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"If you're pro-democracy then you're pro-US foreign policy" - Page 2  

post #41 of 128
Groverat -
Quote:
Democracies are far more likely to respect human rights

I think that should read...

Democracies are far more likely to want to create the impression that they respect human rights

Which is why our governments work through proxies. The list of human rights abuses and abusers who have been enabled by 'civilised' Western nations should shame us all.
post #42 of 128
Likely is the key word.

There are no rules in social sciences. Democracies are FAR more likely to respect human rights. But its not something you can prove by comparing a specific democracy to a specific non-democracy.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
post #43 of 128
Once again Anders hits the nail on the head.
post #44 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Not really, no. Especially not now that Afghanistan could be under our control and the drugs are skyrocketing.

So what your saying is the US didn't completely take over Afghanistan as it should if it was just being an Imperialist bully?

I singled out that comment because it seems to go against prevailing left wing propaganda.

Things that make you go hmmmm...
post #45 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
So what your saying is the US didn't completely take over Afghanistan as it should if it was just being an Imperialist bully?

I singled out that comment because it seems to go against prevailing left wing propaganda.

Things that make you go hmmmm...

The focus changed from Afghanistan to Iraq. One is expensive enough. For some reason Iraq became more of a focus than the country where Bin Laudin was last seen. Hmmmmmmm?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #46 of 128
NaplesX:

Quote:
So what your saying is the US didn't completely take over Afghanistan as it should if it was just being an Imperialist bully?

No. I'm saying (1) that I don't really care about their drug production, it's not something worth our while to try and curtail.
But I am saying that if our concern was drug production (the excuse used to give tens of millions of dollars to the ruling Taliban) then we could be doing something about it now, but we aren't.

I really don't like this tactic of yours of behaving more and more like a petulant child as you run out of arguments. "Things that make you go hmmm". I wonder if you can participate in any discussion at all without littering your posts with trolling sarcasm. It is almost as if you don't care about discussing, only spewing venom.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #47 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
SDW, how can you be so worried about appearing weak, and not be worried at all about appearing dishonest, arrogant and selfish?

To me, integrity is a far better display of strength than muscle.

You can't really believe that an apology for all of those things would do any good. All it would do is undermine any current efforts, because there would be an unpoken expectation that we might apologize for those too. Imagine the President getting on international television and apologizing for something that happened in 1953. I guess he should also apologize for Carter letting the Shah get sacked in '79? He should apologize for the failed hostage rescue attempt as well. He should apologize for Vietnam too. Oh, and Libya. And the aspirin factory we hit when trying to get bin laden. All of it...apologize.

It would make us appear weak, and it would be a disaster. One of the reasons certain Arab populations hate the United States is because their governments spew anti-US rhetoric and block real western influence. Iran is the perfect example. The problem with anti-Americanism isn't so much our past actions, but it is the tyrannical governments themselves.

My feeling is that somehwhere "in a place he doesn't talk about at parties" (to borrow the prhase), goverat really does believe that we are the cause of the oppression in the middle east. I simply do not accept that.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
post #48 of 128
SDW:

Incredulity is not an argument, it's a big red sign screaming "I have no argument!"

Quote:
You can't really believe that an apology for all of those things would do any good. All it would do is undermine any current efforts, because there would be an unpoken expectation that we might apologize for those too.

So?

Quote:
Imagine the President getting on international television and apologizing for something that happened in 1953. I guess he should also apologize for Carter letting the Shah get sacked in '79? He should apologize for the failed hostage rescue attempt as well. He should apologize for Vietnam too. Oh, and Libya. And the aspirin factory we hit when trying to get bin laden. All of it...apologize.

Why not?
You say "we would appear weak"... but what does that mean?

Quote:
The problem with anti-Americanism isn't so much our past actions, but it is the tyrannical governments themselves.

As someone who is not critical of US foreign policy, do you feel you are qualified to speak people who are "anti-US"?

Quote:
My feeling is that somehwhere "in a place he doesn't talk about at parties" (to borrow the prhase), goverat really does believe that we are the cause of the oppression in the middle east. I simply do not accept that.

We are responsible for a lot of it, yeah.

We removed a democratically elected leader in Iran and installed the Shah and his horrible regime. We did that.
We heavily supported Saddam and the Ba'athists right up through the worst of their atrocities and only disliked them when he invaded another country.
To this day we support Saudi Arabia's brutal ruling regime.

Yes, we are a strong factor in a lot of middle east problems. Not all, but a lot.

Further, I am one of the few people on this board that will come out and be 100% honest about what I think and why I think it.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #49 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
SDW:

Incredulity is not an argument, it's a big red sign screaming "I have no argument!"



So?



Why not?
You say "we would appear weak"... but what does that mean?



As someone who is not critical of US foreign policy, do you feel you are qualified to speak people who are "anti-US"?



We are responsible for a lot of it, yeah.

We removed a democratically elected leader in Iran and installed the Shah and his horrible regime. We did that.
We heavily supported Saddam and the Ba'athists right up through the worst of their atrocities and only disliked them when he invaded another country.
To this day we support Saudi Arabia's brutal ruling regime.

Yes, we are a strong factor in a lot of middle east problems. Not all, but a lot.

Further, I am one of the few people on this board that will come out and be 100% honest about what I think and why I think it.

Well, at least you are honest. I'll give you that. I simply think apologizing fuels that flames. I don't think the arab street would look at an apology as being sincere, even if it was. I think it would simply draw attention to any wrongs that were committed and blow them dramtically out of proportion.

Aside: Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see us become independent of the Saudis. We both know that without the oil, we'd never give them a second look. This is one reason I'm a big proponent of short and mid-term oil independence solutions by drilling in the US.

I'm also not sure that you're accurate in saying I'm not critical of foreign policy. That being said, I am in agreement with most of what is happening right now...the overall vision with transforming the middle east in particular. As for "being qualified", I'm not sure where you're going with that because it appears you left out either the word "to" or "for". I can't answer until you clarify.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
post #50 of 128
Quote:
As for "being qualified", I'm not sure where you're going with that because it appears you left out either the word "to" or "for". I can't answer until you clarify.

I left out "for":
As someone who is not critical of US foreign policy, do you feel you are qualified to speak for people who are "anti-US"?

Your entire argument against apologizing lacks on whether or not you can credibly speak for those who are, in your estimation, "anti-US".

To carry on with your aside, would it be reasonable for me to expect you to be critical of intra-US drilling expansion if it does not result in lessened ties with Saudi Arabia?
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #51 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
I left out "for":
As someone who is not critical of US foreign policy, do you feel you are qualified to speak for people who are "anti-US"?

Your entire argument against apologizing lacks on whether or not you can credibly speak for those who are, in your estimation, "anti-US".

Perhaps SDW is right. Perhaps you are. Or perhaps both of your are partially right.

I have a great idea! Why don't you and some of the lefties here draft a letter that when the world's oppressed people would read it, they would be immediately moved to forgive the US for it's trespasses. I mean, you guys have consistently claimed the superior mental ability, moral authority, capacity for compassion, credibility and enlightenment, so why not let the people of the world know how the people of the US feel (or at lest a percentage of them)?

Why are you waiting for the president to do it for you? Don't you think he has his hands full right now?

Take that bull by the horns. make a meaningful statement. If you truly believe in your cause, take a stand.
post #52 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Perhaps SDW is right. Perhaps you are. Or perhaps both of your are partially right.

I have a great idea! Why don't you and some of the lefties here draft a letter that when the world's oppressed people would read it, they would be immediately moved to forgive the US for it's trespasses. I mean, you guys have consistently claimed the superior mental ability, moral authority, capacity for compassion, credibility and enlightenment, so why not let the people of the world know how the people of the US feel (or at lest a percentage of them)?

Why are you waiting for the president to do it for you? Don't you think he has his hands full right now?

Take that bull by the horns. make a meaningful statement. If you truly believe in your cause, take a stand.

What is that supposed to mean???
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #53 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
What is that supposed to mean???

A little less talk and a lot more action.

A lot less complaining and a little more doing.

Put you money where your mouth is.

Should I clarify more?
post #54 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
A little less talk and a lot more action.

A lot less complaining and a little more doing.

Put you money where your mouth is.

Should I clarify more?

You need not clarify.

You should take notes.





You see, everyone who did not vote for Bush "wrote that letter"

People who look for and use renewable energy do not (as much) create this demand for wars to solve energy supply concerns.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #55 of 128
"Well why don't you do something about it!?" is one of the hallmark tactics of those who no longer have an argument but still want to keep up a confrontation.

Naples, your last post is a worthless troll.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #56 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
You need not clarify.

You should take notes.

People who look for and use renewable energy do not (as much) create this demand for wars to solve energy supply concerns.

Fellows

I don't mean to sound like an ass Fellows but although you might feel like you can toss rocks at glass houses from your biodiesel car. Some of us in your gas vehicles will point out that the coal and natural gas that powers the electricity for your (I'm guessing) say... 2600 sq ft or so house doesn't really put you above the fray. I mean do two adults and a couple cats really need all that space and the energy it requires?

Also I assure you that if we all switched to biodiesel tomorrow the environmentalists would still complain that we are raping the planet via our consuption of resources for farming. Heck they already do when it is just for food so why not complain when it is for fuel.

I'm not taking a side on this foreign policy argument(mostly because both sides are beyond being able to see any good or bad from the situation at this point) just telling a good guy not to through rocks when he should absolutely know better.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #57 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I don't mean to sound like an ass Fellows but although you might feel like you can toss rocks at glass houses from your biodiesel car. Some of us in your gas vehicles will point out that the coal and natural gas that powers the electricity for your (I'm guessing) say... 2600 sq ft or so house doesn't really put you above the fray. I mean do two adults and a couple cats really need all that space and the energy it requires?

Also I assure you that if we all switched to biodiesel tomorrow the environmentalists would still complain that we are raping the planet via our consuption of resources for farming. Heck they already do when it is just for food so why not complain when it is for fuel.

I'm not taking a side on this foreign policy argument(mostly because both sides are beyond being able to see any good or bad from the situation at this point) just telling a good guy not to through rocks when he should absolutely know better.

Also I use Florescent bulbs all throughout my home. I do my part.

Nick

Actually you are right to notice the size of my home. I could live in a smaller one and I actually plan to. Just so you feel a little better I do not run the heat or the AC much at all during the day. My electric bills are very small. In fact mush less than some 800 - 1,000 sq foot apartments. I have heavy R-factor insulation as well as radiant barrier technology. I light color brick which does not get as hot as darker brick.

Some apartments do not have the energy efficient AC/ Heat Pump's like my house has. I actually have a smaller bill. I compared my bill to the one Heather had in her apartment. Guess which was and is smaller?

Thanks

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #58 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
"Well why don't you do something about it!?" is one of the hallmark tactics of those who no longer have an argument but still want to keep up a confrontation.

Naples, your last post is a worthless troll.

It's called a calling out.

I am so sick of hearing how bad GWB is. It has reach the point of absurdity. He's human and makes mistakes, fine. Let's move on past that a bit shall we?

I am just saying shut up and do something constructive.

If you think the world needs an apology then start a movement, i.e. - build a "www.america-is-sorry.com" website, write some letters to foreign governments expressing our sorrow. Something.

You guys lurk here in cyberspace bitching, moaning, gnashing of your collective teeth and launching "gotcha GWB" cyber-memos to the peanut gallery here and then pat each other on the back for "raging against the machine."

The deck is stacked in your favor here (right/left) it would seem to this poster. So what are you raging against?

Do something real, that's all I'm saying. Call me a troll if it makes you feel better.
post #59 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Actually you are right to notice the size of my home. I could live in a smaller one and I actually plan to. Just so you feel a little better I do not run the heat or the AC much at all during the day. My electric bills are very small. In fact mush less than some 800 - 1,000 sq foot apartments. I have heavy R-factor insulation as well as radiant barrier technology. I light color brick which does not get as hot as darker brick.

Some apartments do not have the energy efficient AC/ Heat Pump's like my house has. I actually have a smaller bill. I compared my bill to the one Heather had in her apartment. Guess which was and is smaller?

Thanks

Fellows

I don't need to feel better. I'm not the one claiming an energy superiority over other people and using it to condemn a point of view. I assure you I could go well beyond your home if I wanted to condemn you for any reason. I can judge your ideas on their merits without personally attacking and condemning you though.

The point is that the ideas should stand by themselves and so should your actions. Token efforts that allow you to claim a right to judge others are the worst of all because they prevent real action.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #60 of 128
Naples:

So basically what you want is for people who say things you don't like to simultaneously "shut up" at the same time they are "doing something about it"?

You ask for an answer, I give one, and now you're whining that I gave one.

I vote. I voice my opinion in many arenas. I occassionally write letters to my congressmen and senators. Give me a serious suggestion on how I might "do something real". I'm a voter, one person. I don't need to prove anything to you to voice my opinion on what I think those in power should do. If you don't want to read it, stop going to websites where people say things you don't like.


trumpt:

Here is the sentence from Fellowship that sparked your childish trolling:
People who look for and use renewable energy do not (as much) create this demand for wars to solve energy supply concerns.

Did you look in the parentheses?

People who look for and use renewable energy do not create as much demand for wars to solve energy supply concerns.

Do you have an argument against his logic or just a desire to lash out personally?
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #61 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I don't need to feel better. I'm not the one claiming an energy superiority over other people and using it to condemn a point of view. I assure you I could go well beyond your home if I wanted to condemn you for any reason. I can judge your ideas on their merits without personally attacking and condemning you though.

The point is that the ideas should stand by themselves and so should your actions. Token efforts that allow you to claim a right to judge others are the worst of all because they prevent real action.

Nick

I agree nothing is personal about this.
I just pointed in a direction to an author of a post before mine.

There are many directions.

I was with Heather the other night and we came to an intersection. There were 5 trucks and or suv's around us at the red light. I remember seeing 2 4 door full size trucks and 3 suv's. Each of the vehicles had one person in it. The driver.

I personally find it a shame that public transportation is not available as it should be.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #62 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Token efforts that allow you to claim a right to judge others are the worst of all because they prevent real action.

Nick

I disagree. I believe that when people are called to look at the fact that they drive vehicles that only get 13 miles per gallon that does get their attention. I used to listen to some conservative talk shows like Rush Limbaugh and he for example would talk about envirnmentalists as "envirnmentalist whackos" and "tree huggers" this method of putting a group in a place serves only to "ignore" the problem with the environment and energy supply. What I have done is take measures into my own hands in my life.

I once drove a truck that got 13 miles per gallon. If you drive 12,000 a year that is at $2.00 a gallon a total of 923 gal of fuel x $2.00 which is $1,846

I now drive a car that gets 42 miles per gal. If you drive 12,000 a year that is at $2.20 a gal a total of 285 gal of fuel x $2.20 which is $627

So even with a 20 cent higher cost per gal of Diesel vs. Unleaded fuel I pay roughly 1/3 a year the cost to drive the car and consume roughly 1/3 the gal of fuel.

I made the choice.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #63 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat


trumpt:

Here is the sentence from Fellowship that sparked your childish trolling:
People who look for and use renewable energy do not (as much) create this demand for wars to solve energy supply concerns.

Did you look in the parentheses?

People who look for and use renewable energy do not create as much demand for wars to solve energy supply concerns.

Do you have an argument against his logic or just a desire to lash out personally?

The problem with his logic is that there is not a person on this board who uses exclusively renewable energy sources. Even if there were there are people who would still have problems with it. There are people who have already expressed concerns with wind power affecting the environment. Also it makes war sound like a graduated scale when the reality is that it is not. We aren't only say... 70% invading Iraq as opposed to 85% invading Iraq thanks to biodiesel drivers.

As a result the conclusion becomes that there is basically blood on everyone's hands but a couple drops less on his personally because of the car he drives. If I slept with your wife and claimed I used a condom or was drunk you wouldn't accept my token gestures to have proven my attempts at virtue and I do not accept Fellow's token gestures to prove his virtue while condemning others. The reality is that if energy use condemns you, we should all be condemned.

I pointed this out not to condemn Fellowhip, but simply to point out he shouldn't feel he can condemn others.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #64 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
The problem with his logic is that there is not a person on this board who uses exclusively renewable energy sources. Even if there were there are people who would still have problems with it. There are people who have already expressed concerns with wind power affecting the environment. Also it makes war sound like a graduated scale when the reality is that it is not. We aren't only say... 70% invading Iraq as opposed to 85% invading Iraq thanks to biodiesel drivers.

As a result the conclusion becomes that there is basically blood on everyone's hands but a couple drops less on his personally because of the car he drives. If I slept with your wife and claimed I used a condom or was drunk you wouldn't accept my token gestures to have proven my attempts at virtue and I do not accept Fellow's token gestures to prove his virtue while condemning others. The reality is that if energy use condemns you, we should all be condemned.

I pointed this out not to condemn Fellowhip, but simply to point out he shouldn't feel he can condemn others.

Nick

I don't condemn anyone I simple said they should take notes.

If you know a good way to get a lower rate on your mortgage and you share that information with your neighbor should they moan and groan that you are condemning them simply because you point out that mortgage company xyz exists as an option for a lower rate?

That is all I did. I pointed out an option

Stop this condemn bs.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #65 of 128
What you fail to realize, nick, is that people who make 'token' efforts can make huge institutional changes, particularly when they are in decision-making positions. There has been a large movement within organizations to become more enviromentally friendly, and this can have a number of benefits depending on the type of company. For instance, most environmental efforts in the office world actually reduce costs.
post #66 of 128
I think there is a lot of false guilt here. There was another thread were buying a HUMMER for a company car was protrayed to be morally reprehensible -- not for conspicuos consumption, and taking advantage of a loophole so much as crossing a moral MPG line.

When did our bad habits become exonerated by the pharisaical logic? When the entire country is built around the freeway, and the commute, why is this reduced to an MPG issue, when it is just as much a result of opportunism by developers -- and apathy all around -- how much productive time is lost sitting in gridlock?

I think HUGE portion of the fault -- especially in places like DFW and elsewhere where land is plentiful, is urban sprawl, and a hideous lack of planning for mixed-use development, with a building industry that simply buys huge chunks of pasture, develops them in to essentially track housing, then waits for the public to float bond issues, or hire the appropriate consultants to tap Federal Funds for road improvements. I've seen these huge developments out in North Dallas -- HUGE, HUGE developments with a two-lane farm-to-market road leading up to the front gate! Those people then commute 30-40-50 miles EACH WAY to their work, and wonder why the go through cars every three or four years and they're blowing 2-3 hours a day!

I guess the really holy amoung us started our business very close to home and do not commute at all.(?) Does that mean I can take 'those commuters' to task who are polluting the environment 10 times as bad as I am, even with their concious laden hybrids?

This is an intricate problem with many facets, and sweeping the problem in it's entirety under the carpet, by sustituting a feel-good MPG rating for the solution is not going to fix anything.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #67 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
I agree nothing is personal about this.
I just pointed in a direction to an author of a post before mine.

There are many directions.

I was with Heather the other night and we came to an intersection. There were 5 trucks and or suv's around us at the red light. I remember seeing 2 4 door full size trucks and 3 suv's. Each of the vehicles had one person in it. The driver.

I personally find it a shame that public transportation is not available as it should be.

Fellows

Perhaps public transportation would be used if we didn't rely so much on single family homes for habitation. I mean single family homes really are the SUV's of housing aren't they? Cheap lumber and unscrupulous housing developers buy up cheap land, heck some of it used to even be farm land and then build these big houses with yards to lure people away from city centers and out to the suburbs or even the ex-urbs as they are now being called.

These single family home owners live in these houses out where there is no business and industry. So they commute into the city center for their employment. They create a massive need for highways, roads and yes, gas.

They could have easily been convinced to support the cost of public transportation if it still covered the city center, but when it has to stretch clear out the sprawl of the suburbs and beyond the cost becomes higher than the benefit. The population density is too low to support the use.

Of course when these folks spend so many hours on the road they begin to desire more safety and even more luxury for themselves. It makes the vehicle heavier, less gas efficient, but hey they can afford it since they saved so much on their housing by moving out from that expensive city center.

Wouldn't it be a terrible thing to know someone who had benefitted from encouraging such motivations?

Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
I don't condemn anyone I simple said they should take notes.

If you know a good way to get a lower rate on your mortgage and you share that information with your neighbor should they moan and groan that you are condemning them simply because you point out that mortgage company xyz exists as an option for a lower rate?

That is all I did. I pointed out an option

Stop this condemn bs.

Fellows

What you want him to take notes on is how you live and how you declare it to be better than how others live. Get over yourself and stop rationalizing your judgementalness. Your reasoning was that those that live as you do support peace and those who don't support war. (though only sort of...) If you really think that is the same as sharing information about a mortgage broker you are wrong. You were not sharing information to help him. You were clearly saying that your lifestyle choices should mean you have less blood on your own hands. That is what I call BS on.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #68 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
What you fail to realize, nick, is that people who make 'token' efforts can make huge institutional changes, particularly when they are in decision-making positions. There has been a large movement within organizations to become more enviromentally friendly, and this can have a number of benefits depending on the type of company. For instance, most environmental efforts in the office world actually reduce costs.

Why thank you,

I think what DMZ fails to see in his post below yours is that yes while in the DFW area and many others no doubt there are some who live 30 miles away from work and drive a tank (Hummer H2) (Ford Excursion) to work and back there are yet others, (many times they are more liberal and progressive I grant you who live in areas inside of town near by to public transportation and if they do drive they choose hybrids, Hondas and Volkswagans over the H2's and the Excursions.

DMZ is correct to note that the style of development is important for energy savings.

Addison Circle:



This type of development is more like that found in Europe where transportation is via public transportation.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #69 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I think HUGE portion of the fault -- especially in places like DFW and elsewhere where land is plentiful, is urban sprawl, and a hideous lack of planning for mixed-use development, with a building industry that simply buys huge chunks of pasture, develops them in to essentially track housing, then waits for the public to float bond issues, or hire the appropriate consultants to tap Federal Funds for road improvements.

I couldn't agree more.

But what is the solution? I ride a bike to work everyday and live in an area where everything I could possibly need (70+ restaraunts, two movie theaters, 20+ bars/coffee shops, 3 grocery stores, etc) is within a few blocks of my home. However, someone could get an estate out in the areas you describe for what folks pay for normal 3 br houses here. This also means that people who have a $200K limit for buying a house to raise a family simply cannot live here. There are areas around here where they would live, but then they would have to deal with crime, poor schools, etc. The problem is that these suburban developments fill a need that isn't being met any other way.

Edit: Seeing Fellowship's post, it's good to know there are some efforts in the right direction
post #70 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
What you fail to realize, nick, is that people who make 'token' efforts can make huge institutional changes, particularly when they are in decision-making positions. There has been a large movement within organizations to become more enviromentally friendly, and this can have a number of benefits depending on the type of company. For instance, most environmental efforts in the office world actually reduce costs.

Actually I realize exactly what you are talking about giant and that is all Naples was doing, calling for real action. It appeared to me to elude to organized and institutional action instead of just having people complain. (Thanks to evil South Park I am now forever forced to imagine hippies soaking up crunchy grooves while not acting when typing this)

Fellowship basically dismissed this call by telling him to take note that he drives a car that runs on vegetable oil. I do call that effort token and I not consider it to be a huge change nor do I consider it a small change within a large organization that can add up to a huge change.

We're actually on the same page here believe it or not.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #71 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman


What you want him to take notes on is how you live and how you declare it to be better than how others live. Get over yourself and stop rationalizing your judgementalness. Your reasoning was that those that live as you do support peace and those who don't support war. (though only sort of...) If you really think that is the same as sharing information about a mortgage broker you are wrong. You were not sharing information to help him. You were clearly saying that your lifestyle choices should mean you have less blood on your own hands. That is what I call BS on.

Nick

Nick come on man. We all post here and share our thoughts. I am sure you are pretty darn proud of "how you live" and "consider it better than how some others live". Otherwise why do you post?

You post to share your vantage point with the viewers of the forum. That is what I do and just about everyone here does.

You raise issues about women, teaching, schools, taxes, Kyoto etc.

Why? The same reason I raise issues. To get people thinking.

It is not personal. It is called dealing with issues.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #72 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Fellowship basically dismissed this call by telling him to take note that he drives a car that runs on vegetable oil. I do call that effort token and I not consider it to be a huge change nor do I consider it a small change within a large organization that can add up to a huge change.

We're actually on the same page here believe it or not.

Not at all.

Fellowship showed what he is doing. Even if he isn't actively doing anything toward that goal in his work life (which someone like him probably is or will), he is both adding support to the community behind this effort and expanding the demographic that companies have to cater to. The ramifications of his decisions go far beyond simply the reduction in fuel.
post #73 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
I couldn't agree more.

But what is the solution? I ride a bike to work everyday and live in an area where everything I could possibly need (70+ restaraunts, two movie theaters, 20+ bars/coffee shops, 3 grocery stores, etc) is within a few blocks of my home. However, someone could get an estate out in the areas you describe for what folks pay for normal 3 br houses here. This also means that people who have a $200K limit for buying a house to raise a family simply cannot live here. There are areas around here where they would live, but then they would have to deal with crime, poor schools, etc. The problem is that these suburban developments fill a need that isn't being met any other way.

Edit: Seeing Fellowship's post, it's good to know there are some efforts in the right direction


I hate to say it, but we might have end up with intolerable commutes before anything changes. The place Fellowship mentioned was a good example -- another example is Las Colinas in DFW -- complete with a man-made lake and canals.

Anyway, technology can help significantly -- you can literally run a just about any facet of many businesses from a distance, and have emplyees work out of their homes, the money and time saved on the commute alone adds a layer of efficiency.

This will take years to unravel.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #74 of 128
The old way of doing things was to make token efforts. Somolia and Haiti fell to pieces under Clinton's watch, and the Rowanda Genocide also occured (the UN troops were pulled out to facilitate the genocide). As president, you don't get the choice of "kill or not", you get the choice of "who dies".

IMHO, the Bush foreign policy has changed the way things will go for the next 50 years. We have seen from the past that giving aid to countries that are ruled by ruthless dictators (Somolia, Haiti) is worse than worthless - you have to replace the government first before any aid will be effective.

The Iraq invasion was a good idea, the thing that Bush did wrong was only send 100K troops - as a result the occupation was a keystone-kops like fiasco for a good while. Imagine the impact it would have had if they had sent 250K troops and the country had shaped up sooner.

If they repeal term limits and the next election is Bill Clinton vs George Bush, I don't think that the winner will change this basic policy of ass kicking.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #75 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
IMHO, the Bush foreign policy has changed the way things will go for the next 50 years. We have seen from the past that giving aid to countries that are ruled by ruthless dictators (Somolia, Haiti) is worse than worthless - you have to replace the government first before any aid will be effective.

The bush admin doesn't support dictators? You need to go back and rethink that one.
post #76 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
The bush admin doesn't support dictators? You need to go back and rethink that one.

I think that Clinton supported all dictators, Bush picks a few to beat up at a time.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #77 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Nick come on man. We all post here and share our thoughts. I am sure you are pretty darn proud of "how you live" and "consider it better than how some others live". Otherwise why do you post?

Why do I post? That is a pretty good question. Perhaps one day we will all have a pretty good answer.

With regard to my own life, I do the best I can with what I have. I believe a good percentage of people attempt the same. Obviously some don't and some never will. Within the scale of how we all live here though, unless someone can point at a chart of cumulative energy use and somehow show that theirs is substancially lower the someone else's AND show that it is a way most people could actually live their lives, then we (and you specifically) aren't really fit to judge someone.

I mean you still live in America, still use air conditioning and electricity, still drive, etc. Claiming you do it 66% less in ONE AREA and this wipes the blood off your hands is nonsense.

Quote:
You post to share your vantage point with the viewers of the forum. That is what I do and just about everyone here does.

I know.. and we all likely need help. Serious mental help.


Quote:
You raise issues about women, teaching, schools, taxes, Kyoto etc.

Why? The same reason I raise issues. To get people thinking.

Actually I raise some of them because they are injustices and instances where the government has harmed people. The second half is related to false solutions that end up harming people while eating up the resources that could have helped them. I find this especially true in matters like the environment and schools.


Quote:
It is not personal. It is called dealing with issues.

So deal with it without telling someone to take notes about your lifestyle and it won't be personal. Post links to foundations lobbying to provide tax credits for vehicular conversion or to pass laws that assist in this area. You don't have to lift yourself up or attempt to bring someone else down. You can inform and educate without pointing at yourself.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #78 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Not at all.

Fellowship showed what he is doing. Even if he isn't actively doing anything toward that goal in his work life (which someone like him probably is or will), he is both adding support to the community behind this effort and expanding the demographic that companies have to cater to. The ramifications of his decisions go far beyond simply the reduction in fuel.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the effectiveness of such actions.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #79 of 128
Unfortunately for you, the fact that environmental issues are a solid part of the decision-making process in any large organization show that they are effective, as does the huge market for environmentally friendly products. It's been this way for over a decade.
post #80 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Unfortunately for you, the fact that environmental issues are a solid part of the decision-making process in any large organization show that they are effective, as does the huge market for environmentally friendly products. It's been this way for over a decade.

You are welcome to show where I claimed that this was not so.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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