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970MP heat info from ibm

post #1 of 47
Thread Starter 
Click here for info from IBM

it says higher frequency MP's will run hotter than any ibm chips before.
post #2 of 47
A little late, I think . Link (check out today's posts on page 2).
post #3 of 47
looks like Apple was definitely thinking ahead when it made the PM so frikin big
post #4 of 47
DOCUMENT HAS BEEN DELETED. Perfect way to confirm Apple is into this ;-)
post #5 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by The General
Click here for info from IBM

it says higher frequency MP's will run hotter than any ibm chips before.

Actually thats not what it said.

It said:

The higher frequency grade versions of the 970MP consume higher amounts of power than earlier IBM microprocessors do, and that can cause temperature issues.
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post #6 of 47
Yet the e600 based 8641D from Freescale is Dual Core, uses DDR2, has an integrated memory controller (and North Bridge for that matter), uses an external FSB of 667MHz and an internal speed of 3-4x that (meaning CPU frequency of up to 2.6MHz), is PCI-express and even has 4 1Gb network lines, only consumes 15W of power. Who wants a 970MP when you can get a pimped Freescale which will perform better, and is cooler.

I now know what I want in an updated PowerBook. But only if it has the new 2 button mouse/trackpad which the other rumor sites are talking about.
post #7 of 47
What gives you the idea it will perform better? Have you ever seen either, or one of them?
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post #8 of 47
Comparing Freescale CPUs and IBMs is pointless as long as shipping dates and numbers are unknown.

Sure the e600 look to be e fantastic chip to ship now and use from the big tower down to the ibook., better than current G5 and IBM 970

However, if it ships in the future it has to compete with future versions of various CPUs.

The IBM 970MP will consume more power that is generate more heat then previous version. If that actually makes them run hotter depends on 3 factors. 1. The way they are cooled. 2. surface heat density, that is has the surface area of the chip increased as much as the heat output. 3. Local hotspots on the chip, hopefully IBM has used the revision work making the 970 a dual core to also work on hotspots and other stuff.8)
post #9 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by smallstepforman
uses an external FSB of 667MHz and an internal speed of 3-4x that (meaning CPU frequency of up to 2.6MHz)

The 8641D fact sheet doesn't state this. What it does state is that it has an internal, integrated or on-chip MPX bus that operates up to 667 MHz real clock. That's just a little bit more bandwidth than the 7 month old 1.8 GHz iMac G5's external FSB. Wonder why they even bothered having dual DDR-II memory controllers.

For external I/O, the 8641D will have a PCIe x8 channel, a choice between another PCIe x8 channel or a RapidIO channel, the aforementioned ethernet, and a slow 32 bit local bus.

Quote:
Who wants a 970MP when you can get a pimped Freescale which will perform better, and is cooler.

I still don't have warm fuzzies that the 8641D will go into an Apple machine. It just has too much extraneous I/O, and what I/O it does have, isn't that appropriate for an Apple machine. So you may not have the choice. It's going to be the 7448 or the 970GX.

There could be an interesting choice between a 1.6 GHz 970MP or a 2 GHz 970GX though.
post #10 of 47
THT isn't the only one that is knowledgeable of processors that think the freescale processor isn't a good choice for a Mac. People have been saying that the processor is pretty much unacceptable for a while, and given lengthily reasoning as to why. I'm surprised none of you read any of that previously. Probably the least inportant, but most interesting thing about it is why the are limited to 8X PCI-E? That is no different from AGP. It makes me wonder why they bothered.
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post #11 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Probably the least inportant, but most interesting thing about it is why the are limited to 8X PCI-E? That is no different from AGP. It makes me wonder why they bothered.

The SLI solution from Nvisia also uses 8 PCI-E lanes per card. Did anybody see a speedlimit therefore?

BTW the internal MPX bus of the 8641D has 5300 MB/s peak bandwidth (in or out), the 970 in the 1.8 GHz iMac has 2100 MB/s (in) plus 2100 MB/s (out).
post #12 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by smalM
The SLI solution from Nvisia also uses 8 PCI-E lanes per card. Did anybody see a speedlimit therefore?

BTW the internal MPX bus of the 8641D has 5300 MB/s peak bandwidth (in or out), the 970 in the 1.8 GHz iMac has 2100 MB/s (in) plus 2100 MB/s (out).

No. The SLI solution from intel uses 8. The SLI solution from Nvidia uses 16, The one for AMD provides 16 (both ways) for each card as Nvidia had it in their documentation.
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post #13 of 47
The 8641D really isn't meant for computers.
post #14 of 47
SLi running on a amd runs each video card on a PCI E x8 or 1 video card on PCIE x16.THere no Sli on intel side other than 1 iwill mobo thats for the xeon.

PCiEx16 is not slower than agp but not much faster at the moment but it allows the option of sli,muilt gpu's on 1 card,alot more bandwidth up to 4gigs per sec bi directial,There highier power than can be drawed from the bus and when using muilt gpu's it runs the bus at full speed unlike agp when muilt gpu's are on 1 card the agp bus becomes a 66mhz 32bit PCI bus with 266mb per sec bandwidth.

Now with heat of the new 970mp it's goin to be alot hotter only if they don't use something like SOI with the 90nm die srink like Amd and if they go the root like intel with pressottt because the die srink causes alot more power leakage.
post #15 of 47
It is pretty much true that the 8641D would not be ideal for some Apple hardware but this doesn't mean anything in and of itself. If it gets out the door ideal or not it might be compelling from a power standpoint.

The other issue is that the e600 is a family of processors and Freescale has yet to announce a version to fill out its product line. Here I'm talking about their integrated system processors. Freescale could very well have something up its sleeve more suitable for PC use, that is e600 based. Evne at that I don't see the 8641, "D" or not being that bad of a processor for a number of Apple machines.

Of course the is dependant on what IBM has up its sleeves with respect to PPE's and high integration devices. Apple has a huge need right now for a procssor that ups performance to a significant extent and lowers power demand. I think business will go to whomever can deliver that processor.


Dave


Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
THT isn't the only one that is knowledgeable of processors that think the freescale processor isn't a good choice for a Mac. People have been saying that the processor is pretty much unacceptable for a while, and given lengthily reasoning as to why. I'm surprised none of you read any of that previously. Probably the least inportant, but most interesting thing about it is why the are limited to 8X PCI-E? That is no different from AGP. It makes me wonder why they bothered.
post #16 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by THT
The 8641D fact sheet doesn't state this. What it does state is that it has an internal, integrated or on-chip MPX bus that operates up to 667 MHz real clock. That's just a little bit more bandwidth than the 7 month old 1.8 GHz iMac G5's external FSB. Wonder why they even bothered having dual DDR-II memory controllers.

The latency will be way, way better though. The latency of a 167Mhz MPX bus is, iirc, better then that of a 1.25 Ghz Elastic bus for example.

And the reson for DDR-2 is two fold, 1) to give the IO unrestricted mem access 2) Future proofing.

Quote:
For external I/O, the 8641D will have a PCIe x8 channel, a choice between another PCIe x8 channel or a RapidIO channel, the aforementioned ethernet, and a slow 32 bit local bus.

Yep x8 PCI-e to the GFX and x4 PCI-e to the southbridge, and the local bus is used for the boot ROM for example. Any superflous Ethernet channels can most likely be shut down.
post #17 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by Thomaz
SLi running on a amd runs each video card on a PCI E x8 or 1 video card on PCIE x16.THere no Sli on intel side other than 1 iwill mobo thats for the xeon.

Again that is not true with the 2200, and the 2050 They do not split 1 16x PCI express lane, they use 2 individual lanes. 16x both ways.

Quote:
Quote1
In current motherboard chipsets, Intel's Tumwater chipset and the nForce 4 SLI break a 16 PCI-Express lane into two 8 PCI-Express lanes. The use of nForce Pro 2200 and 2050 combo in workstation configuration will allow for dual 16 PCI-Express lanes supporting Quadro SLI when it is officially launched by nVIDIA.

Quote:
_
Quote2

NVIDIA nForce Professional MCPs for Workstations:
The NVIDIA nForce Professional MCPs offer an advanced PCI Express design for high performance and provide a comprehensive feature set for both single-GPU and multi-GPU workstations. NVIDIA also works hand-in-hand with the industry's leading workstation ISVs, ensuring that NVIDIA solutions maximize productivity for MCAD, DCC, and film and video applications.

Key Workstation Features:
Multi-GPU capability with NVIDIA SLI technology: Supports two full x16 PCI Express slots for workstation graphics cards such as NVIDIA Quadro.

Certified PCI Express platform for high-performance, multiprocessor workstations

ISV certifications: NVIDIA's long-standing relationship with industry-leading ISVs ensures that your professional applications are tested and certified on NVIDIA solutions.

An innovative feature-rich single-chip architecture integrates native Gigabit Ethernet with NVIDIA ActiveArmor secure networking, SATA 3Gb/s with Native Command Queuing and RAID.

The NVIDIA Unified Driver Architecture (UDA) lowers total cost of ownership by providing a stable software image across multiple generations of hardware.
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post #18 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Again that is not true with the 2200, and the 2050 They do not split 1 16x PCI express lane, they use 2 individual lanes. 16x both ways.

They use 1 PCI-E 16x for each controller.
So you need a dual processor with dual controller system?

GPU---Controller---CPU---CPU---Controller---GPU
post #19 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by smalM
They use 1 PCI-E 16x for each controller.
So you need a dual processor with dual controller system?

GPU---Controller---CPU---CPU---Controller---GPU

If you're going to get SLI, you might as well break the bank.

Meanwhile over here in reality I think PCI-E 8x would be plenty for an iBook or PowerBook. And I hear that DDR2 is lower power than DDR.
post #20 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by smalM
They use 1 PCI-E 16x for each controller.
So you need a dual processor with dual controller system?

GPU---Controller---CPU---CPU---Controller---GPU

These are Dual Opteron Boards.
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post #21 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by wmf
If you're going to get SLI, you might as well break the bank.

Meanwhile over here in reality I think PCI-E 8x would be plenty for an iBook or PowerBook. And I hear that DDR2 is lower power than DDR.

If your only going with 8x why not stick with AGP?
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post #22 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
If your only going with 8x why not stick with AGP?

AGP is only fast in one way, PCI -E is fast both way.
post #23 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
AGP is only fast in one way, PCI -E is fast both way.

Yes but, isn't it 8x 1 way, and 4x the other? I don't think the difference is worth retooling the whole board for it.
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post #24 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Yes but, isn't it 8x 1 way, and 4x the other? I don't think the difference is worth retooling the whole board for it.

If my memory is correct it's only 1x for the other. That's say, currently it does not make a lot of difference.
post #25 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
If your only going with 8x why not stick with AGP?

Because ATI and nVidia are phasing out AGP.

My (somewhat obtuse) point is that the 8641D seems usable in PowerBooks or iBooks.
post #26 of 47
Agpx8 has a max of 2.1gig per sec.But it can only send data 1 way at a time.PCIEx8 has 4 gigs of ban and it send data both ways at once.(2gigs in/2 gig out)

onlooker Only on the opteron is that chipset on and yes it has 2 PCiEx16 slot's. THe Nforce 4 chipset THat The A64/FX socket 939 they are 2 full size x16 slot's but there connection inside of the slots when in sLI is x8.Intel 1 iwill xeon board has 2 PCIE slots for hacked sli but one slot has a x16 connection and the other is X4 connection in a x16 slot.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=2327
This is a link about what and how the NVIDIA nForce Professional works and its scalabity.IT will help u understand alittle about that tech.On there there a cell overview too if u want to check out.

The opterton has 3 hypertranport links Now with reversion E they are 1000MHz links.1 link for memory,1 for talking to the other cpu's and linking each cpu together and the 3rd is for linking it self with the southbridge.So giving that each chip can have its own dual channel ram.Like some boards u gotta have the second opteron to inable some of the mobo's onboardfeat's becuse it allows max troughtput when u have heavy demanding feats like scsi raid.
post #27 of 47
A lot of fuss is made about PCI-E's symmetry, but really that is a bit of a yawner. For something like CoreImage or those various projects doing computation on the GPU it is useful, but most of the time you use your GPU for graphics and 99.99% of data flow in graphics is from CPU & main memory to GPU. So while its nice that PCI-E can go both ways fast, it really isn't that big a deal.

Higher bandwidth isn't such a huge big deal at the moment either -- witness the lack of any real improvement from AGP 4x to 8x. Again, it helps a little and more is better... but its not a really big motivator to change.

A big thing that PCI-E supports that AGP doesn't is multiple slots. In this age of dual headed cards though, this is really only useful for those of us with more than two monitors (or more than one of those big 30"ers!). A very small number indeed.

PCI-E does replace PCI so everything currently on your PCI bus stands to benefit from big bandwidth increases. I think it is also a better standard from an electrical point of view, but that's not my field so I can't really comment on it. The single biggest factor in favor of PCI-E? That it is going to be the new standard. That is why Apple will switch to it, but that doesn't really become relevant until it is a well established standard... some time this year.

So don't get so worked up over it, it really isn't such an earth shaking feature. If Apple doesn't have it by 2006 then its probably time to complain, but at the moment I'd worry more about the lack of 3 GHz, dual core chips, or a higher bandwidth, lower latency memory subsystem.
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post #28 of 47
I have a question does apple chipsets support fastwrite?I is a feature In agpx4/8 cards and in pc chipsets so when the video card asks for data from the cpu is don't go though the memory just the fsb and same when data from the cpu to the gpu.
PCiE is a major inprovment over PCi\\X becuase.With a system with say just pci slots the total ban over the reg PCi bus from every slot and onboard feats like PAta\\Sata\\ubs\\firewire have to share a total of 133mb.PciX slots has to have a chip to control each slot.Example u have a bunch of diffrent grade PCi X slots u have to have diffrent chips on the motherboard to control each slot speed spec and then there linked with the SB chip.
With PCiE there XX many Links in The SB and then there split off from there to X many PciE slot and onboard feats.So think of this what would you want if u have a raid setup?have your hardrives fighting for its place in the 133mb space with other devices or being on it own lane getting 500mb i/o.PciE x1 link.Thats a god send for highend scsi severs than don't have to buy a specail pciX card.When they can buy a card that could be supported pretty much any motherboard that has a pciEx1/4/8 slot.


Btw my raid example is about a onboard raid controller.
post #29 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by Thomaz
I have a question does apple chipsets support fastwrite?

I'm thinking that it does, at least the late generation G4 chipsets. Note sure about the G5 chipsets.

Quote:
PCiE is a major inprovment over PCi\\X becuase.With a system with say just pci slots the total ban over the reg PCi bus from every slot and onboard feats like PAta\\Sata\\ubs\\firewire have to share a total of 133mb.PciX slots has to have a chip to control each slot.

Yeah, except that Apple's systems aren't like this. For the G5 systems, core logic ASICs are bridged with Hypertransport links and PATA, SATA, 1394, and ethernet are integrated into the ASICs. The only things on the PCI bus are USB, Airport and the slots. For the G4 systems, all the major bandwidth features are integrated onto one system ASIC, and well, they don't have any PCI slots, or in the case of the 15+ inch Powerbooks, 1 Cardbus slot.

Apple needs to have PCIe for graphics compatibility eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later, with SLI or multi-rendering capability.
post #30 of 47
Can u find me a good pic of a g5 motherboard and a good diagram showing the basic working of it? I am looking for one and can't find it at the moment.

What i understand from apple site is everything is link with ht links.So i am wrong on apple part of what i have said about the g5.

THT G4's didn't have pci slots?I alway thought they did other than the mac mini.
post #31 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by Thomaz


THT G4's didn't have pci slots?I alway thought they did other than the mac mini.

iBooks, PowerBooks, and mini's don't have PCI slots. The graphics cards are soldered in I think.
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post #32 of 47
ok he was talking not about G4 powermac.that's kool i though i really was losing it looking at a g4 mac and there not suppose to be pci slots .
post #33 of 47
Sure the elder G4 PowerMacs had 1 AGP , and 3 PCI slots, but the much older yikes had 4(?) PCI slots. But I think he was referring to Apples current computers.
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post #34 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by Eric_Z
And the reson for DDR-2 is two fold, 1) to give the IO unrestricted mem access 2) Future proofing.

Power consumption.
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post #35 of 47
It's just not less power when u talk about ddr2.Its about reaching much higher speeds than possable with ddr1 with speeds over 800mhz+.But what hurting it is its high cas timing cas 4 and 5,price and Dram makers like samsung is making DDR1 ram that can go DDR600+ and still have lower timings than ddr2.
post #36 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by Thomaz
It's just not less power when u talk about ddr2.Its about reaching much higher speeds than possable with ddr1 with speeds over 800mhz+.But what hurting it is its high cas timing cas 4 and 5,price and Dram makers like samsung is making DDR1 ram that can go DDR600+ and still have lower timings than ddr2.

Some random notes:

RAM manufacturers are already phasing out DDR production. Just as with SDRAM, DDR is going to become an expensive old technology. DDR2 is ramping in fast ( and DDR4 is following soon ).

PCI-E is the same, it doesnt matter if the technology makes a difference to the end user, for the people building the boards it is worthwhile, and moving into the market fast. not supporting it in new products is going to be suicide.

AGP 8x does support two slots, but no one ever made a chipset or a board that used it - because there were very few users who needed high speed 3d on 4 displays, and no one making SLI cards. I think it is being used by ATI, their IGP built in video will continue to work if you plug in an ATI AGP card, giving you 3 video outs.

If you have a look at card manufacturers, there are already plenty of nvidia 6200s coming onto the market ( PCI-E ) with only 16mb of vram. They host all of the textures in main system RAM ( upto 256mb ). Im sure that they dont perform very well, but what do users know, its a cheap card that can do everything.

PCI-E, like hypertransport, provides a fast way to connect to devices that is standardised. However, it is also flexible. Only want to give a device a 1x connection ( because of board space, or availble channels, or pins on the chip etc etc ) and you can. You can take a 16x video card, and mask off all of the pins except the 1x, and it will still run. That is just great technology for board designers.
post #37 of 47
Ati igp turns into a pci card when a Agp card pluged in.AGp cannot support more than 1 agp slot and it can't support muilt gpu's.The rage fury maxx had 2 gpu's and the card ran on agp but the bus didn' run as a agp bus it ran as a 66mhz x 32 bit slot.Same as 3dfx's vodoo 5500 and 6000 too.

The next gen memory after ddr2 is ddr3 its goin to be based of Gddr3 thats on video cards.


Gf6200 has upto 64mb of memory on boards
GeForce 6200 w/ TurboCache supporting 128MB, including 16MB of local TurboCache: $79
GeForce 6200 w/ TurboCache supporting 128MB, including 32MB of local TurboCache: $99
GeForce 6200 w/ TurboCache supporting 256MB, including 64MB of local TurboCache: $129
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post #38 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by Thomaz
Can u find me a good pic of a g5 motherboard and a good diagram showing the basic working of it? I am looking for one and can't find it at the moment.

Here's a Power Mac G5 (2 and 2.5 GHz) diagram:



Apple's Developer website is a good website for hardware diagrams.

Images of Apple motherboards can be found on Google. The Japanese site Kodawarisan has a lot of disassembly images. Some images can be found at xlr8yourmac.com/

Quote:
THT G4's didn't have pci slots?I alway thought they did other than the mac mini.

Of course Power Mac G4s have PCI slots, but they are also about a year out of production and the odds of a G4 w/slot expansion is pretty close to zero. Something pretty incredible has to happen for Apple to ship a G4 based system with slots in the future.

I think everyone is in agreement that Apple needs to adopt PCIe (for graphics as minimum and I/O expansion later on) and a higher performance memory subsystem eventually. Sooner is definitely better than later. They also need to ship a lower cost Power Mac G5 in the ~$1000 range, and even ship dual-core processors in them. Dual-core 1.6 and 1.8 GHz would be fine, but I doubt it.
post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by THT
They also need to ship a lower cost Power Mac G5 in the ~$1000 range, and even ship dual-core processors in them. Dual-core 1.6 and 1.8 GHz would be fine, but I doubt it.

But thats iMac territory. I really can't see them doing that. I'm highly doubting there will ever be a PowerMac lite, even if Apple decides to create an appropriate 3D workstation, and reduces the general PowerMac specs to what may be needed for 2D work I just can't see them doing that. I think they would alter the iMacs range first.
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post #40 of 47
Thanx for the pic and the links THT.I well what i understand apple could benafit from PciE quite abit on there mobo design in area's.

1)There the pci bus link to the ubs controller,blue tooth,airport,rom if they went with PciE x1 link it would help in using alot less traces on the board,less complexty on design of trying to get all them traces to work right and well better overall speed on them port's.
2)They could make the audio a pciE chip to support more than max of 24bit/48khz output to 24bit/96 or 192khz for true dvd support audio.Core audio what i can understand from apple developer support is 32bit\\48khz output.Give it a dobly digtail encoding/decodeing acceration.Only sound chip that ever had output an AC3 or Dolby Digital 5.1 digital onboard was Nvidia soundstorm in the nf1/2.plus to they could inprove pretty much anything else the with too.
3)As it looks if they went the pciE root they could use just pciE lanes comming off the Sb and less linking through diffrent bus's coming off the SB and possably have room to put that pciX controller chip inside the SB freeing up more traces and the need for that chip and give the whole system a little less lagacy. plus alittle less complex and alitle more room again for some other onboard feat in the place of the PciX bridge chip would be if they want.


again sorry for any spelling mistakes and grammer its just not a truly easy subject to explane.Plus i love trying to understand everything about each peice of technogy.










What the speed of the i2s bus?
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