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"If you're pro-democracy then you're pro-US foreign policy" - Page 4  

post #121 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Allright, you are trying to stop war by using less gas?

Let me ask you a question.

Let's say that you smoked cigarettes and were thinking of cutting back or quitting. Now let's say others are considering the same idea of cutting back and or quitting. If the Tobacco companies have softer sales this could lead to a lowering of their retail price of cigarettes as to try to increase sales.

What is the answer ? if some people quit smoking will this lead to even more starting to smoke?

Who has to be responsible?

In other words:

Should we be resposible for ourself even if it makes it harder for others to resist starting to smoke

or

Should we care that if we quit smoking that the other guy might start as prices could fall if we quit. So then lets not quit so that the other guy will not start.

What is the right path here?

Is there a right path?



Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #122 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
When did I say anything at all like that?

What youre doing now is trying to cover your trolling tracks by ratcheting up the rhetoric even more, employing the clever use of smilies and straw men arguments you then rail against. Do you think youre adding to the conversation? Do you think you could do a better job adding to the discussion if you stopped trolling so much?

Bullshit. I call hypocrisy when I see it. You call troll any time someone points out the fact that your arguments are full of crap. Reading further down the page I can see you didn't even look at Jevon's paradox which I posted relating to this matter because you are still reciting the same tired crap over and over.

BTW, final note toward your hypocritical self, you brought up the baby eating rhetoric first and attempted to use this rhetoric to discredit my very lucid point about disproportionate use of resources being criminal.

So Mr. Moderator, if you don't like the posting style, don't spend so much time modeling it.

Quote:
That is a horribly misleading analogy (which goes without saying).
This isnt just you and me jumping, its over 250 million people jumping. And doing a better job of managing energy consumption and looking into alternative sources

Wrong this wasn't about policy. There has been no policy discussion and if there were discussion about CAFE standards or something of that nature we would likely be in agreement. This is about smug self-rightousness created when one attempts token efforts and then brands themselves good and another person a warmonger.

The reality is that everyone in the U.S. uses massively more energy than most third world countries. Saying that you want war less because you use 4% less of what on average is a couple thousand percent is exactly the type of moon jumping absurdity I mentioned.

Quote:
Do you believe that 30 million people buying 40+mpg gallon cars (who normally might buy ~20mpg cars) at the end of their normal buying cycle and increasing that buying cycle by a few years would make a noticeable impact?

It depends. How much gas energy would it take to produce the new cars which have much higher technology requirements than the older cars? How much does it cost to scrap and recycle the older cars? How many more people will buy additional cars that are now so inexpensive to operate? (Because when you have half the demand, the price will suddenly drop)

No so clear cut...

Quote:
What if 3 million others decided to eschew cars altogether, move closer to their big city job and use public transportation?

How much is the energy cost to construct the high rises they will live within? How much to pay for additional infrastructure like sewage treatment, electricity, and water? How much energy cost to drill the additional public transportation routes needed for 3 million more people? How much on going cost in elevators, escalators, air conditioning, etc.

Quote:
What if 4 million more couples decided to only have 1 car instead of 2?

Then they drive it around twice as much? How can you be assured that this leads to half as much driving?

Quote:
What if 1 million university/college students decided to live closer to campus instead of commuting from outlying neighborhoods?

Then who constructs the higher density housing and parking structures near the campus, pays for the demolition of all the older single family housing that it will now occupy, understands that all the families that formerly lived near the campus will now relocate further out and possibly commute longer or different distances and what are all the energy costs versus what was saved?

Quote:
You see, if I were a troll like you I would ask a ridiculous question like; Oh so youre saying that nothing anyone does matters so everyone who doesnt buy a Hummer is a big moron!?
But Im not a troll, so I dont. Do you see the difference in how you and I are wording our arguments yet?

I think youre using rhetoric to cover the fact that you dont really have anything to say.

I think the argument you posted above shows the naivity of an underemployed kid who went to school thinking words change the world instead of actions. Look I can model moderator behavior just perfectly.


The reality is that some people do buy Hummers. However people with big cars often get drafted to do big things. Try owning a truck for a while and see how many people who don't ask you to haul crap around for them. Try owning a vehicle that holds more than six passengers and note that you always get drafted to drive the large group around.

Life isn't so simplistic as you make it and claiming that it is simple doesn't mean you really provided a solution.

Quote:
Yeah, thanks for catching up with the rest of the class.

Why am I constantly mistaken for someone who gives a crap about being seen as good and noble on the goddam Internet?
Yes, when I participate in the system I give that system positive reinforcement. I do. Me. I know that. Thats what Ive been saying from the very beginning.

Well enjoy your bloodbath. Innocent people died so you can watch steroid filled assholes beat each other to a pulp on a field in a stadium built with money that could have educated kids, healed the sick and helped the elderly.

See anyone can practice this I'm more self-rightous bullcrap. Better still let me use it to decide how your life should be for you.

Wouldn't that be grand!

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #123 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
I must in all honesty admit that this concept is very true.

In the mid to late 90's the Asia Tiger Economies fell like a rock as did we see other problems in central america hence leading to surplus of fuel across the globe. This gave the American market CHEAP GAS. Who remembers the $0.89 gas we used to have??

I do

This idea of "hey man look we have CHEAP gas" led to the American automakers to produce and promote large SUV's afterall the cost of fuel was no issue...... Right? ? ?

Fellows

Actually that is a little simplistic. SUV's have come about in part because of the change in vehicles and laws surrounding them.

Most couples I knew growing up used to own a large truck and a car. The car was used primarily for the hauling of family and the truck for hauling of large items and work related matters.

Now I see most SUV's being used for hauling family, often with car seats, and also for hauling large items. The truck, if the family owns one, has at times gotten smaller and is used to commute to jobs that are longer distances. Or some own the SUV which gets driven around town by whowever works in town and a sedan that gets driven long distances.

Do you have any proof that family vehicles get less mpg overall now than they did when gas was $.89? Especially when accounting for increased work of women, etc.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #124 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Bullshit. I call hypocrisy when I see it. You call troll any time someone points out the fact that your arguments are full of crap. Reading further down the page I can see you didn't even look at Jevon's paradox which I posted relating to this matter because you are still reciting the same tired crap over and over.

BTW, final note toward your hypocritical self, you brought up the baby eating rhetoric first and attempted to use this rhetoric to discredit my very lucid point about disproportionate use of resources being criminal.

So Mr. Moderator, if you don't like the posting style, don't spend so much time modeling it.



Wrong this wasn't about policy. There has been no policy discussion and if there were discussion about CAFE standards or something of that nature we would likely be in agreement. This is about smug self-rightousness created when one attempts token efforts and then brands themselves good and another person a warmonger.

The reality is that everyone in the U.S. uses massively more energy than most third world countries. Saying that you want war less because you use 4% less of what on average is a couple thousand percent is exactly the type of moon jumping absurdity I mentioned.



It depends. How much gas energy would it take to produce the new cars which have much higher technology requirements than the older cars? How much does it cost to scrap and recycle the older cars? How many more people will buy additional cars that are now so inexpensive to operate? (Because when you have half the demand, the price will suddenly drop)

No so clear cut...



How much is the energy cost to construct the high rises they will live within? How much to pay for additional infrastructure like sewage treatment, electricity, and water? How much energy cost to drill the additional public transportation routes needed for 3 million more people? How much on going cost in elevators, escalators, air conditioning, etc.



Then they drive it around twice as much? How can you be assured that this leads to half as much driving?



Then who constructs the higher density housing and parking structures near the campus, pays for the demolition of all the older single family housing that it will now occupy, understands that all the families that formerly lived near the campus will now relocate further out and possibly commute longer or different distances and what are all the energy costs versus what was saved?



I think the argument you posted above shows the naivity of an underemployed kid who went to school thinking words change the world instead of actions. Look I can model moderator behavior just perfectly.


The reality is that some people do buy Hummers. However people with big cars often get drafted to do big things. Try owning a truck for a while and see how many people who don't ask you to haul crap around for them. Try owning a vehicle that holds more than six passengers and note that you always get drafted to drive the large group around.

Life isn't so simplistic as you make it and claiming that it is simple doesn't mean you really provided a solution.



Well enjoy your bloodbath. Innocent people died so you can watch steroid filled assholes beat each other to a pulp on a field in a stadium built with money that could have educated kids, healed the sick and helped the elderly.

See anyone can practice this I'm more self-rightous bullcrap. Better still let me use it to decide how your life should be for you.

Wouldn't that be grand!

Nick


God! So you're connecting this all to a need for us to war with someone? Oh I see it's not the government or Bush's fault. It's us and our greedy ways.


God what a bunch of crap. In my day they would have called such a wimpy excuse a " Cop out ".

You forgot to mention ( again ) those greedy oil companies ( who have friends in high places ) who lobby against change.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #125 of 128
Definding personal attacks with more personal attacks is not the most effective method of clearing ones name.

Though I am glad to see that in your torrent of ad hominem youve ratcheted down your use of straw men. Nice to see.

Quote:
Wrong this wasn't about policy. . This is about smug self-rightousness created when one attempts token efforts and then brands themselves good and another person a warmonger.

That is your mischaracterization about what someone has said, actually, something that has been pointed out repeatedly.

Let me just post fellowships sentence again and I will walk you through it:
People who look for and use renewable energy do not (as much) create this demand for wars to solve energy supply concerns.

Now lets start with the idea that fellowship is talking only about himself:
1 - People is plural. Unless fellowship has miraculously discovered the ability to duplicate himself, its clear from the outset that he is not talking about himself alone.
2 If you look above his sentence you see a picture of a "Kerry/Edwards" sign in his yard. Another attempt to show hes trying to help, but also an indication that it is about more than him. The sign does not say "Fellowship: What A Guy!", it indicated allegiance to another very very large group of people who share his concerns. What do presidents make? POLICY! So yes, it was very much about policy.

He is undoubtedly tooting his own horn, but in doing so he is not restricting the horn tooting to himself.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #126 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Do you have any proof that family vehicles get less mpg overall now than they did when gas was $.89? Especially when accounting for increased work of women, etc.

I was waiting anxiously to see how the duplicity of women could work its way into this one.

Now I can rest easy.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #127 of 128
Thread Starter 
Grove the funny thing is that I was responding to NaplesX post below



Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
A little less talk and a lot more action.

A lot less complaining and a little more doing.

Put you money where your mouth is.

Should I clarify more?

He wanted people to toot so I was simply showing NaplesX that I did my part to toot.

I think Trumpt thought I farted or worse

All I did was toot to show NaplesX that some of have already tooted.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #128 of 128
Exactly. I think this one's done.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
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