Originally posted by Fellowship
In reply to:
1.) I still believe this war was about anything other than WMD. I respect your reply.
2.) This is not about Mr. Moore. I have done hours of my own research reviewing sites all across the internet. Judicial Watch.Org for just one example. I would encourage people not to be afraid to question our government when they hold "behind closed door" meetings with energy execs. Judicial Watch had to take the gov't. to court using the FOIA "Freedom of Information Act." I believe you stepped around this question and may or may not have reasons to address the information about Cheney and James Baker III but that is for reasons beyond my knolwedge. I respect your reply but walk away without a feeling that you fulfilled any real due dilligence.
3.) If I may put your reply into other words you are saying essentially that "we can not just bully anyone in the world" "Saudi Arabia has us in a fix and we just let certain things slide because of this"
That is what it sounds like you are saying. I believe this is where the Integrity of the US, our leadership and our policy goes flying out the window. Integrity and justice must be universal. Your reply here while I respect it seems to adhear to the acceptance of this status quo which is geared in a context outside of integrity. I would ask you to do more research concerning business deals between high ranking officials in the US and within Saudi Arabia. In review of your findings you may have to explain some conflicts of interest between the multiple parties.
4.) I am fully aware of the total of Iraq. I was trying to see if you noticed the level of "sweet crude" in Iraq and if you thought this had something to do with us being over there. Some suggest that oil at full capacity is becoming strained. This is due to many factors, China of which is no small player with their increasing thirst for oil. Many in the know realize that Saudi Arabia is reaching a "full production rate" and the oil is harder to obtain as time goes on where as in Iraq "sweet crude" is on hand and being sweet crude it is much less expensive to obtain. I am not sure if you just skipped over this real question or if you did not understand the question. I do not feel that you answered it. I respect your reply regardless but I walk away without anything with what you left.
5.) You keep making mention of "what is possible" May I suggest to you that Integrity is a concept that is supreme to just "what is possible". If America can not act in a way which adhears to a policy of integrity and honesty may I suggest that America actually creates more problems than it solves. Action "just because you can" is no justification for any cause when performed void of justice and integrity. I feel you are slipping from the idea of integrity in your reply. I respect your reply but it is very sad to see the mindset of "what is possible" become the mantra and basis or justification for actions. All actions should be rooted in Integrity. Actions based outside of integrity are unwise actions.
Thanks for your reply
I would like to see SDW2001 reply
1) yes, but I think the administration covered themselves in a legalistic sort of way.
2) as to the Baker issue, no this would not have overidden GWB's seemingly isolationist POV. I don't think popular support would have been available either. Without 9/11, this would put this proposal back with many others that are shopped around by the various players in Washington. There many agendas and subcurrents that exist in that culture -- I see this as singling out one particular fanatasy of one particular interest group, whose wildest dreams came true.
3) this is alot of truth there, America is not the country it once was, so yes it is at the mercy of some countries and is becoming even more so year-to-year. As to integrity, the international situation is so out-of-control that this is a game of damage control. Also, inegrity at chess would not involve giving away your strategy either. As to justice, we do not have justice at home, it would not be reasonable to see this consistantly applied abroad. As to closed door meetings, that is how government operates -- and I'm not saying it's right at all -- but to single out one set, and essentially point to it and say 'hey! they had a secret meeting' is not realistic. Also, you are told what is usefull for you to know, the reports of collusion in various forms that are "tracked' by certain groups are a victim of the very political nature and environment that spawned them.
I have a mouse's eye view on a very small slice of politics and it literally makes me fear for our governments ability to exist. Fellowship you DO NOT live in a democracy, you live in a oligarcy/aristocracy of some sort, and it's not just the bad guys that are doing it.
4) the situation of Iraq's resources is neither here nor there, yes it WILL be used to every advantage, but none of this will 'drain the swamps' of terrorist nations, which is, I believe the essence of the Iraq situation.
5) You're using the Justice and Integrity, but both of those terms derive their meaning from God. Justice comes from God, Integrity is not a concept, integrity was essentially a person, the Person of Jesus Christ. These are not priniciples that are not being observed by essentially anyone in any of this, whether from profiteering Oil companies to the flawed responses from everyone from the UN's hideous sanctions murdering children, to using legalese to perform an takeover of Iraq. Integrity would have been GB I going all the way to Baghdad, or the UN acting with conviction, but agian, Justice is god-given so even those responses would be problematic.
Yes, it is very bad. But--do you have a solution, could you take this situation and make it better? Or can you look at the ME and see another way to drain the swamps without removing tyranical governements? Could you remove tyrannical governments using a 'love your neigbor' approach? With justice? With Integrity? Who? What? When? Where? and How? I honestly don't know.
In the end, I 'see' the Iraq issue -- the way it is played on these forums -- as a tool to make all of our corruption, greed, malice, and hate, and pin it on one man, one nation, and one industry. Those sorts of solutions are simplistic, they place blame on an 'easy' target, but in the end it only turns into a lynching. You pull on one string and the whole thing is connected, and in the end, not even the leaders are in control.
Anyway, I'm blowing my schedule. I do see you point, though.
Edit: Maybe it would better to put it this way --GWB is being protrayed here as a guy whose first/only thought after 9/11 is "good, now we can go get Iraq's oil". I can't believe that. This guy is either a half-assed Christian (as he seems to be -- I don't exclude myself in that description), or he is the Devil himself.