn't suprise me bit if the arc of human history werer echoed in the stars.

Is the thing with that site's premise that the Zodiac incidents were translated into a story? Or that the events happened and then they were shoehorned into the story?


Zoroastrianism...Mithraism...

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/ref...html#Mithraism

How many parallels and origins do people need before people think "Gee, I guess my religion really is just a collection of old myths, used by a dying governmental empire-turned-religion, but I can still be good to people and live a good life whether there is actually a deity or not."
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #67 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Zoroastrianism...Mithraism...

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/ref...html#Mithraism

How many parallels and origins do people need before people think "Gee, I guess my religion really is just a collection of old myths, used by a dying governmental empire-turned-religion, but I can still be good to people and live a good life whether there is actually a deity or not."


Yes but are you saying the records we have from the early church, complete with verbage/times/places of that time, along with Celsus' organized cirtique barely 120 years after the death of Christ, Jospehus, bla, bla, bla. --- that all of these were manufactured, and the people/events that they name never existed?

It's just too much to ask.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #68 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
...but I can still be good to people and live a good life whether there is actually a deity or not."

The current right-wing flavor of Christianity has nothing to do with being good to people or having a good life. Oh, they'll claim those things happen because of their Faith, but they're really incidental. Faith not deeds, you know. It's all about getting on the Big Guy's good side, about being on the Winning Team which gets more than a mere good life, but an eternal afterlife, and not being one of the losers who are tormented and tortured for eternity -- as per the designs of an Infinitely Loving God.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #69 of 198
I saw a show on the discovery channel that claimed that Christianity was created by the Romans in order to try to convert the Jews to a more peaceful religion ("Give unto the Romans what belongs to Rome" etc). Any truth to that?
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #70 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I saw a show on the discovery channel that claimed that Christianity was created by the Romans in order to try to convert the Jews to a more peaceful religion ("Give unto the Romans what belongs to Rome" etc). Any truth to that?

Rome and Christianity were antithetical, I doubt that would be possible. Besides --- and this goes along with MarcUK's thing --- we would have some documentation of this, if it were true.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #71 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
...That goes for DMZ, NaplesX, Chris Cuilla, Benzene, Fellowship et all.

I know I've been away for awhile, but I take exception to not being included in a list of Marc's adversaries.


The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #72 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Yes but are you saying the records we have from the early church, complete with verbage/times/places of that time, along with Celsus' organized cirtique barely 120 years after the death of Christ, Jospehus, bla, bla, bla. --- that all of these were manufactured, and the people/events that they name never existed?

It's just too much to ask.

It's too much to ask? This is coming from someone who disbelieves anything any paeleontologist, geologist, archeologist, cosmologist, geneticist or physicist has written since 1870. It's too much to ask? That's never been a problem for you before.
post #73 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
I know I've been away for awhile, but I take exception to not being included in a list of Marc's adversaries.




Note the 'et al' bit.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #74 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
It's too much to ask? This is coming from someone who disbelieves anything any paeleontologist, geologist, archeologist, cosmologist, geneticist or physicist has written since 1870. It's too much to ask? That's never been a problem for you before.

Yes, of course, I forgot about that.

(But you still don't have my permission to ignore written records in the study of history.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #75 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK

1. At least Science tries to find an answer to the Questions. Religion wraps itself up in bullshit and dogma and its devotees largely stick their heads up their ass and brainwash themselves in believing the best thing that suits their selfish need to feel a purpose and meaning.

2. Its so obvious the Bible is a bunch of lies and crap,

1. I could go ahead and say that "everyone" in the Church of Satan is a conceited rock star, but then I'd just be talking about Marilyn Manson and Jimmy Page (unless I'm mistaken about his involvement), who are incedentally the only big names I'm aware of in your organization. Religion doesn't necessarily wrap itself up in "bullshit and dogma," nor does it not try to answer questions. Making blanket judgments is something that both a wise humanist and a wise Christian will not do. I do know a lot of Christians, though, and I'd go so far as to say that most good Christians don't have their heads up their asses. I'd also say, though, that it's very difficult to be a good Christian. . . In fact, it's every bit as hard as being a good Buddhist/humanist, with the added stress of having an extra layer of supernatural involvement.

2. And I say that it's so obvious that hedonism, and humanism in general, is a wholly unfulfilling compromise marked by limited aspiration. You may think different, but in the end you will have a harder time proving to yourself, or anyone else, that the Bible is full of lies than I will have proving to myself that God exists.
Cat: the other white meat
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Cat: the other white meat
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post #76 of 198
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
(But you still don't have my permission to ignore written records in the study of history.)

What the does any written or other type of record prove about any actual thing or event?

Christianity only proves that a concerted effort spanning millennia can glue together a dogma that is "good enough" to get a considerable number of people to believe it wholly.

But then, other religions do a good enoguh job of it in their own way.

How many fables and frameworks can we fabricate and still fool most o fthe people most of the time?

Anyone got a spare infinite amount of monkeys and time handy?

L. Ron Hubbard sat on his fat ass banging out yarns for long enough to start a significantly sized (unfortunately) cult...guess anyone can do it.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #77 of 198
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #78 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
What the does any written or other type of record prove about any actual thing or event?

that was a reference to the axiom that, unless there are written records, any take on history is COMPLETLY speculative.

Quote:
Originally posted by johnq Christianity only proves that a concerted effort spanning millennia can glue together a dogma that is "good enough" to get a considerable number of people to believe it wholly.[/B]

This "good enough" dogma isn't some rabbit the masses chased for diversion for 2000 years -- you shouldn't ignore, wholesale, what has driven western culture since Christianity overpowered Rome. Even more so, you shouldn't ignore this same metaphysical framework that has survived a concerted effort to unseat it on multiple levels, for the last several hundred years.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #79 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
This "good enough" dogma isn't some rabbit the masses chased for diversion for 2000 years -- you shouldn't ignore, wholesale, what has driven western culture since Christianity overpowered Rome. Even more so, you shouldn't ignore this same metaphysical framework that has survived a concerted effort to unseat it on multiple levels, for the last several hundred years.

It didn't 'overpower' Rome. What nonsense. It was a crisis cult, one of many, adopted out of desperation. The Rev. Martin Luther King could just as easily have been a priest of the Child of the Undying Sun and you'd be arguing that the World Parents came from a Cosmic Egg and formed the continents from the Divine Placenta.

There's been no effort to 'unseat' Christianity for several hundred years other than reason, and the same forces have been acting, with far less success I might add, on Buddhism and Hinduism.
post #80 of 198
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Yes, of course, I forgot about that.

(But you still don't have my permission to ignore written records in the study of history.)

Well, OK. Fair's fair. I won't ignore historical records if you won't ignore the the last century-and-a-half's research in geology, paeleontology, genetics, cosmology and physics. How's that?
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